Observations of Flo.

I'm going to throw this open to everybun for your feedback and honest opinions please. Because I'm 4 hours in here with Flo and I'm scratching my head. Something isn't making sense. And I'll tell you why. Flo's 'reported' background is as follows: she was with a family, plus 2 other male bunnies. She is reported as spending hours and hours just sitting on the childrens laps being stroked and cuddled. The male bunnies passed within a few months of each other and it is being claimed the family then moved and could no longer look after Flo. So she was placd in the care of the rescue centre.
She's broken free from the outside hutch, broke into a neighbours garden and had to then be placed in the puppy kennels at the centre where she's been the last 2 weeks. She was reported to have been spayed but when the rescue centre scanned her (due to her behaviour), they discovered she hadn't been spayed at all. The rescue centre contacted local vets and none have any records. The former family 'thought' they had got her spayed but don't recall when or which vets.
That's the claimed background. So where are we after 4 hours?
She eats healthily enough - she's demolished a handful of select pellets. She likes celery and dried apple. And she has had plenty of drinking out of her bwol of water which is nice and positive. Looking at her, there seems to be a hint perhaps of dutch about her due to the colour seperation but I might be wrong. She seems to have long back legs - dare I say almost hare like, but I could be entirely wrong. I would say she is a young bunny - so the claimed age of 2-3 years would seem about right.
But I'm getting gut twitchy feelings. MAinly due to the fact that she is extremely anxious of hoomans. She's boxed me a couple of times as I introduced my hand slowly towards her. She refuses to allow any touching but she will approach for a sliver of dried apple. She's hacking lumps out of the cardboard boxes so goodness knows what state they will be in by the morning. She has gone through periods of being extremely relaxed and chilled and sploofing so she presents as being comfortable in the area - in fact she has now semi sploofed in front of me about 6 feet away and she is a very long rabbit.
She is investigating everything but I almost feel as if she's trying to work out how to escape? And she's not shown any interest or inquisitiveness in Leo through the glass in the door. Leo, on the other hand, is very nervous.
Now, I'm sure that some of this can be put down to settling in. I've suggested that she's been through a fair bit of upheaval the last 3-4 weeks and by any stretch, this will take an emotional toll. I get that. What I don't get is the complete distrust of hoomans from a rabbit who it is claimed, would spend hours and hours with.
I'm wondering if she has been used for breeding - hence the lack of corroberative evidence to support when and where she had been spayed (which of course she hadn't - and she went into stasis after the spay so you'd sort of know if you'd had your rabbit spayed). And I'm now doubting the absolute willingness to spend hours and hours being stroked by the children. It just doesn't seem to add up.
I'm not suggesting she has been mistreated - her coat looks beautiful (although I can't get near her to check) and she's active, keen to groom, happy to eat and very very relaxed in front of me. I'm talking away to her to make sure she is reassured and gets used to my voice.
You see, Leo was the complete opposite. He was happy to be stroked and would crave hooman interaction from the day we got him. But Flo? She's a complete opposite.
We'll clearly devote as much time and patience and care with her as we can. We're not going to rush anything but I'm nervous I have to be honest. I'm very nervous about the bonding in 5-6 weeks time and nervous about how she feels.
As I say, I think she is a pretty rabbit but golly she has some emotional issues for sure. She's ahppily grooming herself so she's clearly healthy in that respect and physically I can't see any concerns with her. Of course she has no medical history that we can trace - so we're starting from scratch now. She is fully vaccinated and we've got 5 days of panacaur left to administer.
All my bunnies have usually been much more hooman friendly from the outset but Flo here is very much the opposite.
Thoughts anybun?

Every Rabbit behaves differently, specially when they are in a strange place, so it's really very early days to worry about anything. She needs time to settle in but you could be right re trying to escape because once a Rabbit escapes they try to do it again, so beware about that. As I said I wouldn't let her free in the garden unless she is in a safe run, until she is settled.

I have only had rabbits that were not at all keen on human interaction (until Dusty). They would all hop away from me and wait until I left their area before eating.

Boxing is probably nerves and may also due to being spayed a bit later? I once knew a gorgeous unspayed doe who would try to box all who came near. She was in a small cage though (part of a zoo's collection). I managed to coax her into accepting head rubs after a few attempts (I was a zookeeper for a couple of summer seasons).

I feel sure that your little Flo will settle an and soon drop her defensive ways. She has everything on her side, not least caring intuitive people to care for her and a buck waiting in the wings.

Look forward to further updates and to pictures.

Thank you Tulsi and Tonibun. We've just discovered she has rather a soft spot for celery. She was hacking lumps out of the cardboard boxes so I got some fresh leafy celery that I'd bought today and took some of the lovely leafy stalks out and gace them to my wife who sat next to me. Flo came over, took the stalks out of my wifes hand AND allowed her to give her a gentle head stroke! And she kept coming back for more leafy celery. She seems to like celery alot and it's stopped her eating the cardboard box!
Thank you Tonibun about the garden. We won't be letting her out for at least a week - thankfully the weather is going to put paid to that.
I do feel that it's early days. I'm not expecting miracles and I do want her to feel a sense of belonging here expecially as she has beeen through so many changes in such a short time. It's unsettling for anyone.
Oh - she's hacking away at the box again.....
Craig x

Make sure she isn't eating the cardboard! They can get away with eating some but Jane would tell you it can cause a blockage.

I hate to say it but could she struggle with blokes? You said the rescue person was a lady?

Rodney took maybe 6 months to acclimatise to hubby's voice and being near him but was fairly happy to interact with me as long as all paws were on the floor fairly early on.

The RSPCA couldn't tell us anything officially but it was heavily hinted the poor boy had been left in a hutch unspayed and alone a lot. And he also was terrified of brooms and feet or hands moving towards him.

We came to the conclusion that his previous owner had been male or maybe a teen in the household that he had bad memories from.

He also was desperate to escape but in his case this calmed once he knew the exercise routine. He had evenings out with me and hubby would chat to us from the next room to get him used to his voice.

He's still terrified of rain bless him, nothing I can do to fix that, do wonder if his home was even waterproof. Honestly thinking about their histories makes me wish I had them from babies.

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tonibun said:

Make sure she isn't eating the cardboard! They can get away with eating some but Jane would tell you it can cause a blockage.

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Yeah - she is! That’s my worry. Plan b is to bring the outside hutch in but I’ll do that tomorrow.
It’s kind of bed time for her now - she doesn’t know that yet, but it is. So hopefully she’ll relax and have a quiet night here, warm and secure without dogs and cats going all night.

Poor little Flo has only recently had major surgery. It took me weeks to recover from my 'spay' and my hormones were so all over the place I actually slapped my then partner around the face once which wasn't deserved at all and quite out of character for me - and I have never done that with anyone since.

She must be such a confused little bun and I think it's great that she is relaxed enough to sploof and be fed by hand as it is such early days for her. If she has been used for breeding she may not be keen on a male bun coming near her as she probably associates male bunnies with being mated and Leo will just be wanting to make friends.

It's good that you are leaving it a few weeks before starting bonding. Hopefully by then she will feel more secure and happy with you and your wife and will have developed her own little routine. I would have thought the rescue would have mentioned if she was scared of humans.

You are so intuitive with your bunnies I am sure you will soon learn to understand her.

I agree with being careful of cardboard. It can cause a blockage or at least a gut slowdown. I would give her pear or apple sticks, or willow stuff. I wouldn’t try to stroke her, or even approach her, because she doesn’t know you yet and will see you as a threat. I would just leave her to settle. I would only go in her space to put food in or spot clean. And when she has settled in I would still not approach her, I would sit down on the floor and wait for her to come to you. You can try feeding her and see how it goes.

Maybe in the past with a trusted human she did allow contact but we don’t know.

I agree with others Craig, little Flo needs time settle in and find her own little routine. As soon as she feels safe, and associates you both with nice food and calm voices, I'm sure you'll see a difference. Good luck, she couldn't be in better hands x

Update for everybun.
Ok, I’m waiting for a call from the rescue because.....well, I’ll be honest, I’m feeling very anxious.
I’m very concerned about flo’s continued chomping of the cardboard boxes. What worries me is that in large quantities it’ll harm her and if cannot keep her safe I am failing in my responsibility and I take my responsibility as my priority. I cannot make or allow her to be unwell and if I fail in that, then I cannot allow her to be in my care as she will be at risk.
What I don’t understand is why. She might be stressed. It’s all new to her and I get that. But at the rate she’s eating cardboard then she is going to make a big problem.
That said, my wife suggested that instead of the cardboard boxes for her to use/hide in, we utilise the 3 large plastic carriers that we have. Ok, they’re only one way in, but she can’t chomp her way through them. And it also gets her used to the carriers I guess. So I’ve filled them with straw and hay and placed them round the kitchen/diner.
The rescue will ring me later and discuss. I’m just really stuck and after losing Lillian and Henry I really am very nervous and concerned that I don’t want flo to come to harm. She deserves better.��

That sounds like a good plan!

Blossom started bunstruction after arrival and was very vicious about it.

We restricted access so she only had a box for a few hours a day and it did settle. Perhaps it's her working her anxiety out?

Or it could be the entertainment she's used to if the rescue or her previous family used it to keep her occupied?

Or maybe a fibre craving?


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All rescue animals can act completely out of their real character when faced with the changes Flo has - moving multiple times, new houses, new smells, new people. I'd say it is far too early yet to make any accurate judgement on her, or distrust her history. Just make her space safe for her, even if that means removing cardboard, if she needs to chew then try and get some fresh wood for her to go for instead, and give her time. I really wouldn't push for human interaction, but just be available at times so she can approach if she wants to ask. Make all food available but via enrichment methods, even if this is simply scattering it around more - engaging the seeking system in ANY mammal will help to reduce stress. You could maybe make a snuffle box out of shallow tray, covered with hay, and then some dried herbs lightly sprinkled through, or small pieces of fresh food that is safe for her, or tiny pieces of chopped fruit or veg - whatever she can eat. Her pellets can be included in this. The aim is the snuffling and searching, not so much the food, so just your dried kitchen herbs would work fine.
Odin destroyed cardboard the first few days he was home with us, he's also been through a lot of changes but he very rarely touches it since those first few weeks - more so since he's had Freja too.
If you can't get wood, what about fibre blocks or hay cookies, something she can attack and shred like cardboard but isn't going to cause the same problems? Might make a mess more than getting eaten but does that matter?
Please give her more time, I can't imagine a better home for her, and if it is anxiety related then taking her back is only going to make it harder :-( Just give her chance to decompress and feel safe again, and heal.

Some rabbits do eat cardboard. Frosty could never be trusted with it because he always ate it. Hay cookies and branches are a good alternative that will keep her busy. So I would agree it’s best to remove the cardboard from her environment

Some rabbits are just not very human-friendly. She might become different in time, but she might not. I have had Tui from 3 months. She is totally non-aggressive to us or Tethra, overly gentle in fact, but she is only willing to stay and be stroked if she is eating and then it's obvious she is still wary. In her own way though she is a confident rabbit and when I look at the pics you posted yesterday it looks to me as though Flo is also confident. Otherwise she would not have relaxed enough to sploof etc so soon after arriving in a strange place. Here, I accept that this is how Tui is and I've never forced her to be any different.

The issue of the cardboard boxes is simple in my view. Just remove them! As others have said, replace them with rabbit-friendly sticks, which will be good for her digestion too. Far better not to have a hidey-hole than a problem with her tummy.

It's also of course far too early to judge how Flo will be once she has been with you a while and also once her hormones have subsided after her spay.

Who knows what she did or didn't do with the children where she lived previously. If the owners weren't sure whether she had been spayed or not, then I don't think you could rely on any other information.

Our Holly happily munches her way through cardboard boxes. She is only allowed to have them for a few hours each evening. Additional to the risk of her causing a blockage, there is a lot of noise as she rips them into chewable pieces
Richard

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One thing that often happens with rescue animals is that they lived in homes where they had no choices, they had handling inflicted on them with no way to escape, and some just give in and "accept" it, hence the possibility that she lay for hours with the children being true. But having been taken out of that environment, and being given more choices, she may just show behavioural changes in response to the previous trauma, but this can settle when she is able to feel safe, understood, and understands that she really does have choices in life.
I wonder if this happens more with prey animals - we see it an awful lot with horses that have been brought up in a traditional, punishment based life but are then give a life of choice, freedom, and a more natural lifestyle. They often initially develop sometimes quite severe behaviours including "aggression", but it is simply an expression of their recovery from previous traumas, and once they learn they are safe they then start to show their true selves.

Thank you all for the collective advice. I probably come over as inexperienced and needy. Truth is, I’m still very raw and sensitive about loosing Lillian and it’s always hard to move forward. I just don’t want flo to be at risk.
I’ve got various chew toys and things to occupy her - right now she’s having her pellets with panacaur on and woofing that down. She has quite a varied diet. She does have hay cookies and she was chomping on them earlier. I’ve sprinkled some dandelion over the pellets and she’s very much liking that.
She’s been quite chilled the last couple of hours - paws out head out of the main sleeping box and isn’t phased as much.
I agree that some signs she is showing would be typical of a more relaxed rabbit. And I’m not impatient with the fact she won’t let us strike her more. I’m sure that a very structured and slow approach is best and I’m not giving up on her. I do think that there is a very loving and trusting bunny beneath what she’s displaying. It’s a bit like a mask. She has to be feeling confused and our job is to stabilise that and her trust should grow. We seem to specialise in taking on these complicated bunnies.
Anyway, the centre have just rung and they’ve reassured me that we’re doing all the right things at the moment and they’ve reinforced what everybun has said so we’ll crack on with what we are doing.
Thank you all again for your great advice and support.
Craig x

Craig 1965 said:

Thank you all for the collective advice. I probably come over as inexperienced and needy. Truth is, I’m still very raw and sensitive about loosing Lillian and it’s always hard to move forward. I just don’t want flo to be at risk.
I’ve got various chew toys and things to occupy her - right now she’s having her pellets with panacaur on and woofing that down. She has quite a varied diet. She does have hay cookies and she was chomping on them earlier. I’ve sprinkled some dandelion over the pellets and she’s very much liking that.
She’s been quite chilled the last couple of hours - paws out head out of the main sleeping box and isn’t phased as much.
I agree that some signs she is showing would be typical of a more relaxed rabbit. And I’m not impatient with the fact she won’t let us strike her more. I’m sure that a very structured and slow approach is best and I’m not giving up on her. I do think that there is a very loving and trusting bunny beneath what she’s displaying. It’s a bit like a mask. She has to be feeling confused and our job is to stabilise that and her trust should grow. We seem to specialise in taking on these complicated bunnies.
Anyway, the centre have just rung and they’ve reassured me that we’re doing all the right things at the moment and they’ve reinforced what everybun has said so we’ll crack on with what we are doing.
Thank you all again for your great advice and support.
Craig x

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I don't think you are inexperienced and needy at all, I think you are grieving, are not really in the place to have wanted to take in another rabbit and therefore need it to be easy and stress free, but you are doing so for the wellbeing of your remaining rabbit. I think you are brave, not needy. Huge hugs from me, I know what it feels like to have a strange animal in your house when they are really not who you want, but I also firmly believe you can do this. I think it is worth saying that you don't need to love her, or feel affection towards her, or even feel like you want her right now, just do what you are doing, keep her safe, warm, fed and cared for, one day at a time. It gets easier.

dollyanna said:

I don't think you are inexperienced and needy at all, I think you are grieving, are not really in the place to have wanted to take in another rabbit and therefore need it to be easy and stress free, but you are doing so for the wellbeing of your remaining rabbit. I think you are brave, not needy. Huge hugs from me, I know what it feels like to have a strange animal in your house when they are really not who you want, but I also firmly believe you can do this. I think it is worth saying that you don't need to love her, or feel affection towards her, or even feel like you want her right now, just do what you are doing, keep her safe, warm, fed and cared for, one day at a time. It gets easier.

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Absolutely this