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Boy trouble
- Thread starter Truffpuff
- Start date
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
I hope you are thinking of writing a short paperback book MH of your bonding experiences!
You tell it so well and have the patience to write it all down. I ask people to ring me as I'm not so eloquent on paper
I hope so! I would definitely buy a copy. It would be amazing having a handbook.....bunnies for dummies haha! X
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
No worries! I hated bonding my pair, they were so aggressive to begin with, and it really does look horribly violent to us. But they don't mind in the slightest! If it's just lunging/nipping and Luther doesn't mind, then I would leave be. The first couple of days of our bond were really funny; Ossie would take up in a corner and Monty would keep approaching for a groom only to be nipped at, and every time he crawled up he had this really resigned look of "I suppose I have to keep trying!" One of the things you'll learn instinctively is when to leave them and when it's going to escalate and you need to step in, so don't worry about how you're doing
Good luck with the food! I hope they can share - as I say, there's all sorts of helpful things you can do once they'll eat together
Thank you so much for all your information and sharing all your experiences too.
So this evening we got all their favourite yummies, banana, banana chips, dandelions, beans and an apple from the garden spread along the middle of one side of the divide. The bunnies weren't into boxes moved around a bit before being released facing the sides not each other just how it worked well on Monday. They came out did their own thing, Truffle tucked in straight away and Luther wouldn't get the idea not to shove his face into Truffles face while he ate so after two times Truffle had enough and the biting started when Truffle nipped Luther in the cheek. Then it all kicked off both biting and pulling hair, we held our nerve and only got involved when they locked on and circled or did like crocodile rolls. Both are very determined to win and not relent at the moment.
To end it all on a positive, the next time they were away from each other we each gave one of them a treat which they both took, then we popped Luther on the other side of the barrier and they got dinner.
Now I went upstairs to check on them after my dinner because I forgot to put the box back that is protecting part of the carpet....truffle was sitting on the box and I noticed red. He was in a mood with me so I can't touch him but I looked close as possible, Luther has bitten Truffles ear. I think from a glance he's pulled the fur out there and caught his ear with his teeth. There's not loads of blood, more where Truffle has shaken and it flicked off. He is feeling very sorry for himself and frumpy, but he is picking at his dinner so I'm not worried too much.
Their interactions through the bars at the moment are a bit aggressive nipping. I don't know if the ear was during one of the scraps or if maybe Luther gor him through the bars...
We are still optimistic, but I don't see either rabbit giving up dominance any time soon. I hope this wound won't hinder putting them together tomorrow.
I'm going to print off everyone's helpful advice so I can keep reading it over and over to help and reassure me! It's so hard to watch because I don't like seeing anyone get hurt, though from the fur I think Luther might be winning as there is more white fluf.
Thanks again soooo much! I would never be able to do this without everyone being so helpful, I feel like you guys have my back xx
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
Thank you so much for your help. Yes I find it really hard to know when to leave it and when to step in, although I feel we were a bit better at seeing the signs today.
I have posted today's episode of Truffle and Luther above. Still feeling fairly confident and optimistic at the moment. Thank you so much I really appreciate your offer its really kind, I think we will definitely get you to pop down if possible if we don't seem to be getting any further and neither bun will give up trying to dominate because that is literally the limit of what we know etc.
We have given up on distraction during fights they just ignore us so we have to just go in with the oven mits....they are both stubborn!
Thanks again I really appreciate everything everyone has done for us x
MightyMax
Banned
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
Do you think that would be better because it's less familiar?
Monty's Human
Alpha Buck
You're all too kind!
I really have no experience though, just one incredibly stressful bond (I swear I aged ten years in as many hours). There are many people on here much better able to advise than I am!I'm sorry that today wasn't such a huge success. They are pains! Again if it helps, this still sounds exactly like my pair of pests. I watched them earlier and Ossie, having had all her spinach, turned round and literally snatched some from Monty's mouth then snatched his last bit before he could get to it (he wasn't too miffed, he's not a spinach fan :lol
Usual food protocol is for one to run off with it, the other chase, steal it, run off with it, be chased etc until it's gone. But they're perfectly non-violent about it, and happy to share pellets and hay. So hopefully the violence will calm down, but don't be surprised if this remains the way things are done - again, I think they've just learnt to tolerate each other doing this, it wasn't nearly so well received at first!Well done on staying back
I know it might feel like you left it too long because of the injury, but as I say, you'll get used to when to step in and when not, just like they do, and it sounds like you made the right calls this evenings. Obviously keep a close eye on the ear and take all the usual precautions with wounds, but I wouldn't be too worried. Monty injured his ear early on and he's just had a dented ear ever since, nothing worse than that. And both fighting for dominance is also completely normal. Again, ours was different because they were just together from the start, but after a few hours Ossie got bored of always retaliating and started letting Monty take more and more liberties before she responded - so one of them will slowly give in. What I wish someone had said to me during our bond (and which a couple of people did, in fairness
): You're doing a brilliant thing for your bunnies, you won't do it perfectly, but the very fact you're putting yourself through all this for them makes you a lovely human to have. It's just as stressful for you as for them, but when it works, you'll all be so happy. Hold on, keep saying you're doing just fine, and remember that they know what they're doing! (Alas all too well on occasion )
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
You're all too kind!
I'm sorry that today wasn't such a huge success. They are pains! Again if it helps, this still sounds exactly like my pair of pests. I watched them earlier and Ossie, having had all her spinach, turned round and literally snatched some from Monty's mouth then snatched his last bit before he could get to it (he wasn't too miffed, he's not a spinach fan :lol
Well done on staying back
What I wish someone had said to me during our bond (and which a couple of people did, in fairness
Aww thank you that really means a lot and the fact that your two buns didn't have a particularly smooth ride but still have ended up in a good place, is so encouraging and makes me feel full of hope.
They sounds so cheeky stealing each others food haha!! It's like they enjoy feeling "danger" and running away. I was literally chatting to Sam last night (we always have a post 'match' analysis to talk about how we feel and how it went lol) and just like your saying, they have learnt over the last 3-4 weeks what each others behaviours are and movement etc and are fine with it all with a barrier, but when there's no barrier they have to learn the language all over again because it's all changed.
The biggest concern I have is if Truffle gets injured badly he is pretty much unhandleable unless we are at the vets where he's good as gold (used to coming to work with me when u was working g in a vets). The ear from a distance I can see I think it's a hole now but it's clotted and dry so I'm not worried. My other worry (perhaps DP can weigh in as I know she was a VN so has experience) is after yesterday I have been worried what if they bite an ear and chomp down on the main artery in the middle what do you do?!
They seem to have calmed a bit since yesterday and the attacking through the bars they did all evening after seems to have settled so tonight I'm guessing it will be ok to put them together again?
As you seemed to have got success with just putting them together until finally they went "ok let's just stop and be ok with each other " do you think if these shorter visits we are doing dint seem to show signs of either backing down, it would be better to on the weekend when we have all day, just keep them together until there is a result? Maybe Sunday after they have a few more days of short visits x
Monty's Human
Alpha Buck
I honestly don't know about the biting and about putting them back together as I've never done bonding the way you're doing it, so I will leave that for someone who's better able to say
What I would say is that if you want to move to a "full time" bond (and if you can, again I'm not sure?) then I think it's much more stressful in the short term but - hopefully! - a much quicker way of doing it. We put ours together in the bathroom on the Saturday morning, then one of us had to be in the bathroom with them basically at all times until Sunday evening. We did take half an hour off for dinner on Saturday together (I draw the line at eating in the bathroom!) but otherwise we pulled "shifts" so that somebody was in the room with them at all times, including sleeping in the bath overnight. But by Sunday evening they'd settled right down, and we left them alone together with no problems Sunday night (probably only for about 4-5 hours, because partner's a night owl and I'm a morning bird, so we naturally were able to spend most of the time with them without disrupting our routines). After that, I was working in the next room all day and keeping an ear out.So a short bond needn't take very long until you can leave them unattended, but you do need to commit to being within earshot for a couple of days solid. Whether or not that works for you I don't know, but it is a commitment, so worth bearing in mind. There was also no real cut off point where they suddenly got on - it was just that their fighting gradually became less violent and more just scuffling for dominance, so we were able to leave them alone without injury. It took three or four days before they were sat side by side, and spent long periods sharing space in any real sense. We also had a set back about a week in, we put them in a new room and there was a fight, so they had to go back to the bathroom. I think a bond like that takes more "trust" in rabbits, in the sense that because it takes over your life so much, after a couple of days you have to be able to trust them to be alone and trust yourself to hear something kicking off and know to intervene. There's no real option of separating them once you start (unless the health of one rabbit needs it, obviously) and so you're committed to it come what may.
It's not a better or worse option than what you're doing, so really it's what would work for you and them. We didn't have the ability space-wise to do what you're doing, so we had to do a short-bond, and as horribly stressful as it was, I think it did work for us all. That said (and not brag, just to warn you!) I think you do have to be fairly resiliant to get through it - and fairly inured to violence, because for the first couple of days there's a lot of "fighting", and you can't get away from it or re-separate them. Just some thoughts on it, if you were thinking of switching methods!
I hope someone can offer more advice about the biting and putting them back together
JuliaW
Warren Scout
Hi. I found that exactly as you, when I tried to put my two together in a small pen the same behaviour just repeated itself despite them being kept in parallel runs for the rest of the time. This carried on for 2 weeks. Things only changed when like MH I bit the bullet and spent a whole Saturday in the bathroom neither had been in before. I started sitting on the floor so I was close enough to break up fighting and eventually managed to move to sitting on the toilet- what luxury! Fortunately things moved quickly forwards and amazingly Bob grumpily accepted her into the utility room and I've never separated them since. He still chases her sometimes but nothing comes of it and I haven't seen any plugs of fur for a while- the floor used to be littered with it. Hope things improve for you all soon. It is very stressful but you can only try your best - and you clearly are. ☺
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Truffpuff
Mama Doe
I honestly don't know about the biting and about putting them back together as I've never done bonding the way you're doing it, so I will leave that for someone who's better able to say
So a short bond needn't take very long until you can leave them unattended, but you do need to commit to being within earshot for a couple of days solid. Whether or not that works for you I don't know, but it is a commitment, so worth bearing in mind. There was also no real cut off point where they suddenly got on - it was just that their fighting gradually became less violent and more just scuffling for dominance, so we were able to leave them alone without injury. It took three or four days before they were sat side by side, and spent long periods sharing space in any real sense. We also had a set back about a week in, we put them in a new room and there was a fight, so they had to go back to the bathroom. I think a bond like that takes more "trust" in rabbits, in the sense that because it takes over your life so much, after a couple of days you have to be able to trust them to be alone and trust yourself to hear something kicking off and know to intervene. There's no real option of separating them once you start (unless the health of one rabbit needs it, obviously) and so you're committed to it come what may.
It's not a better or worse option than what you're doing, so really it's what would work for you and them. We didn't have the ability space-wise to do what you're doing, so we had to do a short-bond, and as horribly stressful as it was, I think it did work for us all. That said (and not brag, just to warn you!) I think you do have to be fairly resiliant to get through it - and fairly inured to violence, because for the first couple of days there's a lot of "fighting", and you can't get away from it or re-separate them. Just some thoughts on it, if you were thinking of switching methods!
I hope someone can offer more advice about the biting and putting them back together
Aww bless you sleeping in the bath! Thing is through this whole thing I keep saying it's not forever we just have to deal with what ever comes up and is best because it's such a short time in the grand scheme of life, and it will be worth it!
I think we will have a serious think tonight and the next few days if this will work or if we have to just go for it and surrender ourselves to the bathroom....thing is there isn't really any rooms besides the one they are in that Truffle hasn't been in, except our en suite so might have to be in there. I also need to be honest with myself if I would be able to stand the fights until they finally stop etc.
If there was an injury that wasn't bad enough to do anything about but there was blood did you carry on still?
I'm worried that it's going to start from scratch again when they eventually move to permanent residence downstairs because it was Truffles Kingdom (I have sprayed and scrubbed his hutch to within of its life to smell neutral and we are going to steam clean the carpet) so I'm dreading that bit too lol!
Thanks again for your help
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
Oh ok, it's good to hear that you were successful going from the method I'm doing to the way MH had to do it so that could be an option for us.
The routine to put them together is getting harder because we put both in a cardboard box then release on the same side, but they won't get in the boxes now and Truffle you can't pick up so it's stressful before we even get them together.
This might be a silly question, but did you find any changes in behaviour when they came out the bathroom? Because ours will be eventually living downstairs where Truffle used to have free reign. And did you have any bloodshed during the process?
Thank you for sharing your experience I really appreciate it
Monty's Human
Alpha Buck
Aww bless you sleeping in the bath! Thing is through this whole thing I keep saying it's not forever we just have to deal with what ever comes up and is best because it's such a short time in the grand scheme of life, and it will be worth it!
I think we will have a serious think tonight and the next few days if this will work or if we have to just go for it and surrender ourselves to the bathroom....thing is there isn't really any rooms besides the one they are in that Truffle hasn't been in, except our en suite so might have to be in there. I also need to be honest with myself if I would be able to stand the fights until they finally stop etc.
If there was an injury that wasn't bad enough to do anything about but there was blood did you carry on still?
I'm worried that it's going to start from scratch again when they eventually move to permanent residence downstairs because it was Truffles Kingdom (I have sprayed and scrubbed his hutch to within of its life to smell neutral and we are going to steam clean the carpet) so I'm dreading that bit too lol!
Thanks again for your help
Julia - that moment when you can stop looking at them for all of two minutes, it's like a milestone, isn't it?
Neither of mine ever really injured each other, it was just fur pulling thankfully, and we were able to prevent any worse (well, I got bitten, but my injuries don't count with that pair!) Partly I think because the bathroom is so small they weren't really able to get any purchase on each other, which is one benefit of moving in there.
Try not to worry too much about moving on from the first stage. I'm doing that now, so when the time comes, I am happy to keep doing my "Yes, they're all just pests!" posts if I'm helping at all. But for now just concentrate on getting them to sit peacefully together
And if you do decide to move into the bathroom and go "full time", I recommend a good book and also a laptop to hand. Come and post on here every time they're fraying your nerves, it is a huge relief!
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
Julia - that moment when you can stop looking at them for all of two minutes, it's like a milestone, isn't it?
Neither of mine ever really injured each other, it was just fur pulling thankfully, and we were able to prevent any worse (well, I got bitten, but my injuries don't count with that pair!) Partly I think because the bathroom is so small they weren't really able to get any purchase on each other, which is one benefit of moving in there.
Try not to worry too much about moving on from the first stage. I'm doing that now, so when the time comes, I am happy to keep doing my "Yes, they're all just pests!" posts if I'm helping at all. But for now just concentrate on getting them to sit peacefully together
See I did wonder if half the room is too much space. It's hard because as a human the thought of reducing space makes me think I would be more likely to start a fight....but maybe bunny business is different and being more smooshed makes them more comfortable?
Im not sure if it's good to keep going with Truffle having a bite in his ear because he will want revenge or if it's best to press on because this might be the beginning of dominance being established....bunnies are complicated!
I find your advice and replies really reassuring because even though there are differences in our methods it's good to know many of the behaviours are the same, and actually normal. It gives me confidence and more importantly hope! X
JuliaW
Warren Scout
Hi. I was nervous about injuries because Bob didn't mess about - he just went for her often without warning properly attempting to bite her and latch on. She suffered 2 bites that I didn't stop in time on her rump and shoulder. I've had to deal with abscesses from bites Bob had when we first had him so I really didn't want the fighting to go that far. I found that against a lot of advice sitting in the floor with them allowed more control stopping violent behaviour escalating. In the end wearing gardening gauntlets and waving a finger accompanied by a stern tone seemed to diffuse it. I found mischief and tinker's mum video really helpful and it is a bit unorthodox. Strangely once things had settled he accepted her into the rest of the house which was technically his quite easily. He is the boss though and she has had to learn that. And yes MH for several weeks after we had to keep pinching ourselves that the two rabbits who had appeared to hate each other were snuggled up!
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Truffpuff
Mama Doe
Thank you so much for your reply. It makes me feel more at ease knowing other people have similar or the same experience as me.
Haha yes we have found oven gloves to be a finger saviour so far and the one time I didn't put wellies on yesterday they both got my feet during a scuffle and roll. Lesson learned!
Thank you so much for all your help. I'm hoping I won't have to put them in the bathroom etc together but I feel like I would be more confident in doing it if needed after reading how yours went, after also trying the slow method first
Truffpuff
Mama Doe
So I'm a bit shocked and confused, but in no way complaining!
Tonight as the routine we have goes, bunnies in a box each with Truffle coming on to what ever side Luther is on in his box, then release the beasts but facing to the sides.
Truffle immediately found some left over apple from yesterday and had a munch, then Luther hopped over to him. They then sniffed noses then pulled back a bit and both hopped away from each other. Luther hopped towards the barrier in Truffles direction at the same time Truffle hopped away from him and even seemed to have a little scramble/panic trying to get over the cardboard box as if he was running away.
So because a fight didn't happen when the nose bump occurred or when they hopped in the same direction I said I think we should stop on the positive despite it being like 30 seconds again, but I thought that would be better than waiting for it to turn bad.
Strange that it appeared Truffle tried to "get away" from Luther. Either it was coincidence or maybe a dominance is being established...either way it's been very one way or the other so far! But I think it was another positive step despite being brief
Tonight as the routine we have goes, bunnies in a box each with Truffle coming on to what ever side Luther is on in his box, then release the beasts but facing to the sides.
Truffle immediately found some left over apple from yesterday and had a munch, then Luther hopped over to him. They then sniffed noses then pulled back a bit and both hopped away from each other. Luther hopped towards the barrier in Truffles direction at the same time Truffle hopped away from him and even seemed to have a little scramble/panic trying to get over the cardboard box as if he was running away.
So because a fight didn't happen when the nose bump occurred or when they hopped in the same direction I said I think we should stop on the positive despite it being like 30 seconds again, but I thought that would be better than waiting for it to turn bad.
Strange that it appeared Truffle tried to "get away" from Luther. Either it was coincidence or maybe a dominance is being established...either way it's been very one way or the other so far! But I think it was another positive step despite being brief
daphnephoebe
Wise Old Thumper
Been trying to catch up - sorry!
If a bite that serious were to happen - immediately separate. Then throw a towel over the bleeding bun and apply lots of pressure to the ear. Don't be tempted to look to see if it's stopped. Keep the pressure on & call your local vets (if OOH call your emergency vet). I've never known it to happen and can't imagine it ever would,but as they say never say never.
Sounds as if a subtle chase was happening. Or it could have been a normal bunny following routine. Obviously had to tell without seeing but sounds like it was pretty positive xx
We started with the slow method for the girls, then moved onto an intense bond over a week as keeping splitting them up was hindering their progress... they just simply couldn't figure out who was boss.
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If a bite that serious were to happen - immediately separate. Then throw a towel over the bleeding bun and apply lots of pressure to the ear. Don't be tempted to look to see if it's stopped. Keep the pressure on & call your local vets (if OOH call your emergency vet). I've never known it to happen and can't imagine it ever would,but as they say never say never.
Sounds as if a subtle chase was happening. Or it could have been a normal bunny following routine. Obviously had to tell without seeing but sounds like it was pretty positive xx
We started with the slow method for the girls, then moved onto an intense bond over a week as keeping splitting them up was hindering their progress... they just simply couldn't figure out who was boss.
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Truffpuff
Mama Doe
No worries, to be honest my thread has got a bit out of hand with over 100 comments now haha! I think by the time my boys are finally friends we will all have creating the bunny equivalent of war and piece lol!
Ahh thank you so much! I know it sounds like a very unlikely situation but Luther had a hole on his ear after being bullied by the bunnies he was with in the store, and now Truffle having a cut/hole - it make me think back to raising ear veins for ear catheters and that was it....worry. I feel better now I know immediate action to take, thank you.
I think the next few days will tell if it was just another random set of events that still mean a positive interaction, or if maybe Luther has shown dominance and Truffle is backing off.
Yes see that's how it looked at first with ours too, but I never expected Luther to cause any actual wounds so I guess see how we go from here and I think if like with yours there's no sign of either letting up we will have to intensify. I honestly never realised bunnies were such difficult but sensitive souls!
Thank you xx
