Hattie, dont know what to do :/

bluebunny said:

Ive had rabbits all my life and seriously have never had one as bad as her, taking her back would not be an easy decision but I have Clarence to think of aswell the reason I got her was for him as he was so depressed after Lyric and he is still now on his own Ive had her for nearly 2 months and her aggression has got worse not better if it was a case of being nervous she should of improved? She certainly doesn't lack any confidence!!!

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You said that when you first saw Hattie she looked very much like Lyric. Could it be that you are just not gelling with her because her personality is not like Lyric at all ?

I really do think that 2 months is no time at all and that sending her back would be extremely sad for her.

But it is your decision of course.

So you didn't get the Vet to take a look at her today ?

Jack's-Jane said:

You said that when you first saw Hattie she looked very much like Lyric. Could it be that you are just not gelling with her because her personality is not like Lyric at all ?

I really do think that 2 months is no time at all and that sending her back would be extremely sad for her.

But it is your decision of course.

So you didn't get the Vet to take a look at her today ?

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Other than being the same colour shes nothing like Lyric and shes not going to be big, its got nothing to do with not gelling I only got another rabbit for clarence as he was so sad, hes still on his own and im not sure keeping her is in her own intrests? I want my rabbits to be happy and if shes behaving that way could it mean shes not? Ive not made any decision yet I rang today asking for there and advice she called me back after speaking to the centre manager she said its not fair on Clarence and not sure its fair on Hattie either it was them that suggested taking her back not me, she didnt go to the vets as by the time they had called me back it was too late, im going to take her on monday

Confidence and fear are very different things. They can appear confident - when really it's an attack first mentality. The screaming would suggest extreme pain or extreme fear. Your vet can rule out one hopefully when you get to see them.

Aggressive buns just need time - it's so rewarding because when they eventually learn to trust you -it's genuine trust. The ones ive had have been incredibly intelligent too.

She had gone through the hormonal trauma of puberty, been separated from her friends and forced to live alone, been manhandled to the vets for jabs and spay, so been in pain, taken from the only home she's ever known, and forced to live alongside some male she doesn't know - all this from the perspective of not knowing what's going on - ie constant fear.

From her point of view, what positives can there possibly be in this world?

Our Olga is like this, she was fine until she was neutered and the vet nicked her intestine. I assume there may be a level of discomfort or an association of pain with handling after the op ( I've had it happen with a cat too!). She is happily bonded with Radish, but if we pick her up she may scream and is fairly aggressive. She gets handled as needed but we just accept she us not a cuddle bun.

Angie65 said:

Confidence and fear are very different things. They can appear confident - when really it's an attack first mentality. The screaming would suggest extreme pain or extreme fear. Your vet can rule out one hopefully when you get to see them.

Aggressive buns just need time - it's so rewarding because when they eventually learn to trust you -it's genuine trust. The ones ive had have been incredibly intelligent too.

She had gone through the hormonal trauma of puberty, been separated from her friends and forced to live alone, been manhandled to the vets for jabs and spay, so been in pain, taken from the only home she's ever known, and forced to live alongside some male she doesn't know - all this from the perspective of not knowing what's going on - ie constant fear.

From her point of view, what positives can there possibly be in this world?

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Ive just been stroking her through the bars on her head and she was ok with that, what do you suggest then?

bluebunny said:

Ive just been stroking her through the bars on her head and she was ok with that, what do you suggest then?

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More time and patience. Sitting with her and waiting for her to approach you. When she does at first dont touch her just talk to her. Occasionally offer her a treat, place it near you rather than hand feed initially to avoid her associating an approaching hand with food and thus *possibly* encouraging nipping of approaching hands. If she does try to nip you, dont mover away just turn your back on her and ignore her.

What environmental enrichment does she have ? Things like tunnels, digging boxes, logs to sit on etc.

If you Google 'Anne McBride Aggressive Rabbit' the first link is to a PDF Document about Rabbit aggression. For some reason I cant get the link onto here :?

Then there is The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/how

Jack's-Jane said:

More time and patience. Sitting with her and waiting for her to approach you. When she does at first dont touch her just talk to her. Occasionally offer her a treat, place it near you rather than hand feed initially to avoid her associating an approaching hand with food and thus *possibly* encouraging nipping of approaching hands. If she does try to nip you, dont mover away just turn your back on her and ignore her.

What environmental enrichment does she have ? Things like tunnels, digging boxes, logs to sit on etc.

If you Google 'Anne McBride Aggressive Rabbit' the first link is to a PDF Document about Rabbit aggression. For some reason I cant get the link onto here :?

Then there is The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/how

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I sit next to her pen several times a day and talk to her, I don't hand feed her anyway because she lunges at you and bites I just put it on the floor, As reguards clarence what do you suggest?

bluebunny said:

I sit next to her pen several times a day and talk to her, I don't hand feed her anyway because she lunges at you and bites I just put it on the floor, As reguards clarence what do you suggest?

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What do you mean ?

The tone of your posts read as though you have already decided that you are unable to keep Hattie, I may be reading them incorrectly though.

Jack's-Jane said:

What do you mean ?

The tone of your posts read as though you have already decided that you are unable to keep Hattie, I may be reading them incorrectly though.

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Ive not decieded anything yet, but do you think its ok for Clarence to be alone? Because thats the reason I got another rabbit

bluebunny said:

Ive not decieded anything yet, but do you think its ok for Clarence to be alone? Because thats the reason I got another rabbit

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First of all I would get the vet to check her over. This is extremely important.

If it were me in this position I would move her away from Clarence completely. I would give her time and patience so she can settle in - she sounds very frightened.

I would leave them apart for about a month.

I would then begin the bonding again, in a completely neutral area - ie where neither of them has been so that it is not the territory of either rabbit.

I appreciate that you must feel frustrated, but this little rabbit has had a terrible start and really deserves a chance. She could, after all, become a lovely wife for Clarence - but it is going to take time and effort.

If, however, you don't want to do all this and have, in your own mind, decided that you don't want her, then you will have to return her. I don't know what her fate will be then. And Clarence will still be on his own.

Although a vet check is worthwhile, it may not show up a chronic issue. We've had 3 very aggressive rabbits who screamed on handling. Rosie was perfectly understandable, was terrified after having cigarettes burnt onto her and was unbondable. We would handle her with padding and thick gloves, Mike doing the bulk of this, and by the time she died we were able to pick her up without protection.

Ziggy, as far as we know, had no reason to be aggressive and after regular handling was safe to handle, although he didn't enjoy it. He was bonded with Sorrell and although they were not cuddly they were happy with each other's company. I suspect it was something neurological with Ziggy as we found him collapsed one morning ( suspected fit) and he was dead on arrival at the vet.

Olga was one of the Aberdeen rescue buns, and given an emergency spay as we were told Domino had got into her cage 2 days before we picked her up. Unfortunately the vet nicked her small intestine during the op and she then reacted to the combi vaccine, showing slight signs of nodular myxo. I think she either associates handling with unpleasant treatment or she had a low level discomfort.
She is happily bonded with Domino and are very close, she is still aggressive on being picked up though.

I would suggest that even if given the all clear by the vet you try a short course of Metacam, if there is low level pain this should help her temper.
Personally I would not remove her from being beside Clarence, at least they have some company that way, and they can get used to each other. Slow bonding may be a better idea in this situation anyway.

If you feel it's too much, and I can understand it, it may be worth asking a sanctuary to help.
I don't know where you are based but Collielover in Fife specialises in aggressive buns.

Babsie said:

First of all I would get the vet to check her over. This is extremely important.

If it were me in this position I would move her away from Clarence completely. I would give her time and patience so she can settle in - she sounds very frightened.

I would leave them apart for about a month.

I would then begin the bonding again, in a completely neutral area - ie where neither of them has been so that it is not the territory of either rabbit.

I appreciate that you must feel frustrated, but this little rabbit has had a terrible start and really deserves a chance. She could, after all, become a lovely wife for Clarence - but it is going to take time and effort.

If, however, you don't want to do all this and have, in your own mind, decided that you don't want her, then you will have to return her. I don't know what her fate will be then. And Clarence will still be on his own.

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Shes not frightened at all!! I dont have anywhere to keep her as a single rabbit.they currently are seperated by a puppy pen and they do lie next to each other and touch noses its just when she actually gets loose with him, like I said no decision has been made yet the rspca would put her in a foster home and they said I could choose another partner for Clarence

halfpenny said:

Although a vet check is worthwhile, it may not show up a chronic issue. We've had 3 very aggressive rabbits who screamed on handling. Rosie was perfectly understandable, was terrified after having cigarettes burnt onto her and was unbondable. We would handle her with padding and thick gloves, Mike doing the bulk of this, and by the time she died we were able to pick her up without protection.

Ziggy, as far as we know, had no reason to be aggressive and after regular handling was safe to handle, although he didn't enjoy it. He was bonded with Sorrell and although they were not cuddly they were happy with each other's company. I suspect it was something neurological with Ziggy as we found him collapsed one morning ( suspected fit) and he was dead on arrival at the vet.

Olga was one of the Aberdeen rescue buns, and given an emergency spay as we were told Domino had got into her cage 2 days before we picked her up. Unfortunately the vet nicked her small intestine during the op and she then reacted to the combi vaccine, showing slight signs of nodular myxo. I think she either associates handling with unpleasant treatment or she had a low level discomfort.
She is happily bonded with Domino and are very close, she is still aggressive on being picked up though.

I would suggest that even if given the all clear by the vet you try a short course of Metacam, if there is low level pain this should help her temper.
Personally I would not remove her from being beside Clarence, at least they have some company that way, and they can get used to each other. Slow bonding may be a better idea in this situation anyway.

If you feel it's too much, and I can understand it, it may be worth asking a sanctuary to help.
I don't know where you are based but Collielover in Fife specialises in aggressive buns.

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Thank you x

Did the RSPCA not explain to you that she may be difficult to handle when you got her? and did they not try to bond her for you with Clarence? (sorry I might have missed a post)

I think you need to ask yourself if you are prepared to put in the hard work that is needed for this bewildered little bunny. If you can't then fair enough, some people can't, they find it very difficult, that they may have bitten off more than they can chew (excuse the pun) and don't have the time or patience that is needed. But it sounds like she very much needs that time and extra effort.

My little April (who we nicked named Natasha Knasher when we first got her) took practically a year to calm down to level where I thought there was great improvement in her behaviour. She still can turn when the mood takes her, but nothing like before; when I would just step in her run and she would charge with mouth wide open ready to take a chunk from my ankles/shoes. It was so slow, but each little step forward, felt such a great achievement. It made me want to do everything possible to make her feel secure. I used to just sit with her reading a book, or sitting on my laptop or talking to her; telling her I didn't care what she did to me, that I would still love her and not send her away. When we felt the time was right we eventually got her bonded at a rescue, which again has helped calm her some more, and now she has settled and grown into a busy & bright intelligent little girl.o bon

As for Clarence, is there somewhere you could send them to be bonded on completely neutral territory at all? maybe in a month or so depending on how you feel you are progressing with her. If it where me I'm not sure I would separate them completely, as I think it may be and idea for them to get used to each others smells etc. and sometimes the company of another rabbit; even if they are separated is better than no company at all. But since I haven't seen how they are in each other's presence I can't say for sure if that would be a good idea or not.

Anyway I wish you luck with whatever you decide.

ETA. Just seen your post that they are next to each other :thumb: as halfpenny said they may just need extra time to bond. I once had a bond that went on and off for six weeks - thought it would never happen, but eventually they were the most loved up bunnies we ever had

bluebunny said:

Shes not frightened at all!! I dont have anywhere to keep her as a single rabbit.they currently are seperated by a puppy pen and they do lie next to each other and touch noses its just when she actually gets loose with him, like I said no decision has been made yet the rspca would put her in a foster home and they said I could choose another partner for Clarence

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Have you tried bonding them properly in a neutral space. I'm afraid that if you let any two rabbits loose with each other and they are not bonded, there would be terrible fights.

Babsie said:

Have you tried bonding them properly in a neutral space. I'm afraid that if you let any two rabbits loose with each other and they are not bonded, there would be terrible fights.

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Not if you slow bond.

halfpenny said:

Not if you slow bond.

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I did ask whether the OP had tried bonding - in any way.

Babsie said:

Have you tried bonding them properly in a neutral space. I'm afraid that if you let any two rabbits loose with each other and they are not bonded, there would be terrible fights.

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Yes they have been tried several times

Ive had rabbits all my life and bonded several but a rabbit that shows Aggression like Hattie does is not easy cause me and Clarence get bitten like I said there fine side by side but when I put her with him just just attacks him

Babsie said:

I did ask whether the OP had tried bonding - in any way.

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Yes, but I don't even bond in a neutral space, they usually have both had access to it, and I don't bother neutralising either, other than a routine clean out, before trying another pair.
After bonding my pairs run side by side, alongside other pairs without referred aggression.