• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

RWA conference...we're back...some notes added :)

my vet went to the conference yesterday!! She said they are trailing a new gut stimulant called Motilium and apparently its been really effective. She said next time Noisette has a flare up (fingers cross it won't happen, but likelihood she will) she is going to try it on her! :)

Yep, that's Domperidone that Santa mentioned. I take it myself! :D
 
i will Ask for x-rays if/when Alvin has stasis on this new diet, his bloods were clear except something was high, a stress hormone i think which may be an issue one day if he starts to lose weight with no explanation (i think she said it eats muscles :oops:). Alvin had a minor slow down the day after i took him and holly to the vets so i think stress is a major factor for his stasis, plus i was too generous with fruit and pellets before February :oops::oops:

Vetergesic is an opiate yes. Buprenorphine.

With Alvin I would just concentrate on the diet for the mo, it can take time for the gut flora to establish themselves into a nice balance with dietary changes. Nino's arthritis is quite unusual for a young rabbit... it's probably related to congenital or early injury so don't stress about that. I'm just using it as an example of a missed underlying cause. Proper Xrays need a GA etc.. which is more stress and carries it's own risks of course. I think the most common underlying chronic pain that is missed is dental pain.
 
my vet went to the conference yesterday!! She said they are trailing a new gut stimulant called Motilium and apparently its been really effective. She said next time Noisette has a flare up (fingers cross it won't happen, but likelihood she will) she is going to try it on her! :)

Yeah that is Domperidone which Thumps has been on :)
 
I'm part way through writing up my notes on part 2 so will report back on my take on that side of things after lunch :wave:
 
Vetergesic is an opiate yes. Buprenorphine.

With Alvin I would just concentrate on the diet for the mo, it can take time for the gut flora to establish themselves into a nice balance with dietary changes. Nino's arthritis is quite unusual for a young rabbit... it's probably related to congenital or early injury so don't stress about that. I'm just using it as an example of a missed underlying cause. Proper Xrays need a GA etc.. which is more stress and carries it's own risks of course. I think the most common underlying chronic pain that is missed is dental pain.

yeah i do have a feeling it was diet related, but i always planned after the bloods to take the next step if it keeps happening. we had stasis twice over december and then in feb and they were all long drawn out ones. thanks to Judy and her amazing brambles hes so much better :D

it was another worry straight after pearl his poops went tiny but he soon perked up at the rescue. roller coster anyone. glad they are discussing Stasis because someone pointed out only the other day its not acutally put on any info sheets when we register our buns at vets :shock:
 
I was very interested to hear that they suggest Metacam is not strong enough to kill the initial pain of stasis and always start with opiates, not sure that is something most vets would consider at the moment.

That's really interesting as I took Artie to local vets with stasis July 2009 when I couldn't get him to FHB's (I was apprehensive about what treatment he would get, good but not rabbit specialists) and he was given Buprecare as well as Metacam. I was really impressed.

Any of my bunnies that have been admitted to FHB's with stasis in the last year or so (3 of them a time or two sadly) have been given Domperidone and sometimes I've been given some to give them at home, the only trouble for me is the volume of it - I can't hide it in food as it's a big dose.
 
That's really interesting as I took Artie to local vets with stasis July 2009 when I couldn't get him to FHB's (I was apprehensive about what treatment he would get, good but not rabbit specialists) and he was given Buprecare as well as Metacam. I was really impressed.

Any of my bunnies that have been admitted to FHB's with stasis in the last year or so (3 of them a time or two sadly) have been given Domperidone and sometimes I've been given some to give them at home, the only trouble for me is the volume of it - I can't hide it in food as it's a big dose.

I just goes to show the gap between the great vets and the not so good :)
 
GI stasis
Really interesting lecture, I learnt so much about the rabbit GI tract and the way it functions – fascinating and complex!

One thing I just noticed from the notes is that Anna highlights that rabbits presenting with stasis often try and chew cardboard/wood/paper to obtain fibre. Thinking back to the number of times I’ve seen on here ‘my rabbit has eaten part of a cardboard box, could this have caused a blockage?’ my interpretation of these notes is that maybe the chewing is an indication that the rabbit’s guts are already slowing down rather than the cause of it.

Many causes of GI stasis – common ones include poor diet not high enough in fibre or containing too much carbohydrates, pain, anorexia, dehydration, stress, post-surgical adhesions, etc etc.

I didn’t know that carbohydrate actually inhibits a bunny hormone called motilin which, as its name suggests, stimulates gut motility. So it’s another reason that it’s important that starchy/sugary treats are fed only sparingly as a treat.

Also, while the pH of an adult rabbit gut is from 1-2, it’s 5-6.5 in youngsters, which is why they are so sensitive to changes in diet/surroundings/stress etc as their guts aren’t acidic enough to kill off anything infectious that gets into their gut.

Blockage v GI stasis – the vast majority of cases of ‘hairballs’ or stomach blockages are actually not true blockages. It’s perfectly normal for there to be a lot of hair in rabbit stomachs and it usually only becomes a true blockage in long-haired rabbits like angoras or in matted rabbits where a bunny pulls off the matt and swallows it whole. In severe GI stasis the solid stomach mass can resemble a very solid hairball but aggressive medical intervention should normally be attempted and even very solid lumps will usually disperse.

Treatment: fluid therapy, from oral through to IV depending on severity of condition. Gut stimulants (if not blockage): metaclopromide and ranitidine. Metaclop stimulates the hind gut and ranitidine stimulates stomach emptying so they use both to work on the whole system. Also they are finding high incidence of stomach ulcers on post mortem so ranitidine has the added benefit of being anti-ulcer. If this is an additional source of pain to the rabbit, it again can help treat the stasis. They are also now just starting to use domperidone (sp?) and are finding that it can really give a boost where other drugs haven’t had the effect. If they think it’s a true blockage then they deal with the blockage first and then use stimulants – and sometimes they just massage the blockage down and break it up under GA rather than go for full-on surgery. And of course pain relief. In the initial stages they admit and give opiate pain relief, saying that abdominal pain is very severe and in humans you would be given opiates not paracetamol and therefore they give opiates rather than metacam initially, and move onto metacam once things are starting to move/settle. Also assisted feeding (e.g. critical care at 10ml/kg approx 4 times daily) and exercise also helps.

Liquid paraffin is contra-indicated (not to be used) as you’re trying to rehydrate not lubricate, and paraffin does not support this. They don’t use simethicone (infacol) as rabbits cannot burp so they don’t find it adds any value, although it’s unlikely to do any harm. They don’t advocate the use of pineapple/papaya to help break down hair as there is no evidence to support that this works, and believe that anecdotal evidence is due to the provision of rehydration/energy source. As it is sugary and therefore reduces gut motility and increases the risk of bacterial overgrowth especially clostridia which can kill, they don’t advise its use. They also don't advocate the giving of antibiotics 'just in case' unless there is a clear clinical need to do so.

The vast majority of cases presented as stasis or obstruction are treated medically with surgery only in cases of true blockage (and in this case quickly as it's an emergency), which is very rare and usually even the hardest of hairball-looking-"blockages" will resolve themselves through aggressive medical therapy.

Just one question, I thought it was t'other way around re area of activity of Metoclop'/Ranitidine :?
 
Oh yeah, my brain read one thing and my hands typed another :lol: Sorry :oops:

Either way, they're better used together than separately ;)

And that just goes to show why it's important for vets to look up the info themselves rather than just taking their client's word for it on stuff they've found online/heard other people say!
 
Oh yeah, my brain read one thing and my hands typed another :lol: Sorry :oops:

Either way, they're better used together than separately ;)

And that just goes to show why it's important for vets to look up the info themselves rather than just taking their client's word for it on stuff they've found online/heard other people say!

My brain is never co-ordinated with my mouth or any other part of my anatomy !! :lol:
 
Part 2...


Safe and deadly medicines for rabbits

Baytril as we know is licensed for rabbits and is very safe. But it isn’t suitable for all circumstances e.g. abscesses. Rather than spend weeks/months/years using trial and error, it is better to get a culture and sensitivity test at the start so you know what you’re dealing with. Hard to get from the nasal cavities, one of the best ways is to do a nasal flush and send that for analysis.

Studies show that baytril is more effective when given by injection rather than orally (77% bioavailability compared to 61% orally) and it works on peak concentration so in either case should be given as a large dose once daily rather than in split doses or in water. Don’t give it in drinking water as you can’t tell how much the rabbit is getting and it also doesn’t give you the peak concentration. They are now using up to 20mg/kg whereas earlier literature suggests 5mg/kg. Lots of short courses of baytril (less than 7-10 days) at low doses are probably helping to make bacteria more resistant to this drug. But it does have its uses and can also be safely given with metronidazole to give a much broader range of ‘cover’.

Penicillin – is particularly useful for syphilis and abscess treatment, must always be given by injection. Again can be combined with metronidazole in appropriate circumstances.

Panacur – Sharon’s view is that there is literally only one paper on the efficacy of fenbendazole (panacur) and that we are waving it about and prescribing it somewhat willy-nilly. That paper also only showed that panacur was effective if ec was introduced during the course of panacur, it does not demonstrate that panacur is effective if the infection already exists. It was also based on 28 days for no reason other than it was a nice neat month for the experiment, and the 9 days equally seems to have been plucked out of the air.

Obviously in the absence of anything else it’s the best we can do but there are concerns. For instance, if approx 52% of buns have the antibodies to ec, is that a big deal? Why are we trying to treat something that may not be there and isn’t a problem – we could be storing up resistance problems and we don’t know the long-term effects of panacur on the rabbits. (used the analogy that all rabbits carry pasteurella but we don’t go round giving all rabbits antibiotics just in case it causes a problem at some point in the future, as we don’t know if we can eliminate ec anyway). In particular, panacur attacks fast growing cells such as kidneys, intestines and bone marrow so there are concerns about its over use and long term effects. In theory it could therefore cause problems a few weeks after use, but there have been no studies on this so we don’t know at the moment. The overall thrust of this part was ‘we don’t know’, there is lots of best guess work going on so the position will no doubt develop over time.

Richard Saunders has just submitted his Diploma study based on ec/panacur in rabbits so ‘watch this space’ for the next conference where we will hopefully see some further info.

Liver lobe torsion
Again, probably of more significance to the vet stream but interesting nonetheless. Uncommon but have seen several cases in the south west. Interestingly seems to be much more common in French lops and dwarf lops, and question-marks over whether there are therefore genetic links. Seems to be linked to a random extra bit of liver which sticks out and can easily get twisted. Aggressive and quick abdominal surgery is required immediately after stabilisation; if you spend lots of time faffing with lots of diagnostics or take a wait-and-see approach, you’re likely to end up with the rabbit quickly dying. Out of the 10 cases they’ve dealt with, 2 have survived…and one went on to have a healthy litter (at which point Louise asked whether they should be doing this given that there may be genetic issues!) Fortunately, they answered that yes they agree and now in animals with this sort of thing they neuter at the same time!

Adrenal disease
Very common in neutered male ferrets and has been reported in neutered male rabbits. Both are seasonal breeders so although there are many differences between the species, there are question marks over whether similar mechanisms are in play which do not take place in cats/dogs.

Basically, ferrets release hormones in the pituitary gland and this stimulates the adrenal gland to produce sex hormones instead of the non-existent reproductive organs. This can lead to animals that have been neutered for a long time suddenly exhibiting sexual-type behaviour such as humping and aggression.

There are obviously many other causes of sudden changes in behaviour and these should all be considered first as there are much more likely reasons for changes such as pain or genuine behavioural reasons. But if found, invasive surgery is needed if the owner is potentially considering PTS if the problems are very bad. There’s still a lot we don’t know (e.g. does it cause health problems as well as behavioural) and it is early days in diagnosis/treatment but it is something that the more she looks for, the more she finds.

My main concern from the questions after the lecture were that owners may well start making the assumption that their rabbit has adrenal problems when in fact it’s just a simple bonding/behavioural issue!

Phew!
 
Thanks so much for taking the time to feedback all this info Alison !!

I am not at all surprised re the Fenbendazole issue and I am glad that the fact that it DOES potentially have negative side effects has been highlighted.


Now, could Sir Victor actually have an adrenal gland problem which causes his ADHD behaviour................ :? :roll: :lol:
 
Hmm, so it's probably best to only use Panacur when signs of EC start? Is that what that means? *is stupid, needs it in simple language*
 
Hmm, so it's probably best to only use Panacur when signs of EC start? Is that what that means? *is stupid, needs it in simple language*

AFAIK atm its a 'one off' 28 day course then no further courses unless symptoms of EC present.

However, I am now questioning the need for the 'one off' course :?
 
The only one of mine whose ever had a course that long is Mischa when he was ill. I think it was two tubes he had. 18+18. So 36 days.
 
The thing is no one really knows, all the study showed was buns treated with panacur before exposure to EC didn't contract it, so I guess it would be useful prior to introducing a new bun or bonding, but there doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence either way for how long an active case should be treated for...and no real evidence that owners need to regularly treat non symptomatic buns..
 
Yeah she didn't absolutely specify, but I certainly left with the inference that panacur is grossly over prescribed and for no apparent reason and that there is no evidence of a particular need or use to do either a 9 or a 28 day course at any time other than suspected actual infection. I'm not even sure it would be any use at the time of a new bond because if the partner is infected and it's not totally cleared by the 28 day use, it would just be picked up by the other one once the course is completed. So many tensions between 'it might be useful' and 'it might cause resistance or cause long-term health effects'.

Another piece of good news is that Sharon has just left Bristol (leaving it in the capable hands of Richard who takes over in charge) and is going to set up an exotics section at Nottingham University. Nottingham only opened its vet school 4 years ago so the first students are about to go into their final year and she's going to set up a final year compulsary section on exotics, obviously including rabbits which will be examinable for all students :)
 
Yeah she didn't absolutely specify, but I certainly left with the inference that panacur is grossly over prescribed and for no apparent reason and that there is no evidence of a particular need or use to do either a 9 or a 28 day course at any time other than suspected actual infection. I'm not even sure it would be any use at the time of a new bond because if the partner is infected and it's not totally cleared by the 28 day use, it would just be picked up by the other one once the course is completed. So many tensions between 'it might be useful' and 'it might cause resistance or cause long-term health effects'.

Another piece of good news is that Sharon has just left Bristol (leaving it in the capable hands of Richard who takes over in charge) and is going to set up an exotics section at Nottingham University. Nottingham only opened its vet school 4 years ago so the first students are about to go into their final year and she's going to set up a final year compulsary section on exotics, obviously including rabbits which will be examinable for all students :)

Great :D
 
Back
Top