Recurrent stasis- thoughts on possible causes? Diagnosed hepatic coccidiosis - FIXED

[MightyMax]

Honey is doing ok bit more lively and feisty than of late, though still not as much appetite as our other bunny ( that's fairly standard...). They had a nice run around in their run today.

Here they are enjoying a naughty treat of stuffed willow bell.

Glad to hear this auburnette

Love the photo!

 

[martlou]

Sorry to jump in here after a couple of weeks but we had a stasis prone bun as well (only 5 weeks between the last 2 episodes). To cut a long story short someone on here suggested that the fenugreek crunchy treat we were giving a couple per day might be the problem, as they were made of corn and some bunnies can't tolerate corn. We cut them out immediately and touch wood he's been fine ever since - now 7 months between episodes which was unheard of before, I know it's not guaranteed to have been the cause but it made sense of a few things that had happened. Do you give them to your bunnies?

Anyway I hope Honey is doing much better now. Such a worry isn't it?

 

[auburnette]

We don't give treats any more really :/ today's willow ball is the first they've had in months. Normally it's just oxbow timothy, occasional hay cookies, occasional ( not daily) handful of excel pellets between them. So i don't think there could be a cause there for the most recent bout of stasis although she did have some beet tops from the allotment. As far as green veg goes they have a romaine leaf each most days, sometimes they graze on the lawn, sometimes we give apple leaves/herbs from the veg trough. But i can't really think it'd be the beet leaves causing issues as the first round of stasis happened before we even grew any beets this year. I know what you mean about diet though - we used to change up their daily diet a lot more but it's been pretty routine lately as we've tried to eliminate potential causes.

 

[auburnette]

Ps. Your bunnies are adorable

 

[thumps_]

Honey is doing ok bit more lively and feisty than of late, though still not as much appetite as our other bunny ( that's fairly standard...). They had a nice run around in their run today.

Here they are enjoying a naughty treat of stuffed willow bell.

That is wonderful news. From a bun needing syringe feeding on CC to running round within 2 days is really :thumb: especially when we remember that there's an underlying liver infection which is being treated by Trimethoprim & sulphamethoxazole.
Do you know what type of infection it is? I'm just making a guess at the mo.
I hope you can get the herbal medicine with milk thistle seeds & dandelion root in it to support her liver function soon.

 

[jerseygirl]

A quick query, wouldn't the WBC be elevated after vaccinations? Or would that not be evident 3 weeks after the jabs.

What about some subQ fluids when she has an episode? Or is your vet hopeful that the increased food will be enough to head off lipidosis?

Is most of their greens from the allotment or do you sometimes have to buy some from the shops? I was reading a very interesting thread started by Thumps years ago about greens from some stores seeming to cause issues for some rabbits. Here's the link if you are interested: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?219251

What was the verdict with her teeth? Im sorry if I missed it.

Hope you can get to the bottom of what is setting this off in her!

 

[thumps_]

A quick query, wouldn't the WBC be elevated after vaccinations? Or would that not be evident 3 weeks after the jabs.

What about some subQ fluids when she has an episode? Or is your vet hopeful that the increased food will be enough to head off lipidosis?

Is most of their greens from the allotment or do you sometimes have to buy some from the shops? I was reading a very interesting thread started by Thumps years ago about greens from some stores seeming to cause issues for some rabbits. Here's the link if you are interested: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?219251

What was the verdict with her teeth? Im sorry if I missed it.

Hope you can get to the bottom of what is setting this off in her!

It was indeed a long time ago when we had issues with quite a few rabbits who went into stasis at certain times of year! This was not "normal stasis season" we found that our buns were also getting severe dysbiosis, which we couldn't restabilise for 3-4 + months. On this particular occasion there was some sudden very cold weather & mild frost damage to veg. Some shops had tried to prolong shelf life by washing the freshly picked veg in a strongly chlorinated solution as disinfectant. The problem was that the disinfectant adversely affected the microorganisms on the veg - hence the problem. It hadn't happened before or since AFAIK.
Therefore not applicable here.
My only comment re shop veg is that loose veg are usually superior (less bacteriological issues) to wrapped veg.

 

[jerseygirl]

It was indeed a long time ago when we had issues with quite a few rabbits who went into stasis at certain times of year! This was not "normal stasis season" we found that our buns were also getting severe dysbiosis, which we couldn't restabilise for 3-4 + months. On this particular occasion there was some sudden very cold weather & mild frost damage to veg. Some shops had tried to prolong shelf life by washing the freshly picked veg in a strongly chlorinated solution as disinfectant. The problem was that the disinfectant adversely affected the microorganisms on the veg - hence the problem. It hadn't happened before or since AFAIK.
Therefore not applicable here.
My only comment re shop veg is that loose veg are usually superior (less bacteriological issues) to wrapped veg.

Oh thank you for that, Thumps. I missed that in the original thread.

 

[thumps_]

Oh thank you for that, Thumps. I missed that in the original thread.

Not at all! You can't see this thread as at the original time. you'd have thought the buns of Britain had gone on pooh strike! :lol:
From memmory it was the main time when people converted to offering tree leaves together with hay as the fibre component of the diet, & moved to growing pots of herbs, or forage both fresh & dried for the veg component of the diet. As per the sticky in diet - diet for stasis prone bun.

 

[martlou]

Ps. Your bunnies are adorable

Thank you Hope Honey is doing well x

 

[auburnette]

Re type of infection I think Mark suspected potential hepatic coccidiosis, although her fur is clean / poo well shaped. So hopefully not a serious case as it sounds quite nasty, but she stands a good chance being a bit older than rabbits who would typically succumb and hopefully with more natural immunity. We've been trying to keep their cage really clean although both insist on sleeping next to the litter tray...

He didn't suspect teeth as a cause given her history, though if she needs further scans we may have her teeth looked at anyway to be sure.

We buy romaine from the supermarket, all other veg/greens is from the allotment. Interesting re issues caused by shop veg - might switch them off romaine gradually. We give it as a way of getting more water into Honey mainly!

jerseygirl, i don't know re elevated WBC - we mentioned it to the vet but he didn't seem bothered by that. He focused on the fact that her white blood cells had an 'inverted relationship' - pics below.




We just went for a followup, Mark was pleased with progress as she has put on 100g and is almost back to usual weight (dread to think how much Treacle has put on!). She got another shot of anabolic steroids and will stay on Sulfatrim for a month. Dropping Metacam down to 1x a day, she has been off gut drugs for almost a week now

 

[thumps_]

That's great news re Honey .
You've done really well to get her through this.:thumb:

Thankyou for posting the blood results. I now understand what Mark means by the inverted relationaship.

 

[MightyMax]

Re type of infection I think Mark suspected potential hepatic coccidiosis, although her fur is clean / poo well shaped. So hopefully not a serious case as it sounds quite nasty, but she stands a good chance being a bit older than rabbits who would typically succumb and hopefully with more natural immunity. We've been trying to keep their cage really clean although both insist on sleeping next to the litter tray...

He didn't suspect teeth as a cause given her history, though if she needs further scans we may have her teeth looked at anyway to be sure.

We buy romaine from the supermarket, all other veg/greens is from the allotment. Interesting re issues caused by shop veg - might switch them off romaine gradually. We give it as a way of getting more water into Honey mainly!

jerseygirl, i don't know re elevated WBC - we mentioned it to the vet but he didn't seem bothered by that. He focused on the fact that her white blood cells had an 'inverted relationship' - pics below.




We just went for a followup, Mark was pleased with progress as she has put on 100g and is almost back to usual weight (dread to think how much Treacle has put on!). She got another shot of anabolic steroids and will stay on Sulfatrim for a month. Dropping Metacam down to 1x a day, she has been off gut drugs for almost a week now

Thank you for posting her blood results. It sounds like things are going well

I'm a fan of anabolic steroids since I've seen again recently how useful they can be.

Continued good vibes x

 

[auburnette]

Thanks both. I did some research and interestingly tree leaves which are high in tannins are recommended as a good diet to prevent coccidosis problems, so we will definitely keep giving them twigs and leaves as a part of their regular intake. I also read that hepatic coccidosis can lead to vitamin uptake problems so Honey is getting the Excel recovery nuggets which are vitamin enriched (Treacle snaffles a couple even with my best intentions). We are mixing Oxbow timothy and excel forage and will keep offering a variety of strawberry leaves, dandelion, marigold and herbs to make sure she's getting what she needs.

She is normally the digger/gnawer of the pair (Treacle is a very lazy Standard Rex who prefers to sleep) and in the last few days she's been back digging big holes in the earth of their outside run and remodelling their house - i hadn't realised but she hasn't been digging/gnawing for a while, hopefully she's feeling better now that she's back at it!

 

[thumps_]

Thanks both. I did some research and interestingly tree leaves which are high in tannins are recommended as a good diet to prevent coccidosis problems, so we will definitely keep giving them twigs and leaves as a part of their regular intake. I also read that hepatic coccidosis can lead to vitamin uptake problems so Honey is getting the Excel recovery nuggets which are vitamin enriched (Treacle snaffles a couple even with my best intentions). We are mixing Oxbow timothy and excel forage and will keep offering a variety of strawberry leaves, dandelion, marigold and herbs to make sure she's getting what she needs.

She is normally the digger/gnawer of the pair (Treacle is a very lazy Standard Rex who prefers to sleep) and in the last few days she's been back digging big holes in the earth of their outside run and remodelling their house - i hadn't realised but she hasn't been digging/gnawing for a while, hopefully she's feeling better now that she's back at it!

That's the best news ever I think you're spot on right about her feeling better to be digging again. It's that back leg movement to clear the soil from the excavation. Seems to me that it makes their tummies like a concertina, & a big ouch! if the liver is tender from infection.
Yes, re the tree leaves too, although this isn't why we started to give them. Some tree leaves eg oak are NOT to be given because the tannin levels are too high.
The highest safe tannin levels I know of are blackthorn leaves, always gathered after the sloes are fully ripe with a whitish bloom on them. (Sorry I can't ask my rabbits why this is so, but it's important)
I don't come across large numbers of buns with intestinal coccidiosis, but yes, even blackthorn does not treat the coccidiosis itself. (There are several different species of this parasite each of which live only in certain areas of the gut/liver)

What blackthorn & other safe tree leaves seem to do, is to reduce the risk of coccidial infection, as well as help to normalise the GI tract micro organisms, especially by inhibiting the bacteria which produce toxins which prevent gut contraction.

As a spin off blackthorn treats (kills) pinworms (threadworms) in rabbits.

I lost contact with the "cutting edge" of the veterinary world when my exotics vet left some 6 years ago. We were in at the very beginning of this, when Thumper's caecum failed to fill for about 10 months, & restarted when he got fresh blackthorn.
I'd be very grateful if Mark has any "off the record" comments about tannins, tree leaves & rabbit GI tract health.

 

[jerseygirl]

That is wonderful that you are seeing a resurgence of normal rabbity activity with the digging and chewing.

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks both. I did some research and interestingly tree leaves which are high in tannins are recommended as a good diet to prevent coccidosis problems, so we will definitely keep giving them twigs and leaves as a part of their regular intake. I also read that hepatic coccidosis can lead to vitamin uptake problems so Honey is getting the Excel recovery nuggets which are vitamin enriched (Treacle snaffles a couple even with my best intentions). We are mixing Oxbow timothy and excel forage and will keep offering a variety of strawberry leaves, dandelion, marigold and herbs to make sure she's getting what she needs.

She is normally the digger/gnawer of the pair (Treacle is a very lazy Standard Rex who prefers to sleep) and in the last few days she's been back digging big holes in the earth of their outside run and remodelling their house - i hadn't realised but she hasn't been digging/gnawing for a while, hopefully she's feeling better now that she's back at it!

Glad to hear about the rabbity behaviour

I'm a latecomer to leaves, having foraged for years .. But with the help of some RU'ers I'm managing to build up a collection!
Thank you to so many people for help and encouragement

 

[auburnette]

Honey's eaten lots of bramble and raspberry leaves today as well as some apple leaves and marigold; all went down well



Treacle has had her share too:




And a great deal of sleep...:

 

[thumps_]

Honey & Treacle are absolutely adorable.
Thank you for the photos
I think see what you mean by home modification in Treacle's room. I'm always fascinated by this.

ETA re wild forage, tree leaves etc. only, my own buns & many others seem to know, or rapidly learn what to eat to make them well. You may well start to find that you can pick up very early that bunny is feeling unwell by a change in their preferred food.
It's not so much that they like the taste of it, as that it makes them feel better! They really are masters of herbal medicine!

 

[MightyMax]

Honey & Treacle are absolutely adorable.
Thank you for the photos
I think see what you mean by home modification in Treacle's room. I'm always fascinated by this.

ETA re wild forage, tree leaves etc. only, my own buns & many others seem to know, or rapidly learn what to eat to make them well. You may well start to find that you can pick up very early that bunny is feeling unwell by a change in their preferred food.
It's not so much that they like the taste of it, as that it makes them feel better! They really are masters of herbal medicine!

Thats a fantastic phrase, and so true!