Rabbit Vaccinaton Testing

[Lizzie]

I would just like to say something from a very personal and extremely poignant viewpoint! There is never a scientific answer without a "control". My beautiful and very precious cocker spaniel, Harriet, had to have her left hind leg amputated in April this year due to what we now know to be a pernicious osteosarcoma: there was no way that I was going to subject my faithful pal to chemotherapy, which is much less refined in animals than it is in human beings, so I opted with my lovely vet's fervent approval to go down the homeopathic route and we have been administering such medication now for 16 weeks - it has been extremely time-consuming, taking 2 hours every single evening of every single week but oh so well worth it to see how well Harriet is doing.

However, none of us knows for sure just why she is doing so well - is it the homeopathic medication? Or is it the fact that the original surgery was, by my vet's recent admission, so very radical? The truth is we do not know - my regular vet was obviously quite impressed when examining her 2 weeks ago to find her in such good condition but without a "control" we will never be sure whether this is due to the radical and timely surgery or the homeopathic medication. The one certain thing is that I was and would never be prepared to take any chances but without some chances being taken somewhere along the line, there would be no progress and I daresay that my precious girl would not be where she is today, in the condition that she is, if someone had not dared to risk an experiment at some point.

Whatever the answer is I will always be grateful to both my conventional vet and my homeopathic vet for the extra time that I have been able to spend with this lovely, adorable and very precious creature.

 

[sunshine]

:thumb: Well said and done Lizzie!

 

[anon101]

Louise, could you point me to some research that the homoeopathic solution towards both myxi and VHD actually works? I have looked into this and was put off by the lack of suitable reference material to prove that it actually works.

As yet I have not come across any research that show's the Homeopathic way work's. Hence why I say in my posts I am still looking into it.

I am as we speak in touch with two company’s that make Homeopathic remedies. I am hoping to find out more information over the next few weeks.

At the moment there is no Vaccine for Pasturella. There is a homeopathic remedy out there to help protect your bun's from it.

If I don’t try the Mxyi and VHD one's I will certainly be trying the Pasturella one.

I believe Shantel on this form is using the Mxyi Homeopathic remedy??

Maybe she could let us know how she is getting on?

Louise

 

[anon101]

A woman came into my shop the other day and told me none of her children have been vaccinated for anything...that is how epidemics are caused. Sensitive and interesting issue.

I also know a family that would not let there then children have their vaccines. There all now well into there 20's and there some of the healthiest people I know.

I think there reason's where that a close friend to them had, had there child vaccinated and had some very serious side affects from the vaccine resulting in server disabilities.

After hearing something like that especially from a friend it would certainly make me think twice about vaccinating my child.

Another example would be my OH family. All his brother's and sister's we never vaccinated against anything and they have never caught anything. There all in there 30's now.

I would not say these are the people that start epidemics. These are people that are going with what they believe is right.

It must be an extremely tough decision for parent's to make with all this conflicting information on vaccines.

Louise

 

[anon101]

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.
Louise

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".

Would you describe yourself as an animal rights activist?

Why do you ask?

Are you?

I'm an animal right's supporter not activist.

Louise

 

[anon101]

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.
Louise

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".quote]

I meant people who believe in animal right's/welfare and avoid products that are tested on animal's. I would assume that would be the majority of us.

Do you avoid company's like P&G Bob?

Louise

 

[Bob]

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".

I meant people who believe in animal right's/welfare and avoid products that are tested on animal's. I would assume that would be the majority of us.

Do you avoid company's like P&G Bob?

Louise

Thank you for clarifying that Louise and no, I do not avoid P&G at all. I am actually rather partial to thier tea bags :wink:

On a more serious note, I possibly share your passion for animal welfare but have little time for animal rights.
Animal rights (IMO) is more about making people feel better rather than actual doing anything worthwhile for animals.

Perhaps on this one we had better agree to disagree!!

Best wishes

 

[Yvonne]

re: pasturella vaccine - a vaccine has been trialled and the results were postive but the cost of mass producing the vaccine against the expected return means it is unlikely it will become available in the near future. 3 of my rabbits were vacinated against it as I purchased them from a breeder involved in the trials but this was over 12mths ago so I doubt the vaccine is still effective.

Yvonne

 

[Adele]

re: pasturella vaccine - a vaccine has been trialled and the results were postive but the cost of mass producing the vaccine against the expected return means it is unlikely it will become available in the near future.

Yvonne

Thats very interesting to know Yvonne, shame it all has to come down to money in the end isnt it, never mind, there is some hope on the horizon at least

 

[Pendragon]

Getting back to the original subject - personally I am dubious about homoeopathic vaccines and would not choose to use them against life-threatening diseases.

For those illnesses and diseases which don't have vaccines, I might consider it.

My reasons are thus: some years ago a well known breeder of Burmese cats decided to use homoeopathic vaccine against Feline Infectious Enteritis (also known as Panleucopaenia) which is a killer. She ended up with an epidemic of FIE in her cats and lost several.

All cats taken to shows muct have current up to date vaccination certificates for FIE (Feline Calicivirus and Herpesvirus inoculations are optional), and the GCCF (Governing Council of the Cat Fancy) now states that homoeopathic vaccines for FIE are not permissible.

In the olden days before vaccines were available, FIE was known as "show fever" and a great many cats would die from it after a show. In Victorian times when cat shows began, it was said that a show appearance was a "death warrant" for a cat.... When vaccines became available in the 1950's, the changes were amazing and it became safe to show them for the first time.

FIE is now fairly uncommon as most cats are routinely vaccinated against it, but can be endemic in unvaccinated feral populations. The experience above using homoeopathic vaccines illustrates how much the conventional vaccination does protect them.... and I wouldn't like to gamble with a killer disease.

 

[anon101]

Getting back to the original subject - personally I am dubious about homoeopathic vaccines and would not choose to use them against life-threatening diseases.

One thing I would like to make clear is these Homeopathic remedie's are not in a vaccine/injection form. There in a tablet form or a tincture (liquid form) that you dilute in the Rabbits water.

Louise

 

[Pendragon]

One thing I would like to make clear is these Homeopathic remedie's are not in a vaccine/injection form. There in a tablet form or a tincture (liquid form) that you dilute in the Rabbits water.

Good point Louise.... you are correct there

However, knowing about the experience of the cat person, I will choose full conventional vaccination or no vaccination at all... half-measures - to me - don't appear to be worthwhile and can induce a sense of false security.

During a myxomatosis outbreak in my own rabbits 28 years ago I had to specially order vaccine from my vets.... it took a week to arrive and I was shown by the vet how to vaccinate my own (I was 14 years old at the time!). That vaccine was "Fibroma of Shope" which was the only one available back then.

I do wonder about "live" vaccines as in cats, as giving a live Calici/Herpesvirus vaccine can induce a temporary mild form of the disease while it activates the antibodies.

Hearing that the current Myxomavirus vaccine is live makes me cautious, since in some cases, while cats are undergoing the transition, they can end up with permanent problems with calici/herpesvirus. In most cases drug companies are choosing to give killed vaccines wherever possible and I don't think any "live" cat vaccines are available now... they were hard to find even 20 years ago.... I had my first litter of kittens done by live vaccine as that is what my local vets used, but never again.... they really did get sick, and I had to tell their new owners that, and they could not go to new homes for another 2 weeks... nobody anticipating welcoming a fit & healthy new pet to their home is going to like hearing that, regardless of the cause! Many dishonest breeders used that kind of thing as an excuse, to cover up a subclinical infection of calici/herpesvirus... but mine were tested clear.

The main problem is that while the cats were going through the transition after vaccination, they were actually shedding the virus which could infect susceptible/non vaccinated cats, or even induce a flare up in vaccinated ones. It was said that ones vaccinated by the live virus were stronger and more resistant than ones given killed vaccines, but at what cost?

I am cynical yes - and I am also wondering if the current Myxoma vaccine is possibly triggering effects.... our hands are in the drug companies and if they'd made a faulty batch, we'd know about it first.... it would probably take a lawsuit to persuade them they were wrong or had made a mistake, ****-up or just got it wrong. It happens in cat & dog vaccines all the time! Why not rabbit ones? And also consider: why did the cat vaccine manufacturers abandon live vaccines at least 15 years ago, in favour of "killed" ?

Hmmm..... I am pondering and thinking aloud here but I am sure this angle of thought will be new to some....

 

[shantel]

I use homeopathic medicines for my rabbits - for myxi and vhd. I've been using it for several months, and my rabbits are in good health. However, like everybody else I am aware there is no sure fire evidence that the homepathic treatment works, other than knowing other people who have 'vaccinated' this way for many years without any fatalities. I have given this route of a lot of thought, and have researched homeopathy as best I can and decided this was the right thing for my bunnies.

 

[gina paul]

cheeky is due his booster this coming thursday . he gets the myxo one first and then goes back for the vhd 2 weeks later . he hasn,t ever had any problems but this thread has caused me some concern and made me think , i,ll probably discuss it with his vet first .

 

[anon101]

Shantel,

Do you use Ainsworth's?

Louise

 

[shantel]

Yes I do Louise

 

[Jo]

I work as a veterinary nurse in a practice which is very rabbit friendly. I have attended many courses and C.P.D.s in rabbit health, anaesthesia and analgesia.I have seven rabbits at the moment and have kept them for over twenty years. I also rehabilitate and hand rear lots of wild rabbits.

I must admit to being a little astonished at the thread of "should we test rabbit vaccines on rabbits" where would you propose we test them?
I nurse bunnies with myxo quite often although most end up dead. VHD rabbits are more than likely dead before we see them and I have the joyous task of assisting in their post mortems.

Medicines, in my opinion, NEED to be tested and if it is a rabbit vaccine tested on a rabbit, so be it! Distasteful, but very neccessary.

I am also suspicious about homeopathic vaccines, a vaccine in itself works by introducing a very small amount of the disease into the body to allow the bodies antibodies a chance to recognise and then fight the said illness..........I really don't feel homeopathic vaccines can do this.

I suggest that anyone querying the value of a vaccination should spend a few weeks nursing myxo rabbits or wiping owners tears. In my opinion, vaccines are priceless!

Just my opinion....
Regards, Jo

 

[Bob]

Good evening Jo! ;-)

 

[Nix]

I am a bit worried by the attitude that "natural" alternatives are safer... Plant extracts or whatever are not necessarily without side effects or dangers, it's just that they haven't been tested thoroughly so we don't know.

Look at St John's Wort - natural treatment for depression, been around for ages. Then a few years ago it was realised that it interferes with the effects of the contraceptive pill! So if it can affect the working of a medicine what else could it be doing to you?

I think that just because something is natural doesn't make it better or safer. If you use a natural alternative because you don't agree with animal testing then this is another matter.

The Catch-22 is that the only way to be sure that a vaccine is safe is for if it to have been tested. If you want your animals to survive then other animals will have had to die. This doesn't necessarily mean in lab tests where they are deliberately infected; even in trials like the pasteurella one above, if there was a "placebo group" then some of them may have died in the pursuit of the vaccine.

I am against most animal testing (I mean this in the vivisection sense). I don't think that living things should die because I want a new brand of soap. As Louise has said testing medicine for humans on animals is pointless because there are documented cases where the treatments work on the animal but are ineffectual or even harmful to humans. But when the treatment is for animals who do you suggest we test it on then? The key, I think, is to find humane methods of testing these things. Yes animals may die because they are infected by the disease but I think I could live with that thought so long as it was not done deliberately.

 

[bunnymyhoney57]

Mxyi vaccines

I have been through hell recently after one of my 15 buns getting Mxyi from somewhere and 3 more of them succumbing to the terrible disease after that. I am ashamed to say that I had not had any of them vaccinated.I have had most of them for 7 years and due to the cost not bothered before. I am interested in the thread regarding a 'bad batch' possibility as one of the buns who caught it was well before the jab and became ill a few hours after having the jab !!!!!!!! My vet says its not possible he could have gotten ill because of the jab but I am suspicious. Anyone any thoughts?
lynne