Need some advice about Xena's symptoms. U/D diagnosed with e.c

[MightyMax]

Just got home. My Mam came home early and let her out of the cage so I just went up to check her poos (in the cage) and to see how she is. She has done a fair amount of very nice, golden poos. :thumb: She also looks so much brighter than she did yesterday! She's been charging about bossing Fiver and Shadowfax around, jumped down from my bed with no problem and I haven't even seen her fall over once! I know it's early days but I can't tell you how happy I am to see my feisty little madam back.

I rang the vets today and unfortunately my vet hasn't been in yesterday or today. I asked if another vet could look at the results and she did but said she wanted to discuss things with Tom (my usual vet) before disclosing anything. I'm not sure what to make of this. Is it something really bad? Is it just that she needs a second opinion? :? Anyway, Tom is going to ring me tomorrow at half 1 whilst I'm at work for a chat and whatnot.

Fingers crossed it goes well and the news isn't too bad. At this stage I kind of want it to be e.c since that is something I know we can fight.

It's hard to be patient when they don't want to give you the results straight away. Could the second vet not be so confident with rabbits and with what's been going on? Perhaps not so able to interpret test results?

I'm so glad to her that not only is Xena feeling better, but that you seem to be brighter as a result! I really hope so anyway x

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

She has been very cuddly this evening. Following me about and begging for attention. Which is good, but she started doing that thing where she repeatedly sniffs\licks her back leg and I'm now sat here shaking and panicking that she's going to have another fit. She's gone and sat under the rat cage in the darkness and her ear has lopped again. :,( I'm hoping it's nothing and that I'm just imagining it. She's eating cecals now so maybe that's all she was trying to do? I hope so. :,(

 

[Omi]

Sending hugs to you. It's so stressful when they're not well

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

Thank you. I think she's ok. She just tried to hump Shadowfax and then chased her when she ran off. I think she was just tired. She sat under my bed, dozing for about half an hour until I stood up and she came running after me. I gave her a sneaky fenugreek crunchie and now she seems more like herself again.

I'm so worried about her. She's going to give me a heart attack!

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

Tom (my vet) rang today and he thinks it's most definitely e.c. Her liver enzymes are up (not significantly) but he thinks that may be due to the fact that she's losing weight. A few of her other bloods were off but they could be due to stress or her guts playing up.

So, really we can only go on as we are and hope she starts to improve. I have picked up some panacur for the other two, do they need the full 28 day course?

I'll be steam cleaning my room this weekend. I know it's probably not going to be as effective since you need to do the cleans on certain days in order to interrupt the life cycle but I'm not sure. I've been advised to put a hay rack up or just to keep hay off the floor. Anybody have any idea because I don't have anywhere to hang a hay rack, really. I thought about using a hay box but the last time I had one of them, they got the lid off, sat in it and peed in it. :roll: I've also got the problem that they quite simply don't like hay racks, they pull it out into the tray and eat it. :?

Today Xena seems off her hay. She scoffed some pellets but is definitely not really interested in her hay. I'm wondering if she's finding it difficult to eat? I am a bit worried as well because she didn't do many poos today in her cage. Is there anything she can have that will make her put weight on? I've heard rolled oats is good for this? Is that the same as plain porridge oats? oops Does she have them dry or soaked? How much does she need? I'm reluctant to try different hays since readigrass upsets her tum so much.

Is there anything more that I can do?

 

[keletkezes]

Is there somewhere/how you can hang a hayrack like this?

It's a big hanging basket: I dunno if you could rig up a tripod or similar? Mine hangs off the side of their metal pen or run nicely too, so it doesn't have to be free-hanging. Lopsy has tried to get into it though, so that could be a problem! He always tries it with the free-hanging ones but never quite makes it.

 

[MightyMax]

Tom (my vet) rang today and he thinks it's most definitely e.c. Her liver enzymes are up (not significantly) but he thinks that may be due to the fact that she's losing weight. A few of her other bloods were off but they could be due to stress or her guts playing up.

So, really we can only go on as we are and hope she starts to improve. I have picked up some panacur for the other two, do they need the full 28 day course?

I'll be steam cleaning my room this weekend. I know it's probably not going to be as effective since you need to do the cleans on certain days in order to interrupt the life cycle but I'm not sure. I've been advised to put a hay rack up or just to keep hay off the floor. Anybody have any idea because I don't have anywhere to hang a hay rack, really. I thought about using a hay box but the last time I had one of them, they got the lid off, sat in it and peed in it. :roll: I've also got the problem that they quite simply don't like hay racks, they pull it out into the tray and eat it. :?

Today Xena seems off her hay. She scoffed some pellets but is definitely not really interested in her hay. I'm wondering if she's finding it difficult to eat? I am a bit worried as well because she didn't do many poos today in her cage. Is there anything she can have that will make her put weight on? I've heard rolled oats is good for this? Is that the same as plain porridge oats? oops Does she have them dry or soaked? How much does she need? I'm reluctant to try different hays since readigrass upsets her tum so much.

Is there anything more that I can do?

Yes, your other rabbits definitely *do* need the full 28 day course.

I wouldn't worry about the cleaning on certain days. Just do what you can, and that will be enough.

I give oats in small amounts to put weight on thin bunnies, and also a few sunflower seeds, which contain significant amounts of Vitamin E as well

 

[Bunny Buddy]

This is the advice FHB gave me after Tinkerbell tested positive for EC in September:

"How long to give Panacur for, or even if it is worth giving, is a difficult subject with no clear answer. I would give any possible contacts a 9 day course and maybe repeat it in 6 months." Tinkerbell herself got 28 day course.

 

[esupi]

I gave Fudge oats when she was off her food recently and she LOVED them. I just soaked them in boiling water for 5 minutes first, as I'd read on here that if you give them dry they can swell in their stomach - not sure how dangerous that is, but it sounds feasible so I didn't risk it.

 

[MightyMax]

This is the advice FHB gave me after Tinkerbell tested positive for EC in September:

"How long to give Panacur for, or even if it is worth giving, is a difficult subject with no clear answer. I would give any possible contacts a 9 day course and maybe repeat it in 6 months." Tinkerbell herself got 28 day course.

I think there's no clear answer because I don't think Panacur is necessarily the best or only course of action. When one of mine needed Panacur, Christabel gave *all three* of my rabbits double doses for six weeks. Fun and games getting all that into them :lol:

 

[MightyMax]

I gave Fudge oats when she was off her food recently and she LOVED them. I just soaked them in boiling water for 5 minutes first, as I'd read on here that if you give them dry they can swell in their stomach - not sure how dangerous that is, but it sounds feasible so I didn't risk it.

I've given them for over 20 years and never found that to be the case

However, I expect there may always be a first time!

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

I'm sure she'd love the rolled oats. She seems to be struggling to pick up and eat hay. She does it fine if I hold it for her. I've tried chopping some up but she just sniffed it and then hopped off. Not sure what to do apart from hand feed her as much as possible...not very practical. Are sunflower hearts for birds ok? Or do they need to be ones fit for human consumption? I'm not sure there's even a difference tbh.

The free hanging basket is a good idea but where I'd hang it, I don't know. They free range in my bedroom and so the only place to hang it would be from the ceiling and I can definitely see me ending up hanging myself in the middle of the night or something. :lol:

As for the panacur....my vet said he didn't want to give double dose as panacur can have some side effects and that it isn't even proven to do anything against e.c so there wouldn't be much point in doing it. However, I have noticed that the panacur I got for Xena is different to the one I got over the counter for Fiver and Shadowfax. Xena's is only 10%, whereas Fiver and Shadowfax's is 18%. Does this make a difference? Also how on earth do I measure out for a bun under 2.5kgs? One graduation is for a bun weighing 2.5kg's but Fiver only weighs 2kg. I am thinking this is why I have a different one for Xena. Her's is loose, rather than in those dispensers, and she gets 0.35mls of it once a day. She weighs 1.8kgs atm.

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[Jack's-Jane]

I'm sure she'd love the rolled oats. She seems to be struggling to pick up and eat hay. She does it fine if I hold it for her. I've tried chopping some up but she just sniffed it and then hopped off. Not sure what to do apart from hand feed her as much as possible...not very practical. Are sunflower hearts for birds ok? Or do they need to be ones fit for human consumption? I'm not sure there's even a difference tbh.

The free hanging basket is a good idea but where I'd hang it, I don't know. They free range in my bedroom and so the only place to hang it would be from the ceiling and I can definitely see me ending up hanging myself in the middle of the night or something. :lol:

As for the panacur....my vet said he didn't want to give double dose as panacur can have some side effects and that it isn't even proven to do anything against e.c so there wouldn't be much point in doing it. However, I have noticed that the panacur I got for Xena is different to the one I got over the counter for Fiver and Shadowfax. Xena's is only 10%, whereas Fiver and Shadowfax's is 18%. Does this make a difference? Also how on earth do I measure out for a bun under 2.5kgs? One graduation is for a bun weighing 2.5kg's but Fiver only weighs 2kg. I am thinking this is why I have a different one for Xena. Her's is loose, rather than in those dispensers, and she gets 0.35mls of it once a day. She weighs 1.8kgs atm.

Sorry for all the questions!

Re the Panacur, the dose rate is 20mg/kg/day. So how much given will depend on the strength of the Panacur used. A smaller dose of the 18% concentration would be needed than if you use the 10% preparation.

I always use the 10% Panacur Liquid and I give the Rabbit 0.2ml/kg/day for 28 days. It is much easier to give a weight specific dose using the Panacur 10% liquid than it is using the Panacur Paste.

You could stuff hay into a kitchen paper towel cardboard inner tube. As long as the Buns dont eat all of the cardboard. Or you could prop up a large bird feeder filled with hay

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gardman-Hea..._UL160_SR110,160_&refRID=1KCX2P5VD2Q9ZRD2HE20

 

[MightyMax]

I'm sure she'd love the rolled oats. She seems to be struggling to pick up and eat hay. She does it fine if I hold it for her. I've tried chopping some up but she just sniffed it and then hopped off. Not sure what to do apart from hand feed her as much as possible...not very practical. Are sunflower hearts for birds ok? Or do they need to be ones fit for human consumption? I'm not sure there's even a difference tbh.

The free hanging basket is a good idea but where I'd hang it, I don't know. They free range in my bedroom and so the only place to hang it would be from the ceiling and I can definitely see me ending up hanging myself in the middle of the night or something. :lol:

As for the panacur....my vet said he didn't want to give double dose as panacur can have some side effects and that it isn't even proven to do anything against e.c so there wouldn't be much point in doing it. However, I have noticed that the panacur I got for Xena is different to the one I got over the counter for Fiver and Shadowfax. Xena's is only 10%, whereas Fiver and Shadowfax's is 18%. Does this make a difference? Also how on earth do I measure out for a bun under 2.5kgs? One graduation is for a bun weighing 2.5kg's but Fiver only weighs 2kg. I am thinking this is why I have a different one for Xena. Her's is loose, rather than in those dispensers, and she gets 0.35mls of it once a day. She weighs 1.8kgs atm.

Sorry for all the questions!

I always give the sunflower seeds, without the shells, to bunnies - also human grade, if as you say it makes a difference! And for the record mine tend to prefer Holland and Barrett and we've tried a fair few brands :lol:

You know I'm rather relieved your vet said that about the Panacur. As I mentioned, my vet recommended a double dose for ALL my rabbits, for six weeks, but it was not without it's side effects and I certainly would never do it again!

Can you syringe feed her a bit of baby food with some soaked and mashed pellets in there?

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

Re the Panacur, the dose rate is 20mg/kg/day. So how much given will depend on the strength of the Panacur used. A smaller dose of the 18% concentration would be needed than if you use the 10% preparation.

I always use the 10% Panacur Liquid and I give the Rabbit 0.2ml/kg/day for 28 days. It is much easier to give a weight specific dose using the Panacur 10% liquid than it is using the Panacur Paste.

You could stuff hay into a kitchen paper towel cardboard inner tube. As long as the Buns dont eat all of the cardboard. Or you could prop up a large bird feeder filled with hay

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gardman-Hea..._UL160_SR110,160_&refRID=1KCX2P5VD2Q9ZRD2HE20

Ok. So for Fiver do you think it would be easier to just squirt the tube into a spare phial and measure it out that way? I don't want to overdose him, especially with it being the 18% one! I started to worry there when I realised there was different percentages, but obviously if they are dosed correctly it doesn't matter. I debated whether to swap Xena onto the 18% one since she isn't responding to treatment, but it's impossible to work out the dose for a bun weighing only 1.8kgs, also don't want to risk upsetting her tum or anything.

I've put her in the cage atm. I am home but I thought this way I can monitor her poos and see whether she is eating hay. She was munching it this morning but after watching her yesterday, she is picking up strands and then dropping them and seemed to really struggle keeping them in her mouth. I'm going to give her some rolled oats and I've been giving her extra pellets.

Hmm, I'll have to see if the sunflower seeds are suitable for buns. I have a huge bag of them and it seems silly going and buying more just so that they are "fit for human consumption." I have a feeling there's not going t be a difference since birds are quite delicate little things and wouldn't be able to eat something that had pesticides on them or anything.

 

[cpayne]

Could you get xena some alfalfa hay, Doughnut loved it and I gave her a handful a day to get her weight up x

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

She is loving the porridge and sunflower hearts. She's at the vets tomorrow for a check up and I'll get her weighed to see if the food is helping, if not then I will try some alfalfa hay.
She seems to have turned a corner. I don't want to jinx anything, but she has suddenly regained her interest in hay and she seems a lot less wobbly. She did fall over yesterday (trying to periscope) and it took her a while to right herself, but apart from that she hasn't really fallen over much at all. She's even hopped onto my bed this morning and we had some lovely cuddles with lots of tooth purring. I'm really hoping that this means she's on her way to recovery but I daren't get my hopes up yet.

 

[MightyMax]

She is loving the porridge and sunflower hearts. She's at the vets tomorrow for a check up and I'll get her weighed to see if the food is helping, if not then I will try some alfalfa hay.
She seems to have turned a corner. I don't want to jinx anything, but she has suddenly regained her interest in hay and she seems a lot less wobbly. She did fall over yesterday (trying to periscope) and it took her a while to right herself, but apart from that she hasn't really fallen over much at all. She's even hopped onto my bed this morning and we had some lovely cuddles with lots of tooth purring. I'm really hoping that this means she's on her way to recovery but I daren't get my hopes up yet.

Ahh bless

Sending vibes that you are right and that she is on the road to a good recovery

 

[tulsi]

Awwww cuddles on the bed. How lovely. Lots of continued recovery vibes coming her way.

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

Thank you. Saw the vet today and she's put on a tiny bit of weight. This is excellent news because she has been losing weight and even though it's only a tiny bit she's put on, I'm hoping this is another sign that she's turned a corner. Her reflexes still aren't good (no reaction when her front paws are touched to the edge of the table) however Tom seemed quite happy with her progress. He looked at her eyes as well and they seem much better (they both had ulcers). We are continuing all the meds for a while yet. He wants her to have the panacur for longer than a month just to make sure and he's also suggested to worm her 3-4 times a year. He has said there's no evidence that panacur does anything (apparently the research was done with cells under the microscope and not actual rabbits so it's rather sketchy) but he said it won't hurt to do this. Better safe than sorry imo!

Do you think they'd all need worming routinely in this case? I don't mind since Shadowfax and Fiver seem to rather like the panacur. They take it completely voluntarily. :shock: :lol: