lesson in forage to help minor issues+ "unusal" behaviours

[thumps_]

Oh no :shock: I guess that they must have had a lot of emergencies in ? Will they keep him in overnight ?
You could do without this additional stress, I am sure x

I suppose so Jane. The news is that "he's very lively & tearing up his paper". So I have a very cross rabbit, with plenty of fighting spirit. He's eaten a little hay. - he's a good boy & will "go for fibre".
At least they can see he's far from a "moribund rabbit"! I feel I made the right decision.

At least they have an exotics ward, but it isn't GWR Jane. I did my best to keep the human relations going there, but after the annoyances with Miguel, who thought there was nothing wrong with him, Thumper was unhappy there. He didn't protest, but both ears down, & picture of misery when he went in, so I returned to my life long vets, who had since been taught about rabbits by an intern who worked there for a year = a bit more than a few lectures. Thumps was much happier. Same problem as Benjie. Looked the picture of health until he died.

News is, that he's just gone in & the nurse seemed to understand that I was used to post of care of a stasis prone rabbit. I'm hoping to have him back a bit earlier than most
I went OTT with his picnic. Everything he eats, enough for the ward.

I'm so stupid, thinking mainly of the limitations with thrombocytopaenia - can't have subQ fluids, or he'll bruise too badly/bleed. If snuffles flare up, we'll cross that brdge if we get to it.

On the positive side, he's seemed to get progressively more lively since the "caecal evacuation", but ate progressively less.

I really appreciate all the vibes.

 

[Jack's-Jane]

I suppose so Jane. The news is that "he's very lively & tearing up his paper". So I have a very cross rabbit, with plenty of fighting spirit. He's eaten a little hay. - he's a good boy & will "go for fibre".
At least they can see he's far from a "moribund rabbit"! I feel I made the right decision.

At least they have an exotics ward, but it isn't GWR Jane. I did my best to keep the human relations going there, but after the annoyances with Miguel, who thought there was nothing wrong with him, Thumper was unhappy there. He didn't protest, but both ears down, & picture of misery when he went in, so I returned to my life long vets, who had since been taught about rabbits by an intern who worked there for a year = a bit more than a few lectures. Thumps was much happier. Same problem as Benjie. Looked the picture of health until he died.

News is, that he's just gone in & the nurse seemed to understand that I was used to post of care of a stasis prone rabbit. I'm hoping to have him back a bit earlier than most
I went OTT with his picnic. Everything he eats, enough for the ward.

I'm so stupid, thinking mainly of the limitations with thrombocytopaenia - can't have subQ fluids, or he'll bruise too badly/bleed. If snuffles flare up, we'll cross that brdge if we get to it.

On the positive side, he's seemed to get progressively more lively since the "caecal evacuation", but ate progressively less.

I really appreciate all the vibes.

I really hope that all goes smoothly for Benjie, I'm still sending lots of vibes for him xx

 

[MightyMax]

I suppose so Jane. The news is that "he's very lively & tearing up his paper". So I have a very cross rabbit, with plenty of fighting spirit. He's eaten a little hay. - he's a good boy & will "go for fibre".
At least they can see he's far from a "moribund rabbit"! I feel I made the right decision.

At least they have an exotics ward, but it isn't GWR Jane. I did my best to keep the human relations going there, but after the annoyances with Miguel, who thought there was nothing wrong with him, Thumper was unhappy there. He didn't protest, but both ears down, & picture of misery when he went in, so I returned to my life long vets, who had since been taught about rabbits by an intern who worked there for a year = a bit more than a few lectures. Thumps was much happier. Same problem as Benjie. Looked the picture of health until he died.

News is, that he's just gone in & the nurse seemed to understand that I was used to post of care of a stasis prone rabbit. I'm hoping to have him back a bit earlier than most
I went OTT with his picnic. Everything he eats, enough for the ward.

I'm so stupid, thinking mainly of the limitations with thrombocytopaenia - can't have subQ fluids, or he'll bruise too badly/bleed. If snuffles flare up, we'll cross that brdge if we get to it.

On the positive side, he's seemed to get progressively more lively since the "caecal evacuation", but ate progressively less.

I really appreciate all the vibes.

Vibes for Benjie. I really hope there's good news soon and you can bring him home for your special brand of nursing (known as lots of love )

 

[tonibun]

Sending lots of vibes for Benjie xx

 

[thumps_]

Vibes for Benjie. I really hope there's good news soon and you can bring him home for your special brand of nursing (known as lots of love )

Thank you & that is such a kind comment. Having a single rabbit (I didn't have the testicular fortitude to risk the strain of bonding because of his snuffles) I do my best to be his partner bun too.

Good news he's woken up from the dental which went well, but all that was found were the small spikes. No tongue lesions. So we see whether his eating picks up.
If Maizey was right she'll get a full public apology from me.
But there are some big differences. Benjie has been eating his caecals since the caecal evacuation,& has improved in that he's more lively & occasionally lies out normally, his ears are always cool, (Thumper's were always warm ? self regulating a low grade temp?) Benjie has no problems thermoregulating in summer heat. Thumper never lost weight like this, even at the end. Benjie seems to get increased abdo pain soon after eating, & lies out after eating caecals.
Benjie has had access to exactly the same forage, but never got through almost a full carrier bag of dandelions daily! Thumper didn't have snuffles or thrombocytopaenia. As I said previously if my house is significantly contaminated with TB I would expect GI issues long before this.
If Benjie was a human, his GI symptoms would indicate a compromised blood supply to his gut - intestinal angina, but not his thrombocytopaenia. I think this is only a remote possibility in rabbits
It stretches my credulity that Benjie could have 3 totally unrelated serious illnesses simultaneously, but I can't tie them together.
The nearest hypothesis which is all assumptive, no evidence or knowledge, that I can get is that pasteurella was just ongoing. Benjie picks up a nasty pathogenic serotype E.coli infection (E.coli is everywhere) - dysbiosis - toxin production seeps through caecal wall (E coli attatch to the gut wall in rabbits) - produces thrombocytopaenia, produces bruising in inflammed caecum & probably elsewhere- caecum becomes more active when food is injested with the rest of the whole of the GI tract = pain.

I'll be interested to know how much he bleeds when the canula is removed from his ear. Platelets can bounce back quite quickly when the toxin is removed.
It's all my vain imaginings. I'm not used to not having a "working model" even if it changes a bit in the light of future evidence.

I was OK that the absolute diagnosis for Thumper wouldn't be established until pm. because the management was the same for any contingency. It was just that we didn't expect the final outcome.
Let's see how Benjie goes & hope!

 

[Omi]

I am very pleased that Benjie's dental has gone smoothly and that he's awake. As you will know different rabbits will react differently to different degrees of dental spurs/pain, so the fact that only small spikes were found might not indicate that this was not the cause of his reluctance to eat.

It will be interesting to see how much bleeding occurs when the canula is removed from his ear.

Sendng lots of vibes for him to recover well and hopefully start eating. Sending you lots of hugs - you've had a tough day.

 

[thumps_]

I am very pleased that Benjie's dental has gone smoothly and that he's awake. As you will know different rabbits will react differently to different degrees of dental spurs/pain, so the fact that only small spikes were found might not indicate that this was not the cause of his reluctance to eat.

It will be interesting to see how much bleeding occurs when the canula is removed from his ear.

Sendng lots of vibes for him to recover well and hopefully start eating. Sending you lots of hugs - you've had a tough day.

Thank you Omi - you are absolutely right. I also waste far too much time worrying - but it's more trying to make contingency plans, "what to do if", so my decision taking is more rational without pressure.
There's am I missing anything? obsessional attention to the smallest detail to tip the balance in our favour, however small. "Keeping comfortable" & trying to reduce rabbit anxiety, are fundamentally humanitarian, but also tip the balance favourably. Strangely all these tiny +ves can tip the balance from failure, to at worst a good ending, & at best coming through it.

It seems to me that the vets do their bit with surgery & meds, Benjie obviously has a strong fighting spirit, & there's my part, feeding, & making things easier for him.
There's also "whats the fundamental problem?" can I do anything to tip the balance there, because if I can, the rest will improve. When it's "your own" it seems so much harder!

 

[thumps_]

One not so little rabbit is back home & seems relieved to be so, - quite alert mentally, but not got his land legs yet. I even got the order of the bum in his carrier. :lol:
Has had an injection of gut prokinetics & metacam
I'm feeling more peaceful, that it was the right thing to do for him. So it's lots of TLC.
Good night everyone, with so msny thanks for all your supportive comments.

 

[thumps_]

He's been very slow to "get his land legs & is very weak. Moved to under the radiator, difficult to hold his head or up ear up for long.
Ear was vey red when returned to me (warm ward) very gradually turned pale, as is the sore spot on his nose & his mouth/gums. Certainly in praying position now,Hyperventilating. seems more drowsy, eyes close frequently.
Discussed with vet I'm to give cc but don't want to distress him if he's bleeding - wait for 1/2 hour & see how he is.

ETA 4.00am Benjie's breakfast time! He wasn't given CC as the nictitating membrane was coming across the eye, & he went into the least accessable place of the under the bed burrow system, nose to the wall. TBH I thought he had given up. Maybe he was just showing annoyance like after the blood test.
Good grief that's about the longest recovery from a GA I've heard of - over 12 hours!!!
Just heard a little munching sound -some hawthorn leaves, I annoyed him with a couple of sprigs of dill, lavender & 6-7 brambleleaves. He's actually quite bright in himself!
Tempting a rabbit to eat through a 2" gap between mattress & headboard is a new experience for me - a case of annoying him to bite by dropping food on, or near his nose.
He was actually a very thirsty rabbit who's just drunk 3/4 cereal bowl full of water!

 

[Jack's-Jane]

He's been very slow to "get his land legs & is very weak. Moved to under the radiator, difficult to hold his head or up ear up for long.
Ear was vey red when returned to me (warm ward) very gradually turned pale, as is the sore spot on his nose & his mouth/gums. Certainly in praying position now,Hyperventilating. seems more drowsy, eyes close frequently.
Discussed with vet I'm to give cc but don't want to distress him if he's bleeding - wait for 1/2 hour & see how he is.

ETA 4.00am Benjie's breakfast time! He wasn't given CC as the nictitating membrane was coming across the eye, & he went into the least accessable place of the under the bed burrow system, nose to the wall. TBH I thought he had given up. Maybe he was just showing annoyance like after the blood test.
Good grief that's about the longest recovery from a GA I've heard of - over 12 hours!!!
Just heard a little munching sound -some hawthorn leaves, I annoyed him with a couple of sprigs of dill, lavender & 6-7 brambleleaves. He's actually quite bright in himself!
Tempting a rabbit to eat through a 2" gap between mattress & headboard is a new experience for me - a case of annoying him to bite by dropping food on, or near his nose.
He was actually a very thirsty rabbit who's just drunk 3/4 cereal bowl full of water!

Hopefully he will be feeling less groggy by now and his input and output will also improve as the day progresses. I find that some post GA Rabbits have 'peaks and troughs' in their recovery. They have a period of being quite bright and then they zonk out again for a few hours. His GA was late yesterday and I would not be overly concerned that he appeared to be more groggy than you expected when you got him home. In my experience some Rabbits can take a good 24-36 hours to fully recover from a GA. Especially Rabbits who are older and/or health compromised in some way.

Mind you, I think I am telling you things you already know !!

 

[MightyMax]

He's been very slow to "get his land legs & is very weak. Moved to under the radiator, difficult to hold his head or up ear up for long.
Ear was vey red when returned to me (warm ward) very gradually turned pale, as is the sore spot on his nose & his mouth/gums. Certainly in praying position now,Hyperventilating. seems more drowsy, eyes close frequently.
Discussed with vet I'm to give cc but don't want to distress him if he's bleeding - wait for 1/2 hour & see how he is.

ETA 4.00am Benjie's breakfast time! He wasn't given CC as the nictitating membrane was coming across the eye, & he went into the least accessable place of the under the bed burrow system, nose to the wall. TBH I thought he had given up. Maybe he was just showing annoyance like after the blood test.
Good grief that's about the longest recovery from a GA I've heard of - over 12 hours!!!
Just heard a little munching sound -some hawthorn leaves, I annoyed him with a couple of sprigs of dill, lavender & 6-7 brambleleaves. He's actually quite bright in himself!
Tempting a rabbit to eat through a 2" gap between mattress & headboard is a new experience for me - a case of annoying him to bite by dropping food on, or near his nose.
He was actually a very thirsty rabbit who's just drunk 3/4 cereal bowl full of water!

I'm so very relieved to hear this update thumps Feeding a rabbit through a 2" gap sounds amazing (and a little uncomfortable for you perhaps?) but well worth it. I missed your update last night - I can never understand the Forum and why some posts seem to 'disappear' for a while and then reappear. I had Benjie on my mind whilst I was out last night and hoping he would come to after his GA.

I am very touched by all your very kind and sympathetic messages. I know you understand and I'm so grateful to you. You truly are a blessed friend There's a suggestion I want to make regarding Benjie and I shall PM you briefly if that's OK.

Ongoing vibes for a lot more nibbling to come xx

 

[tonibun]

Sending vibes for Benjie's full recovery! xx

 

[joey&boo]

Just popped on to see how Benjie is & so pleased to see after a worrying start he is at least bright & nibbling

 

[Omi]

Glad to see this update about Benjie. I hope he starts to munch more as the day goes on.

 

[Griffski]

Sending loads of vibes for Benjie..

 

[thumps_]

Thank you so much for your comment Jane.Thumper was different but Marie had yitrate his aneastheic to his personal needs. Everyone needs a first "go" to assess this!
Benjie is bright this morning, & eating but it's the orginal pattern before his dental. Very hungry, takes several big leaves then pauses mid chew. After that he'll only take a couple of bramble leaves at most. As he drinks well I made up some sloppy CCnear his water bowl Ears paler than usual but warm - "Magnolia pint" - no red on sore spot between his nostrils, tongue pale at the edges. He's purring when stroked & pokes his head out whenever I'm near, but he keeps his body under the bed ="you're not going to pick me up & take me to that awful place again"!

Sorry I didn't answer you Omi. Nurse saidhe bleda little more than expected. Came home with a bandage.I removed it as instructed. Although there seemed a lot of blood on the dressing it's actually a tiny amount which spreads more becauseit's slow to clot. It's also bright red like arterial blood presumably oxygenating in the air! I wouldn't consider these "hard signs of a coagulation problem in a rabbit., more something to "put on the shelf of your mind.

Managing to get what he had last night in a bout evety 2 hours.
He's not really in stasis -good bowel sounds but need stethoscope or ear pressed againsr flank to hear them - waste poohs smaller & much fewer than normal, but not the tiny hard post stasis poohs. First pooh a large soft caecal floiiowed immediately by about 10 wastes.

Nasty feeling that the dental didn't solve his GI problems as no spurs at the back.or sore tongue. I think very well worth giving him a chance though. Good lesson that caecal issues can closely mimick dental issues. Fooled me this time! He's almost identical to a rabbit called Amber. This is not how to manage staise This is early pallaitive care for a rabbit who is extremely distressed by small proceedures,& now even protest strongly at having his muzzle approached.

We carry on a bit longer, especially as he still loves to be stroked & even purrs!
My apologies for all the typos, I've lost both pairs of specs,& cant see the kyboard clearly let alone what I've written!!!

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Thank you so much for your comment Jane.Thumper was different but Marie had yitrate his aneastheic to his personal needs. Everyone needs a first "go" to assess this!
Benjie is bright this morning, & eating but it's the orginal pattern before his dental. Very hungry, takes several big leaves then pauses mid chew. After that he'll only take a couple of bramble leaves at most. As he drinks well I made up some sloppy CCnear his water bowl Ears paler than usual but warm - "Magnolia pint" - no red on sore spot between his nostrils, tongue pale at the edges. He's purring when stroked & pokes his head out whenever I'm near, but he keeps his body under the bed ="you're not going to pick me up & take me to that awful place again"!

Sorry I didn't answer you Omi. Nurse saidhe bleda little more than expected. Came home with a bandage.I removed it as instructed. Although there seemed a lot of blood on the dressing it's actually a tiny amount which spreads more becauseit's slow to clot. It's also bright red like arterial blood presumably oxygenating in the air! I wouldn't consider these "hard signs of a coagulation problem in a rabbit., more something to "put on the shelf of your mind.

Managing to get what he had last night in a bout evety 2 hours.
He's not really in stasis -good bowel sounds but need stethoscope or ear pressed againsr flank to hear them - waste poohs smaller & much fewer than normal, but not the tiny hard post stasis poohs. First pooh a large soft caecal floiiowed immediately by about 10 wastes.

Nasty feeling that the dental didn't solve his GI problems as no spurs at the back.or sore tongue. I think very well worth giving him a chance though. Good lesson that caecal issues can closely mimick dental issues. Fooled me this time! He's almost identical to a rabbit called Amber. This is not how to manage staise This is early pallaitive care for a rabbit who is extremely distressed by small proceedures,& now even protest strongly at having his muzzle approached.

We carry on a bit longer, especially as he still loves to be stroked & even purrs!
My apologies for all the typos, I've lost both pairs of specs,& cant see the kyboard clearly let alone what I've written!!!

Yes I agree as it is often easy to misinterpret the early signs of cecal impaction as being a Dental problem.

Why do Rabbits not come with an Instruction Manual :?

 

[MightyMax]

Thank you so much for your comment Jane.Thumper was different but Marie had yitrate his aneastheic to his personal needs. Everyone needs a first "go" to assess this!
Benjie is bright this morning, & eating but it's the orginal pattern before his dental. Very hungry, takes several big leaves then pauses mid chew. After that he'll only take a couple of bramble leaves at most. As he drinks well I made up some sloppy CCnear his water bowl Ears paler than usual but warm - "Magnolia pint" - no red on sore spot between his nostrils, tongue pale at the edges. He's purring when stroked & pokes his head out whenever I'm near, but he keeps his body under the bed ="you're not going to pick me up & take me to that awful place again"!

Sorry I didn't answer you Omi. Nurse saidhe bleda little more than expected. Came home with a bandage.I removed it as instructed. Although there seemed a lot of blood on the dressing it's actually a tiny amount which spreads more becauseit's slow to clot. It's also bright red like arterial blood presumably oxygenating in the air! I wouldn't consider these "hard signs of a coagulation problem in a rabbit., more something to "put on the shelf of your mind.

Managing to get what he had last night in a bout evety 2 hours.
He's not really in stasis -good bowel sounds but need stethoscope or ear pressed againsr flank to hear them - waste poohs smaller & much fewer than normal, but not the tiny hard post stasis poohs. First pooh a large soft caecal floiiowed immediately by about 10 wastes.

Nasty feeling that the dental didn't solve his GI problems as no spurs at the back.or sore tongue. I think very well worth giving him a chance though. Good lesson that caecal issues can closely mimick dental issues. Fooled me this time! He's almost identical to a rabbit called Amber. This is not how to manage staise This is early pallaitive care for a rabbit who is extremely distressed by small proceedures,& now even protest strongly at having his muzzle approached.

We carry on a bit longer, especially as he still loves to be stroked & even purrs!
My apologies for all the typos, I've lost both pairs of specs,& cant see the kyboard clearly let alone what I've written!!!

Yes, Cecal issues can be misinterpreted as a problem with teeth, but until you have a good look at the teeth you can't eliminate that possibility. So I guess it was a good thing to have done for Benjie I have thought not eating was a teeth issue on a couple of times recently. Thank God my vet can examine without GA and reassure me it's not teeth so we could look elsewhere for a reason.

I hope you find your glasses. I don't know what I would do without mine :shock:

 

[thumps_]

Not so good.I spent most of the time curled on the floor against the wall = a hidey hole for him (as he thinks) stroking him. He doesn't want me to leave him. So beautiful & unexpected - put his nose close to mine & gave me a whisker hug, also gave my nose a few licks. Can only manage 2 bramble leaves at a time now. He's tried hard, going to his food place, but only manages a few bites. Stopped trying to go downstairs! Now hunched much of the time - given metacam from my palm, got most of the dose in, but not much difference. Pooh's tiny, sticky, & so mishapen I wouldn't know they'd come from a rabbit (Not surprising after yesterday. I'll wait until tomorrow morning until any decisions. He doesn't usually eat afternoons

 

[Omi]

Poor Benjie I really hope he picks up overnight and eats a bit better tomorrow. The pattern of wanting to eat and then only managing a small amount is not something I've experienced.

Sending lots of hugs for you. You must be emotionally exhausted.