lesson in forage to help minor issues+ "unusal" behaviours

[Omi]

I'm so pleased that Benjie seems to be acting a bit more normally and that he is eating more for himself. It must be very difficult to determine all that is going on with him, but he does seem to be a bit better since the dental doesn't he.

I'm jealous that you are finding tree leaves. They are very few and far between here.

 

[MightyMax]

Yesterday afternoon & evening was not good. He started to sound a bit snuffly when awake,was nervous despite a lot of lavender, didn't pick up until 11.00pm but improved even more during the night & is still lively now, (naughty paws just had a carpet dig) & actually did a binky:shock: He's just had another reasonable eat. Plenty of well seperated waste poohs in the last 24 hours. He's pitifully thin, but started to eat pellets again & no uneaten caecals.

Food above everything else is lavender - he demolishes it when he won't eat anything else. (I've not seen anything like it. He looks as if he's in stasis - no interest in food, but when offered lavender there's no stopping him!) I wonder whether he'll make scented poohs eventually?:lol:
After that he has a mix of brambles, mixed tree leaves, greater plantain, a bit of blackthorn & now pellets. Lemon grass goes in less frequently, & usually with lavender.
Mainly self feeding at last with a bit of a top up from me.
Can't expect him to eat much until this evening. Still needs to eat a bit more to maintain weight.

Amazed that the snuffles hasn't taken off. Obviously I don't know what's happening to his platelets.

Hi thumps

Scented poos? Now there's a thought :lol: A rabbit lavender bag ... hmmmm ....

Glad to hear he's eating on his own. Do you think the dental has made a significant improvement overall?

 

[thumps_]

Thank you Griffski.

I now have Benjie back to normal GI function & behaving much more normally. However he's still cradling indicating that he still has some abdominal pain. He's also eating less lavender. As he has improved, the skin on his ears & nose has improved in colour.
I've no idea what's been wrong, no idea why lavender & lemongrass helped, & it was all chance that I offered them. I certainly don't recommend them as a routine for a dysbiotic bunny, maybe only as a last resort for a very nervous ill & "toxic" dysbiotic bunny. I now think that the changed skin colour was most likely pain, but in retrospect could have been a response to surmised bacterial toxins.

2-3 sprigs of lavender have been widely used to calm nervous, stasis prone bunnies for travel without ill effect.
I would now say not to give lavender to a bun who hasn't recovered fully from a GA. What else could I do? I had a legless bunny who was going ballistic at home, & kept rolling with a high risk of internal bleeding at the slightest injury.
In addition to it's calming properties, lavender has antimicrobial properties. (The oil which I don't use for rabbits because I have no training in using potent extracts) is proven to be superior to saline & povidone iodine in preventing infections & promoting wound healing when applied directly. I also prefer feeding sprigs because of the high fibre. The oil is extracted by steam & highly concentrated and will not contain the water soluble components. I just feed rabbits what they choose to eat. i am not doing herbal medicine, rather learning from rabbits.

A superficial look at the properties of lemongrass indicates antimicrobial properties, pain relief, easing GI gas & detoxification. I have yet to research side effects.
Blackthorn & brambles (tannins) also have antimicrobial effects as do both the plantains to a lesser extent. I gained a strong impression that unlike fresh blackthorn, dried blackthorn doesn't enter the caecum to any extent. A possible reason could be that the activity is in the juices.

In terms of GI dysfunction. High anxiety can slow down the GI tract per se. I know of a few stasis prone bunnies where loss of a sense used to detect predators - hearing /smell, was a big factor in causing stasis. They may not appear unduely frightened but seem to be slightly aggressive.
I would also say that most buns aren't as OTT about predator awareness as Benjie.
I've noticed a behaviour in both Thumper & Benjie. When 1st going out into the garden, they would run in zig zags, jump, & twist, as if thrilled to be outside. IMO they are practising predator escape, just to be sure they are fit enough in the eventuality they need it.
As a young rabbit Thumper did a lot of predator escape practice. It evolved to become ever more ornate, with twists & 180 degree turns & double bucks mid air. He seemed to like an audience (me) Why predator escape? He'd always give a warning thump near the beginning of his display. To me, it begged the unanswered question of whether rabbits have an imagination?

Trying to find some answers re Benjie I wondered what was the 1st. thing I noticed wrong? It goes back to end Sept when he started to become ridiculously nervous, even starting to the sound of me putting on a nylon anorak! I knew it was a fear of being stalked by a predator (buns in general dislike rustling sounds) Occasional uneaten caecals & changed posture came about a month later. Again I dismissed it as the stress of a sudden cold snap plus the stress of a large moult & having to increase his energy intake to grow a new undercoat fully.

Perhaps it's an example of "unusual behaviour" or changed behaviour (neurotic potential predator awareness) indicating underlying illness. There's been plenty of "unusual behaviour" from the human partner bun!

Neither do I know whether his platelets will recover or deteriorate. But I have a happy Benjie who is eating well. pooping well & licking which ever part of me he can reach. Maybe we've cracked it, maybe not. Who knows what the future holds? For certain I'm not going to ask for a check platlets test just to satisfy my curiosity. It won't affect management & is definitely not in his interests

My apologies to those of you who have stood beside me, for missing your threads. I can only plead that it's time consuming & quite hard work both nursing & being partner bun to a sick bun. The constant allogrooming / partnership bond is an important anti stress measure, & often the only way I could persuade him to take a little food.
I am deeply grateful to all of you for your support. I find it scary when my rabbit tells me "none of the food you are offering me helps me" & have no idea what to try. I've seen this in Thumper also. It's different from the inappetance of stasis, because as soon as the correct food is offered, they'll eat it willingly.

I think I left one of Omi's questions unanswered - the praying position to relieve pressure on a painful abdomen. I can only say that the lower abdomen is lifted high & weight taken on the chest & towards the front of the hind feet. This would relieve pressure on the hocks. However IMO it requires strength & muscular effort from the hindquarter muscles, plus rabbits have very little respiratory reserve, which may be why it's not commonly seen in rabbits.

 

[thumps_]

Omi - The tree leaves were gathered in early summer & dried. Nothing much of anything round here. IMO it's a mix of fertilizer drift (large fields of grain) which makes verge grass grow long with loss of thin leaved fescue plus verge mowing leaving grass on top, which has killed off our low growing chalk downland plants. A change from sheep farming to race & thoroughbred horse "farming" has had impact because they herbicide paddocks & nearby verges lest the horses eat poisonous plants. With plant loss we've lost insects - the hedges are silent in summer. With insect loss & harvesting methods in the fields owned by big consortia, we've lost birds. The valley where Vaughn Williams composed "the lark ascending" is now silent. Even butterflies can't cross the huge aggregated fields with lack of wild plants for nectar. My beautiful vibrant chalk downland, the result of 4,000 years of agriculture, has become a bowling green desert, in less than 15 years. The main surviving plants are stinging nettles, dock, ragweed & hogweed.

Many wild rabbits have moved to the hill tops. I smile that many have reoccupied the ancient pillow mounds = artificial warrens used to "farm wild rabbits" in the middle ages, so say, because they couldn't dig burrows in those times. Although locally they've moved into a Victorian rubbish dump & many, whose habitat was destroyed by a large housing estate moved across the motorway (possibly through dry drainage ditches) to a landfill site on the other side- a fascinating warren structure!
Sorry to be a misery. I really love my countryside & all that lives in it.

However I'm very fortunate to have a variety of bramble which grows well in a copse & remains in leaf throughout the year close by.
The smaller farmers do their best by leaving a 3meter strip at the edge of their fields for wild life, & use a wide variety of hedging shrubs. One leaves an additional 3 meter strip at the edge for the few birds left.

MM I'm working on scented rabbit poohs but Benjie hasn't quite got the hang of it yet!:lol:
ETA In honesty I don't think the dental has helped much. I think that his improvement corrolates more with giving him more lavender in terms of greater frequency & reducing his anxiety levels.

 

[thumps_]

I thought we'd finished. but Benjie has excelled himself in eating to improve his condition.
I spoke of how he was ridiculously anxious & devoured the lavender stems and all. My bush is pruned to bare twigs, a friend's 8 bushes pruned back hard, & various neighbours had all their straggly bits pruned by me. He soon became much calmer & started to eat a bit more but not enough. Just as the lavender situation was getting a bit desperate, he stopped eating it & started to devour lemon grass. I offered dill at the same time because I was worried that he still showed signs of abdo pain - cradling. His max intake of lemon grass was 6 sticks a day :shock: but at long last he was lying out normally for short periods. I smiled that every time he passed the now bare pot of lemon grass I was growing he chin scented it = that's MINE.
Next move - he rapidly increased his dill intake as he reduced the lemon grass.
Last night it was 4 sachets of dill - all eaten & 3 sticks of lemon grass. Result - he's lying out normally this morning & Waitrose is completely out of dill & lemon grass!
I couldn't understand why he had abdo pain - diet (dust control for snuffles - was also the best for GI problems) nothing in the bloods to indicate an absorption problem. I can't believe there's a significant caecal motility problem or impaction. by the sheer amount of caecal material which came out when he had cisipride.

Listen to your rabbit. Dill leaves are a weak defoamant = help to disperse gas. The best part are the seeds = gripe water. I decided to "go" for infacol because it definitely doesn't have side effects.
Off to the chemist 1st thing. I've learned from Thumper - draw up the syringe outside - (cant hear me open the bottle or smell it). Wash hands to get the smell off, saunter up to rabbit thinking anything BUT catching him & meds.
There he was under the bed -still fully stretched out & comfortable. leaving me with an as yet un needed syringe full of infacol downstairs. :lol:

His snuffles has been a bit worse over the last 2 days. Fingers crossed that if we've solved the abdo pain., his immune system will kick in again, & the snuffles will come under control.

I forgot to say that he's been eating much more basil for the last 4-5 days & literally begging me for his special basil parcel containing his bisolvon. (Both make secretions in the respiratory tract more runny & easier to clear.)

I've no idea what's happening to his platelets. We can't do anything about that. I'm not going to stress him silly with a blood test just to satisfy my curiosity. Time will tell.

We didn't touch on the incredibly inventive strategies some rabbits have to evade medication. Thumper knew all the tricks I used as a child to avoid "vitamin pills" & more. Benjie is amazingly inventive at giving me the "runaround" & has a few tricks of his own. Both rabbits have really stretched my ingenuity to outwit them, & they soon learn my countermoves. Absolutely amazing creatures.

 

[Omi]

I am so pleased to read that Benjie has improved. I had been wondering how he was and also how much lavender you had left in your garden How wonderful that your neighbours were also willing to gift some to Benjie.

 

[joey&boo]

I thought we'd finished. but Benjie has excelled himself in eating to improve his condition.
I spoke of how he was ridiculously anxious & devoured the lavender stems and all. My bush is pruned to bare twigs, a friend's 8 bushes pruned back hard, & various neighbours had all their straggly bits pruned by me. He soon became much calmer & started to eat a bit more but not enough. Just as the lavender situation was getting a bit desperate, he stopped eating it & started to devour lemon grass. I offered dill at the same time because I was worried that he still showed signs of abdo pain - cradling. His max intake of lemon grass was 6 sticks a day :shock: but at long last he was lying out normally for short periods. I smiled that every time he passed the now bare pot of lemon grass I was growing he chin scented it = that's MINE.
Next move - he rapidly increased his dill intake as he reduced the lemon grass.
Last night it was 4 sachets of dill - all eaten & 3 sticks of lemon grass. Result - he's lying out normally this morning & Waitrose is completely out of dill & lemon grass!
I couldn't understand why he had abdo pain - diet (dust control for snuffles - was also the best for GI problems) nothing in the bloods to indicate an absorption problem. I can't believe there's a significant caecal motility problem or impaction. by the sheer amount of caecal material which came out when he had cisipride.

Listen to your rabbit. Dill leaves are a weak defoamant = help to disperse gas. The best part are the seeds = gripe water. I decided to "go" for infacol because it definitely doesn't have side effects.
Off to the chemist 1st thing. I've learned from Thumper - draw up the syringe outside - (cant hear me open the bottle or smell it). Wash hands to get the smell off, saunter up to rabbit thinking anything BUT catching him & meds.
There he was under the bed -still fully stretched out & comfortable. leaving me with an as yet un needed syringe full of infacol downstairs. :lol:

His snuffles has been a bit worse over the last 2 days. Fingers crossed that if we've solved the abdo pain., his immune system will kick in again, & the snuffles will come under control.

I forgot to say that he's been eating much more basil for the last 4-5 days & literally begging me for his special basil parcel containing his bisolvon. (Both make secretions in the respiratory tract more runny & easier to clear.)

I've no idea what's happening to his platelets. We can't do anything about that. I'm not going to stress him silly with a blood test just to satisfy my curiosity. Time will tell.

We didn't touch on the incredibly inventive strategies some rabbits have to evade medication. Thumper knew all the tricks I used as a child to avoid "vitamin pills" & more. Benjie is amazingly inventive at giving me the "runaround" & has a few tricks of his own. Both rabbits have really stretched my ingenuity to outwit them, & they soon learn my countermoves. Absolutely amazing creatures.[/QUOTE]

You're not wrong.

Great to hear Benjie is going from strength to strength. I would be making the same decision about further bloods.

I do the same when I approach mine, whether they read minds or body language they are very clever at it. I had a lovely black bunny once (Ralph) who was on a good cocktail of meds & would take everything from a saucer or pills from your hand. I was quite shocked when my next bunny got stick to realise they don't usually medicate quite so easily :lol:I'm going to be growing dill & mint for my Joey this summer. I'm pleased my reserves of dried forage look like they'll see us through the next couple of months

 

[MightyMax]

I thought we'd finished. but Benjie has excelled himself in eating to improve his condition.
I spoke of how he was ridiculously anxious & devoured the lavender stems and all. My bush is pruned to bare twigs, a friend's 8 bushes pruned back hard, & various neighbours had all their straggly bits pruned by me. He soon became much calmer & started to eat a bit more but not enough. Just as the lavender situation was getting a bit desperate, he stopped eating it & started to devour lemon grass. I offered dill at the same time because I was worried that he still showed signs of abdo pain - cradling. His max intake of lemon grass was 6 sticks a day :shock: but at long last he was lying out normally for short periods. I smiled that every time he passed the now bare pot of lemon grass I was growing he chin scented it = that's MINE.
Next move - he rapidly increased his dill intake as he reduced the lemon grass.
Last night it was 4 sachets of dill - all eaten & 3 sticks of lemon grass. Result - he's lying out normally this morning & Waitrose is completely out of dill & lemon grass!
I couldn't understand why he had abdo pain - diet (dust control for snuffles - was also the best for GI problems) nothing in the bloods to indicate an absorption problem. I can't believe there's a significant caecal motility problem or impaction. by the sheer amount of caecal material which came out when he had cisipride.

Listen to your rabbit. Dill leaves are a weak defoamant = help to disperse gas. The best part are the seeds = gripe water. I decided to "go" for infacol because it definitely doesn't have side effects.
Off to the chemist 1st thing. I've learned from Thumper - draw up the syringe outside - (cant hear me open the bottle or smell it). Wash hands to get the smell off, saunter up to rabbit thinking anything BUT catching him & meds.
There he was under the bed -still fully stretched out & comfortable. leaving me with an as yet un needed syringe full of infacol downstairs. :lol:

His snuffles has been a bit worse over the last 2 days. Fingers crossed that if we've solved the abdo pain., his immune system will kick in again, & the snuffles will come under control.

I forgot to say that he's been eating much more basil for the last 4-5 days & literally begging me for his special basil parcel containing his bisolvon. (Both make secretions in the respiratory tract more runny & easier to clear.)

I've no idea what's happening to his platelets. We can't do anything about that. I'm not going to stress him silly with a blood test just to satisfy my curiosity. Time will tell.

We didn't touch on the incredibly inventive strategies some rabbits have to evade medication. Thumper knew all the tricks I used as a child to avoid "vitamin pills" & more. Benjie is amazingly inventive at giving me the "runaround" & has a few tricks of his own. Both rabbits have really stretched my ingenuity to outwit them, & they soon learn my countermoves. Absolutely amazing creatures.

How lovely to read your informative and entertaining update thumps

I was a bit concerned about you running out of lavender, so I was mightily chuffed to read your helpful neighbours stepped in!

Buying dill (or anything?) in Waitress sounds expensive. We have those cosmopolitan shops here that sell herbs by the big bundle for 50p, which is a godsend.

And rabbits evading medication - clearing one's mind before you enter a room with either a pet carrier or a syringe is far easier said than done :lol: I bet they read our thoughts and intentions ... the way we get a sixth sense - I think theirs is switched on all the time!

 

[mini lop1]

the scented poo's just made me laugh, as over Christmas with treats here my bun did scented mint poos, or rosemary lol

 

[thumps_]

Thank you every one for your encouragement & kind posts.

Omi the people round here are lovely. Many have rescue dogs which are recovering from abuse, so we have a love of animals in common & it includes wild life /countryside in general. I'm eternally surprised that local people are genuinely interested in my ill rabbit. The allotment holders were wonderful in letting me gather "weeds" from their plots for Thumper, & always asked how he was. It's the same with the farm workers on the downs.

JoeyandBoo I'm open mouthed that Ralph took his meds like that. However Thumper & now Benjie were able to learn that the meds helped them, & the "resistance" stopped. Benjie actually much prefers the basil/bisolvon parcel to basil alone. Benjie did need some infacol later & has just had a second dose. I think he'll learn this one quickly because relief is so fast.
Thumper actually knew what the domperidone did to his GI tract. Good as gold about taking it until after just over 2 years I had to try to reduce the dose using blackthorn. One morning Thumper did an outright refusal. Later that day the reason was obvious, everything was coming through too fast = I had to drop the dose of domperidone more than I expected.

MM We have become a dormitary town for London & Bristol. Prices in all the supermarkets are pretty uniform, except for Aldi where I do my own shopping, but it doesn't stock dill or lemon grass.
I could get far cheaper prices & more variety of shops if I caught the bus to Devizes, but it takes the best part of a day. Oh for a decent market! a fishmonger, a haberdashery shop, or a shop which sold material!
Clearing my mind - a long story of a 6 week struggle for dominance in the house when Thumper's testosterone kicked in - "Let's you & me fight" & he won if he succeeded in annoying me - and I can control my "body language" pretty well. I found I couldn't feel annoyed if I tunelessly "sung" silly songs I invented. That, combined with a toy rabbit to do his dominance humping on, sussed it. Thumper became a master of the "double bind" = heads I win, tails you lose.
Fortunately it seems that once we've sorted that out, both buns much prefer harmonious relations so there's give & take on both sides.

Mini lop 1 Lovely to see you again.:wave: Wow your bun managed scented poohs!!
You've got a potential business going there! The Greeks in particular go in for "prayer counters" (not rosaries) the beads are strung together in 12's, & worn like a bracelet or 33's.
The beads are invariably dark brown & exactly the same size as healthy ......!!!

 

[mini lop1]

Thank you every one for your encouragement & kind posts.

Omi the people round here are lovely. Many have rescue dogs which are recovering from abuse, so we have a love of animals in common & it includes wild life /countryside in general. I'm eternally surprised that local people are genuinely interested in my ill rabbit. The allotment holders were wonderful in letting me gather "weeds" from their plots for Thumper, & always asked how he was. It's the same with the farm workers on the downs.

JoeyandBoo I'm open mouthed that Ralph took his meds like that. However Thumper & now Benjie were able to learn that the meds helped them, & the "resistance" stopped. Benjie actually much prefers the basil/bisolvon parcel to basil alone. Benjie did need some infacol later & has just had a second dose. I think he'll learn this one quickly because relief is so fast.
Thumper actually knew what the domperidone did to his GI tract. Good as gold about taking it until after just over 2 years I had to try to reduce the dose using blackthorn. One morning Thumper did an outright refusal. Later that day the reason was obvious, everything was coming through too fast = I had to drop the dose of domperidone more than I expected.

MM We have become a dormitary town for London & Bristol. Prices in all the supermarkets are pretty uniform, except for Aldi where I do my own shopping, but it doesn't stock dill or lemon grass.
I could get far cheaper prices & more variety of shops if I caught the bus to Devizes, but it takes the best part of a day. Oh for a decent market! a fishmonger, a haberdashery shop, or a shop which sold material!
Clearing my mind - a long story of a 6 week struggle for dominance in the house when Thumper's testosterone kicked in - "Let's you & me fight" & he won if he succeeded in annoying me - and I can control my "body language" pretty well. I found I couldn't feel annoyed if I tunelessly "sung" silly songs I invented. That, combined with a toy rabbit to do his dominance humping on, sussed it. Thumper became a master of the "double bind" = heads I win, tails you lose.
Fortunately it seems that once we've sorted that out, both buns much prefer harmonious relations so there's give & take on both sides.

Mini lop 1 Lovely to see you again.:wave: Wow your bun managed scented poohs!!
You've got a potential business going there! The Greeks in particular go in for "prayer counters" (not rosaries) the beads are strung together in 12's, & worn like a bracelet or 33's.
The beads are invariably dark brown & exactly the same size as healthy ......!!!

Yes and he does them in one pile to lol, he loves his herbs and greens now, before I got him he only mainly had pellets with greens once week had never tasted a herb