Ethics of keeping rabbits

[William]

What was that about being holier than thou? :lol:

Licenses are to put off idiots who think owning an exotic animal is a good idea! and if people release their animals they're prats and didnt deserve them in the first place. If you truly loved animals, and wanted to do what was best for them then you would agree with something like this. Saying its an inconvenience makes you sound like one of those owners that just wants exotics for the thrills


No we shouldnt have domestcated animals, but we have and we have a duty to care for them in the best possible way. In an ideal world we'd all have free range rabbits who dont have human interaction except for medical treatments, in reality thats almost never possible.

I'm not saying eating animals is wrong but anyone who eats meat and says they don't agree with the domestication of animals is a hypocrite.

I don't think licenses are necessary. People are much more likely to get a dog and neglect it than get an exotic animal and neglect it. It's not easy to find a lot of exotics, they're expensive and most breeders are good and wouldn't sell to just anyone and they also give you detailed info packs when you buy an animal from them. So I think all that weeds out the idiots and requires that people research first.

No, I don't want exotics just for the thrill. When I get a pet it's for life and it's very well thought out and researched. Irresponsible owners shouldn't affect me or any other responsible owner. That's why I don't like the idea of licenses, they just restrict and inconvenience the responsible owners when it's not their fault.

And not all licenses are the same anyway. It's naive to act like they shouldn't be an inconvenience to a responsible owner. A Class III permit in Florida is free, simple to get, hardly any wait time and they usually don't inspect for Class III. So it's pretty much just to keep tabs on exotic keepers. Class II is much more difficult. You have to have references, I don't think it's a free permit, you're inspected I think twice a year at least (plus when you get a new species) and some inspectors are awful so that's a lot of worry and trouble. And you have to follow housing rules, but those aren't too bad. The minimum enclosure size is very reasonable, I would definitely have bigger enclosures.

Then there's permits like ornamental waterfowl permits. They require all this paperwork throughout the whole year, basically records on every single bird you have (birds that require the permit) whether you sold any babies, whether any died, etc and you have to turn it in before Jan 1st every year and renew your permit every year. And native North American raptor permits require you to work with native raptors for 2 years before you can get one. I'd like to work at a wildlife center with raptors anyway but still, it's an unnecessary inconvenience, and two years is a crazy long time. Over in the UK you don't need a permit for raptors and you can buy a barn owl for 50 pounds, sometimes you can even get them for free, they're like a dime a dozen. Over here they're extremely expensive and hard to find, I suppose because of the permit not many people breed them. If lax regulations work over there how come they can't over here?

 

[BattleKat]

I don't like anti-exotic/anti-animal people. I could probably care less if it weren't for the fact that they're always trying to ban animals, which I have a passion for. They need to just leave well enough alone.

I don't think you always pay enough attention to what people say. You mainly got defensive in response to my posts, when at no point did I call for any animals to be banned, just that there should be appropriate measures taken to make sure the animals are being looked after properly and having their basic needs met. That's all that licensing and regulations are, you know.

 

[BattleKat]

I'm not saying eating animals is wrong but anyone who eats meat and says they don't agree with the domestication of animals is a hypocrite.

Why? We were eating meat long before any animals were domesticated.

 

[Aly&Poppy<3]

Well this has gone off the first post a tad hasn't it :lol:

 

[Saj]

this debate is getting really juicy! I dont think it's healthy though to put all forum users into one category, we all have individual opinions/lifestyles.

it's a shame this debate is about 60 years too late (my guess at when we started domesticating rabbits, but i havent looked it up so could be wrong!)

 

[William]

I don't think you always pay enough attention to what people say. You mainly got defensive in response to my posts, when at no point did I call for any animals to be banned, just that there should be appropriate measures taken to make sure the animals are being looked after properly and having their basic needs met. That's all that licensing and regulations are, you know.

I don't agree with regulations at all. But anyways, it doesn't end with realistic regulations, they just end up restricting more. I know a lot of states used to have okay regulations and now most exotics are banned. In Florida private individuals used to be allowed to own Class I animals but now you can't, you have to be a zoo. Cougars and cheetahs have been added to Class I (before 2009 they were Class II). What was even the point in that, cheetahs are near impossible to get and cougars are more docile and less moody than many other cat species. And there's several python species that require permits now. So that's why I 'got defensive' even though you didn't call for any animals to be banned. Regulations eventually lead to bans.

 

[Georgeypudding]

I'm not saying eating animals is wrong but anyone who eats meat and says they don't agree with the domestication of animals is a hypocrite.

I don't think licenses are necessary. People are much more likely to get a dog and neglect it than get an exotic animal and neglect it. It's not easy to find a lot of exotics, they're expensive and most breeders are good and wouldn't sell to just anyone and they also give you detailed info packs when you buy an animal from them. So I think all that weeds out the idiots and requires that people research first.

No, I don't want exotics just for the thrill. When I get a pet it's for life and it's very well thought out and researched. Irresponsible owners shouldn't affect me or any other responsible owner. That's why I don't like the idea of licenses, they just restrict and inconvenience the responsible owners when it's not their fault.

And not all licenses are the same anyway. It's naive to act like they shouldn't be an inconvenience to a responsible owner. A Class III permit in Florida is free, simple to get, hardly any wait time and they usually don't inspect for Class III. So it's pretty much just to keep tabs on exotic keepers. Class II is much more difficult. You have to have references, I don't think it's a free permit, you're inspected I think twice a year at least (plus when you get a new species) and some inspectors are awful so that's a lot of worry and trouble. And you have to follow housing rules, but those aren't too bad. The minimum enclosure size is very reasonable, I would definitely have bigger enclosures.

Then there's permits like ornamental waterfowl permits. They require all this paperwork throughout the whole year, basically records on every single bird you have (birds that require the permit) whether you sold any babies, whether any died, etc and you have to turn it in before Jan 1st every year and renew your permit every year. And native North American raptor permits require you to work with native raptors for 2 years before you can get one. I'd like to work at a wildlife center with raptors anyway but still, it's an unnecessary inconvenience, and two years is a crazy long time. Over in the UK you don't need a permit for raptors and you can buy a barn owl for 50 pounds, sometimes you can even get them for free, they're like a dime a dozen. Over here they're extremely expensive and hard to find, I suppose because of the permit not many people breed them. If lax regulations work over there how come they can't over here?

People are more likely to neglect an exotic animal, because they have no idea how to care for it rather than abuse etc. Lots of people think "Oh I'll get a snake, or a bird or exotic animal because its soooo cool" and then realise that actually they're expensive and hard to care for. Lots of pet shops here sell exotics so they are very easy to come by.

Surely you want to get rid of irresponsible owners so the more things to put them off the better? Even if it is an inconvenience to you.
I honestly cannot see anything wrong with what you have just said (except nasty inspectors) it all makes sense to me! Why let people get away with cruelty when we could keep tabs on them and catch problems early? Having experience with raptors sounds like a brilliant idea! Certainly put people off buying birds on a will!

I think you have a very rose tinted idea of the UK, the lax regulations dont always work and Im sure the responsible raptor owners (and other pets) would agree that getting rid of idiots would be a good idea, even if it means bringing in strict rules like the ones in the US. We have alot of issues with neglect, and the RSPCA arent always the best at sorting it out, the idea of biyearly house checks sounds fantastic and I reckon it'd reduce cruelty a heck of a lot

 

[thumps_]

this debate is getting really juicy! I dont think it's healthy though to put all forum users into one category, we all have individual opinions/lifestyles.

it's a shame this debate is about 60 years too late (my guess at when we started domesticating rabbits, but i havent looked it up so could be wrong!)

I agree with your 1st statement completely Saj.

To return to our favourite topic - rabbits. They originated in wild state in Spain (& Portugal) hence the Roman name for Spain - Hispania =land of rabbits. It is thought that the Romans took them to various parts of Europe as a food & fur source. There is dispute whether they were introduced to the UK by the Romans or Normans.
Originally they were tender & unable to survive a winter. Artificial warrens were built for them in the middle ages -Pillow mounds. I would love to know when they started to dig burrows, which enabled them to escape.

A pet rabbit is certainly recorded in the 18century. I don't know whether there are earlier records.
There were many different breeds by the turn of the 19th Century, but they were very expensive.
Even 60 years ago, the domestic pets of ordinary folk like us, were bought from the fur & meat farms. A chinchilla bunny was very common.

The only indigenous species of lagomorph in the UK is the hare.
Of course the history of rabbit introduction to Australia (Lobo's country) from the UK is very recent historically.

 

[halfpenny]

You do need a license to own a raptor in Britain,
In referrance to the comments about exotic owners taking more care of their pets than 'normal' pets, i disagree.
My friend works in reptile rescue and see some horrendous cases caused by ignorance and neglect.
People see an animal , buy it because it's cute, different, unusual or just because they can- they do not research it or even have the facilities for it before they get it in many cases.
I myself have parrots who were fed a seed only diet, chinchillas who were fed peanuts as a treat and kept in tiny cages and a APH who was in a small cage, too cold and on shavings.

Personally, I think we have enough domesticated animals and have no need to domesticate any more, the lucky ones go to owners like the ones on here but how many end up dying or suffering through ignorance, boredom and neglect. No matter the animal, ones will be abused. Even the basics like finding a competent vet is nigh impossible for exotic keepers, so what about the welfare issues there, and before any body says vets should just find out about them- how and why, even the top specialists are learning and is it worthwhile for a vet to find out about exotics when they may only see one or two a year!
I do not agree the we should not have pets, I can't imagine my life without them but there needs to be a crack down on breeding and education on how to look after them.

 

[Jack's-Jane]

No, I don't want exotics just for the thrill. When I get a pet it's for life and it's very well thought out and researched. Irresponsible owners shouldn't affect me or any other responsible owner. That's why I don't like the idea of licenses, they just restrict and inconvenience the responsible owners when it's not their fault.
?

But surely if it protects the animals from being neglected by irresponsible owners a bit of 'inconvenience' to you is not such a big deal ?

To be honest in all of your arguments on this thread all I 'hear' is 'I want and so I will have'

In life we cant always have what we want when we want it.

 

[thumps_]

You do need a license to own a raptor in Britain,
In referrance to the comments about exotic owners taking more care of their pets than 'normal' pets, i disagree.
My friend works in reptile rescue and see some horrendous cases caused by ignorance and neglect.
People see an animal , buy it because it's cute, different, unusual or just because they can- they do not research it or even have the facilities for it before they get it in many cases.
I myself have parrots who were fed a seed only diet, chinchillas who were fed peanuts as a treat and kept in tiny cages and a APH who was in a small cage, too cold and on shavings.

Personally, I think we have enough domesticated animals and have no need to domesticate any more, the lucky ones go to owners like the ones on here but how many end up dying or suffering through ignorance, boredom and neglect. No matter the animal, ones will be abused. Even the basics like finding a competent vet is nigh impossible for exotic keepers, so what about the welfare issues there, and before any body says vets should just find out about them- how and why, even the top specialists are learning and is it worthwhile for a vet to find out about exotics when they may only see one or two a year!
I do not agree the we should not have pets, I can't imagine my life without them but there needs to be a crack down on breeding and education on how to look after them.

Thank you halfpenny I think that summarises the situation nicely.
My great sadness is for our native species which have become almost extinct because of introduced species, red squirrel being the most "attractive" but there are plenty more eg our white crayfish is almost completely displaced by the imported signal crayfish etc.

 

[xlaurax]

I wish my rabbits could free range all day in safety and have a huge shed to live in etc.

Sadly I cannot provide this.

But I can provide free range time when I'm home and a safe, secure, warm, dry environment when I'm not. You might say it's not spacious enough but I love them dearly and am always thinking of ways I can make their lives better.

I think "cruel" is the wrong word to use in the first post.

 

[Kerryyyy]

You do need a license to own a raptor in Britain,
In referrance to the comments about exotic owners taking more care of their pets than 'normal' pets, i disagree.
My friend works in reptile rescue and see some horrendous cases caused by ignorance and neglect.
People see an animal , buy it because it's cute, different, unusual or just because they can- they do not research it or even have the facilities for it before they get it in many cases.
I myself have parrots who were fed a seed only diet, chinchillas who were fed peanuts as a treat and kept in tiny cages and a APH who was in a small cage, too cold and on shavings.

Personally, I think we have enough domesticated animals and have no need to domesticate any more, the lucky ones go to owners like the ones on here but how many end up dying or suffering through ignorance, boredom and neglect. No matter the animal, ones will be abused. Even the basics like finding a competent vet is nigh impossible for exotic keepers, so what about the welfare issues there, and before any body says vets should just find out about them- how and why, even the top specialists are learning and is it worthwhile for a vet to find out about exotics when they may only see one or two a year!
I do not agree the we should not have pets, I can't imagine my life without them but there needs to be a crack down on breeding and education on how to look after them.

Not meaning to jump in but I agree with this statement completely. .

 

[William]

People are more likely to neglect an exotic animal, because they have no idea how to care for it rather than abuse etc. Lots of people think "Oh I'll get a snake, or a bird or exotic animal because its soooo cool" and then realise that actually they're expensive and hard to care for. Lots of pet shops here sell exotics so they are very easy to come by.

Surely you want to get rid of irresponsible owners so the more things to put them off the better? Even if it is an inconvenience to you.
I honestly cannot see anything wrong with what you have just said (except nasty inspectors) it all makes sense to me! Why let people get away with cruelty when we could keep tabs on them and catch problems early? Having experience with raptors sounds like a brilliant idea! Certainly put people off buying birds on a will!

I think you have a very rose tinted idea of the UK, the lax regulations dont always work and Im sure the responsible raptor owners (and other pets) would agree that getting rid of idiots would be a good idea, even if it means bringing in strict rules like the ones in the US. We have alot of issues with neglect, and the RSPCA arent always the best at sorting it out, the idea of biyearly house checks sounds fantastic and I reckon it'd reduce cruelty a heck of a lot

Well, yeah, Florida's aren't too bad, but it's just about the only sane state here. I'm so thankful to live in Florida but I do worry it'll become corrupt like nearly every other state has Or that the government will create more bans on a federal level. No doubt HR669 bill will try to make a come back one day.

I think having experience with raptors is a good idea, I would want some anyways as they are a big commitment and if I'm going to free fly I imagine I need someone experienced to guide me, but 2 years worth?! At least raptors raptors that aren't native to North America don't require any permits.

The lax regulations in UK seem to work for really exotic animals. Of course, there's the occasional idiot that releases a pet. I've heard of raccoons and skunks in forests before (it was either New Forest or Forest of Dean, I forget which). But that is very rare.

You do need a license to own a raptor in Britain,
In referrance to the comments about exotic owners taking more care of their pets than 'normal' pets, i disagree.
My friend works in reptile rescue and see some horrendous cases caused by ignorance and neglect.
People see an animal , buy it because it's cute, different, unusual or just because they can- they do not research it or even have the facilities for it before they get it in many cases.
I myself have parrots who were fed a seed only diet, chinchillas who were fed peanuts as a treat and kept in tiny cages and a APH who was in a small cage, too cold and on shavings.

Personally, I think we have enough domesticated animals and have no need to domesticate any more, the lucky ones go to owners like the ones on here but how many end up dying or suffering through ignorance, boredom and neglect. No matter the animal, ones will be abused. Even the basics like finding a competent vet is nigh impossible for exotic keepers, so what about the welfare issues there, and before any body says vets should just find out about them- how and why, even the top specialists are learning and is it worthwhile for a vet to find out about exotics when they may only see one or two a year!
I do not agree the we should not have pets, I can't imagine my life without them but there needs to be a crack down on breeding and education on how to look after them.

Exotic is a broad term with many different meanings but when I say exotic I usually mean very unusual pets like kinkajous, civets, coatis, etc. These animals are neglected much less often than parrots and reptiles and such. Partly because not as many people have them but also because breeders do inform buyers of their care and of course most people that have very unusual animals have to be interested in exotics first or they probably wouldn't have even heard of them. Yeah, a lot of parrots and reptiles are neglected...but then, there are dedicated communities of parrot owners and reptiles owners who promote proper care. I have parrots and reptiles myself

I've already searched for good exotic vets in my state for the various exotics I plan on getting and there's quite a lot. Just depends on where you live.

But surely if it protects the animals from being neglected by irresponsible owners a bit of 'inconvenience' to you is not such a big deal ?

To be honest in all of your arguments on this thread all I 'hear' is 'I want and so I will have'

In life we cant always have what we want when we want it.

If it actually did protect animals from being neglected...yeah, I guess it'd be worth it. Regulations are more to protect the public than the animal but I suppose both benefit. But come on, who's going to get, say, a serval and have no idea how to care for it? They cost thousands of dollars and chances are you'll be put on a waiting list since they're in high demand, so you probably can't impulse buy one. Plus, as i said, the breeder will educate people, both for the owner and animal's benefit and as well as for the hobby as a whole since all it takes is one person to neglect their exotic pet or let it escape and then the stupid government uses that as an excuse to start banning animals :roll:

 

[BattleKat]

this debate is getting really juicy! I dont think it's healthy though to put all forum users into one category, we all have individual opinions/lifestyles.

it's a shame this debate is about 60 years too late (my guess at when we started domesticating rabbits, but i havent looked it up so could be wrong!)

I think rabbits were domesticated in the 1600s. :lol:
to be fair, I don't think they took off as pets until the 19th century.

[/B]
To be honest in all of your arguments on this thread all I 'hear' is 'I want and so I will have'

In life we cant always have what we want when we want it.

ditto.
There should be enforced laws to protect the welfare of ANY animal species (dangerous or not), I can't imagine why anyone would disagree with that unless they really didn't give a toss about what happens to the animals.

 

[halfpenny]

Sorry William I disagree.

If people have money is does not make them any more careful about what they buy.

Here we have macaws being sold for over £1000 pounds, but there are plenty of rescues taking in parrots neglected and damaged.
Supply=demand, the animals you do not consider as exotic once were and would have cost a lot more than they do now. As people want an animal the breeders full the gap- look at dogs, not exotic but when I was young you never saw a Staffies, they became popular for various reasons, everybody started breeding them and now thousands are being PTS a year.
I know it will not be the same extreme but it will happen with any animal at any level.
Those who have large cats, how can they possibly give them the stimulation and space they need, same with monkeys.
I say thank god for restrictions on exotic animals- knowing of a marmoset, kept on his own, fed only baby rice and slowly going made- I wish they would be more strict with which animals can be kept.

May I ask why you want all these animals, is it for you or for them, is it to be different?

 

[Crunchie]

ditto.
There should be enforced laws to protect the welfare of ANY animal species (dangerous or not), I can't imagine why anyone would disagree with that unless they really didn't give a toss about what happens to the animals.

Totally agree with this, I wish it were harder to get hold of and sell any animal in this country especially some of the exotics which can currently be bought by anyone.

 

[thumps_]

I wish my rabbits could free range all day in safety and have a huge shed to live in etc.

Sadly I cannot provide this.

But I can provide free range time when I'm home and a safe, secure, warm, dry environment when I'm not. You might say it's not spacious enough but I love them dearly and am always thinking of ways I can make their lives better.

I think "cruel" is the wrong word to use in the first post.

I've looked at the pictures & your rabbits look just fine, happy buns, having a whale of a time with that washing up bowl. It's lovely you've got a pair.
In fact most rabbits are crepuscular - most active in the morning & evening & spend most of the day lying up (in burrows if they're wildies) When some owners have a chance to spend day time at home with them eg. hols, they're often disappointed that "nothing much happens" in the day. :lol:
My boy has a great time between 6.00am & 10.00pm but he's sleeping under the dressing table now, & won't wake up until about 5.00pm. It's normal rabbit rythmn.

 

[William]

Sorry William I disagree.

If people have money is does not make them any more careful about what they buy.

Here we have macaws being sold for over £1000 pounds, but there are plenty of rescues taking in parrots neglected and damaged.
Supply=demand, the animals you do not consider as exotic once were and would have cost a lot more than they do now. As people want an animal the breeders full the gap- look at dogs, not exotic but when I was young you never saw a Staffies, they became popular for various reasons, everybody started breeding them and now thousands are being PTS a year.
I know it will not be the same extreme but it will happen with any animal at any level.
Those who have large cats, how can they possibly give them the stimulation and space they need, same with monkeys.
I say thank god for restrictions on exotic animals- knowing of a marmoset, kept on his own, fed only baby rice and slowly going made- I wish they would be more strict with which animals can be kept.

May I ask why you want all these animals, is it for you or for them, is it to be different?

But like I said before, not all restrictions are the same and they're not all fair. Very few are fair. And we don't need the government telling us what we're allowed anyway.

Like with Ohio, all because of that guy that committed suicide in Zanesville and let all his animals loose (reportedly- there are conspiracy theories that animal rights nuts killed him and let all his animals go. Wouldn't be the first time animal rights nuts have gotten violent over private keepers) there are now ridiculous bans and regulations being put in place in Ohio. I mean, look at the quote below. It's crazy :evil::evil::evil:

ODA Director must go through the General Assembly (new bill) to add more animals to the ‘dangerous wild animal’ or ‘restricted snake’ list.
Marmosets, capuchins, squirrel monkeys and lemurs were removed from the ‘dangerous’ list; they still have to be registered & meet the standards of care, but are otherwise exempt (no insurance or permit fees required, and they can buy/sell/trade)
Permit fees were changed to:
1-3 dangerous wild animals: $250/yr
4-10 dangerous wild animals : $500/yr
11-15 dangerous wild animals: $1000/yr
16+ dangerous wild animals: $1000/yr plus $125 for each additional animal over 15
Insurance on 1-5 dangerous wild animals dropped from $250,000 to $200,000
Rescue facilities can acquire but not purchase animals
AZA and ZAA must register their animals like everyone else but are otherwise exempt
If owner is unable to pay the costs of quarantine/transfer, lien will be put on their property
Establishment of an Emergency Response Commission

http://www.raskbb.com/sybilsden/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=9242&hilit=big+cat+rescue

Thankfully we (the exotic community) fight them or else you all would have your wish and all animals would be banned or regulated. It reminds me of this:

"First, they came for the Pit Bulls,
but you didn't speak out because you don't have a Pit Bull.
Then they came for the German Shepherds,
but you didn't speak out because you don't have a German Shepherd.

Then they came for the Akitas,
but you didn't speak out because you don't have an Akita.

Then they came for the Boxers,
but you didn't speak out because you don't have a Boxer.

When they come for your dog,
will anyone speak out for you?"

The government wants to ban everything and I highly doubt they've got the animals best interests at heart. In the UK (as well as some places over here) you've got a ban on pit bulls. And no one really spoke out until dogs like Lennox got killed, did they? That wasn't such a great ban was it :roll: As I understand it, pit bulls are still everywhere (as they should be) and people's beloved pets can be seized and killed for no reason. That was such a great law :roll: I'm so glad the government ensures we're safe from vicious animals.

As to your last question - because I love them. Why else does anybody get pets?

 

[*lily*]

I've looked at the pictures & your rabbits look just fine, happy buns, having a whale of a time with that washing up bowl. It's lovely you've got a pair.
In fact most rabbits are crepuscular - most active in the morning & evening & spend most of the day lying up (in burrows if they're wildies) When some owners have a chance to spend day time at home with them eg. hols, they're often disappointed that "nothing much happens" in the day. :lol:
My boy has a great time between 6.00am & 10.00pm but he's sleeping under the dressing table now, & won't wake up until about 5.00pm. It's normal rabbit rythmn.

Louie's the same, he goes out for a run at around 6am when I get up. By 7am he is back inside and will sleep mostly until late afternoon. He likes another run at around 8pm.