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Challenges bonding two spayed females--is this a lost cause?

spillers

Young Bun
I have two buns, a lionhead mix and a rex. I had the lionhead first and she has always been kind of shy, never aggressive to me. Her name is Lily and she lived the first 8-10 weeks of her life as a feral bunny, but now, 8 or 9 months later, likes being petted and has always--I thought--been gentle and sweet, if a bit skittish. She has lived in a bunny room in my house where she can run around safely when I am home and has a cage for when I am at work. She was spayed at 6 or seven months (in early Oct).

Enter SD in november. SD was a 7 or 8 month old male, I was told, who was in immediate need of a home. I was specifically looking to adopt a male because I understood that male/female bonding is much easier than female/female bonding. However, when I took him to my vet, we discovered that "he" was a "she". The vet suggested I put the two together to see if they got along, prior to spaying/committing to SD, but I was hesitant to do so as everything I read said that with two females, there was little chance of bonding unless both were spayed--and I did not want to scupper any chances by a bad beginning. (My worry at this point was actually about whether SD would attack Lily; I thought Lily would just be scared of SD-and indeed, I put their two cages near each other in a neutral space at one point in early December, before SD was spayed, and Lily just hid--so I moved the rabbits apart again). I wrote to the US House Rabbit Society at this time, and again more recently, to see if they knew of an experienced bonder in Korea by any chance (there is no HR chapter here), but they never responded. Finally, I spayed SD in December because I really wanted to bond these girls and also did not want to continue to maintain two separate rabbit spaces. Meanwhile, of course, I have also become quite fond of SD! So do not want to rehome either rabbit, really. So, I bit the bullet and got SD spayed to give bonding the best possible shot.

Four week later, I moved SD's cage into the room where Lily's cage was. This was a mistake and I knew it, but was somewhat stuck as there were workmen rewiring and painting and whatnot in the other rooms, so this was the one room big enough for both where no work was being done. I put the cages about 6 inches apart and created a partial wall/barrier (so each rabbit could get out of the line of sight of the other, if they wanted, and made sure each cage had a hidey box. But, I made sure there was a clear viewing space, too, so they could see each other while eating at a safe distance apart). Between the cages I put up a dog fence, basically diving the room in half, so that each bun could have her own safe run space as well.

SD pretty much ignored Lily, but to my surprise, each time Lily was let out into her run area, she would charge the dog fence and almost frantically try to get through to SD--pretty clearly with no kindess in her heart. At these times, if I got near Lily, she would whirl around and bite me! Even if I was not touching her, she was that agitated. (Lily has never done anything like that before.) SD was always in her cage at these times ( I alternate run/human interaction time), except for once--in that case, she extended her nose to the fence/to Lily, and Lily threw herself at the fence and even got part of head through. I think she got a bit of a bite in on SD's nose.

After two weeks of this "same room cohabitation" and the workmen now gone, I moved both rabbit cages into my guest room about 4 days ago, thinking a neutral space would be better. Now they have a clear view of each other at all times, but the cages are still about 5" apart. Lily's behavior is getting worse, not better. When I approach her cage now, she runs to the bars instead of running into her hidey box like she used to, and always seems agitated. When I put food in her cage, she is extremely agitated and now is beginning to look like she is thinking about biting me when I put my hand in there--totally new behavior. I think it is only a matter of time before her increased terrorial behavior leads to biting, frankly. Further, she eats her hay frantically now, or quickly moves it away from the part of the cage close to SD's cage.(Neither rabbit can get the other's food.) When I put food in SD's hayrack, Lily starts lunging at the cage bars--but after a minute or so, everyone just starts eating and it calms down. (SD continues to largely ignore Lily.) But the point is, Lily is getting worse, not better, with the increased exposure. I am truly afraid to let these buns in the same space because I think Lily is just going to launch into an attack--and I do not want SD to get hurt or terrorized. SD slipped out (neither bun gets runtime in this particular room as I do not have a way to divide this bigger space) when I was giving her fresh water the other day and scrambled through the space between the cages, and Lily literally flung herself at the bars trying to get at her--SD is just lucky an ear didn't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So, I have a clearly unhappy/angry/hostile rabbit and a rather blase one, but the situation is not improving with extended exposure. And, I cannot seem to find a society or person experienced in bonding here. Are there changes I should make in my approach? I am completely inexperienced with this and it also makes me totally tense. How should I respond to Lily's increasing agitation? Should I separate them to diffferent rooms again, or leave them where they are but put up a wall so they cannot see each other? Or, should I just keep things as they are and see if things get better in a month or two or three? That is what I would be inclined to do, were it not for Lily's increasing anxiety/hostility (which must be stressful for SD, too). But as it is, I just don't know... The end goal is to bond these two rabbits--but is it even possible?

Sorry for this novel of a post. I know it is long one! Any advice would be most appreciated as I really do not know what to do next, or whether this is indeed a lost cause. I feel sorry for both bunnies--I was trying to make their individual situations better, but it seems to have had rather the opposite effect...
 
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Hello :wave: It's a real shame you don't have anyone experienced in bonding around to help you as it is definitely harder to bond two same sex bunnies. Having said that, I don't think that you can draw any conclusions from their current behaviour. Lily is simply displaying normal territorial behavoiur that I would expect to be when there is another rabbit near her territory. Rabbits behave totally differently when they are put together in neutral territory. I have bonded a few pairs where the owners said that the rabbits were extremely aggressive towards each other when they could see each other in their normal houses.

I would, however, proceed with caution. I do think it might be worth putting the two rabbits in separate rooms if you can, and dealing with Lily first so that you don't smell of SD when you go to see her. It might help Lily to just calm down a little as it seems that she is very upset with having another bunny so close to her own territory. I would also wait a little longer as SD has not been spayed all that long and it may be helpful to give a few more weeks.

When I have done bondings like this before, I have put them together in a small neutral territory (maybe even the base of a pet carrier or similar for a while to start off with, as they can't chase each other much in there and you will find it easier to supervise). If Lily seems likely to be more aggressive - which she may not be on neutral territory anyway, but just in case - I would start off by placing my hand across her back and holding her across her shoulders, so that I can hold her back if she starts to lunge at the other bunny. If she heads towards SD with her ears up and her tail down, I would keep my hand across her shoulders lightly and let her sniff - but if her ears go back and her tail up, I would put a little more pressure on her shoulders so she cannot lunge and bite SD. Some people will just leave them to sort things out on their own, but personally I prefer to take it much more slowly at least for the first few hours. After this, both bunnies may have settled down slightly once they have realised that the other bunny is not going to bite or chase them as soon as they approach.

You will need several days clear to watch them - including sleeping with them - as the relationship is likely to change over the first few days. Keep a very close eye out for tail up/ears back, as that tends to indicate that a bunny is about to launch an attack.

There is lots more bonding information on here if you have a look around, but I wouldn't say that there is no point in trying, as bunnies are very different on neutral territory than they are on their own.

Good luck xxx
 
I am actually very relieved to hear that I shouldn't draw any conclusions from their current behavior and that this is normal territorial behavor (and that it might be completely different on truly neutral territory), as for me it just looks like such an extreme change in behavior that I was really getting concerned that there was no hope. And, I do want there to be hope as I am fond of both these rabbits and the purpose, after all, was to give them each a friend.

I will move Lily back to her own room tomorrow and leave SD where she is. I agree that will be better as Lily is really upset right now. I am quite nervous about bonding them and keep hoping I am going to come across someone here who does it because I'd much prefer to hand them over to someone who knows how to do it, specifically, how to read them and how to handle them when things go south. (I'm afraid I am too likely to intervene too soon out of nervousness and an abundance of caution, since all I know is what I have read online or watched on YouTube.)

Despite my rather well developed trepidation at this point, I may well end up having to do the bonding myself anyway, so appreciate the tips on holding her during the initial meeting, which I had not read before. I think now Lily lunges aggressively (from inside her cage or on the other side of the fence) with her ears fully upright, not back. What does that mean? When SD came forward to sniff noses with Lily, her ears were definitely flat forward, almost horizontal to the floor. She seemed just curious/cautious, but Lily still tried to bite her through the fence.

Thank you for your very helpful (and reassuring) comments! I realize it may it not work in the end anyway, but it sounds like it is not predetermined at this stage to not work, and that is very good to hear.
 
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I took the advice given and moved Lily back to her own room and all is back to normal--she's the "old Lily" again. Poor SD is in the spare bedroom by herself, but I imagine everyone's stress level must have decreased. I still hope I can bond them someday in the not too distant future....and will keep looking for someone to help with that, because I find the prospect quite intimidating!
 
OK, my two girls have now been apart again for a week, each in her own room, and I have off Monday, so am thinking of trying this 48 hour bonding method in my bathtub. There are a couple of things I do not quite understand, though, maybe someone can clear these up for me?


1. In the bath, do I put a towel down to make it not slippery, or do I avoid the towel to keep it slippery? (I have read both recommendations)

2. If they manage to coexist without a fight for 48 hours, then what? Do they do into the hutch together on Tuesday? I work so won't be home to supervise...

3. The other method I have read (more widely, actually) about is not keeping them together for 48 hours, but rather having short "dates", with each successive, successful meeting being followed by one a bit longer. If Lily continues to go for SD, do I wait and try the 48 hour method again, or do I switch to the "dating" method? Or, since Lily has not had at all a positive reaction to SD to date (when there cages were close together in a neutral space), do I just do the "dating" method from the outset?

4. With either method, if they actually fight (or look like they are seriously about to), and I separate them, how soon do I try again?

5. Since Lily did not like SD from the outset (when their cages were close), should I start with something mildy stressful the very first time they are in the same space, e.g., have my elderly, but curious, dog in the bathroom, or put them in a box on top of the clothes washer when it is spinning?

My vet, who specialized in bunnies, said she thought it was going to be very hard, if not impossible, to bond them given Lily's reaction when their cages were together in a neutral space (bedroom). So, I am not expecting this to be smooth. In this situation, appreciate any advice about the best way to proceed! Yikes, just thinking about this is nervewracking, I must say.
 
Where are you up to todat Spillers? I will try to help.

Thank you! I am sadly up to nowhere, as I totally chickened out and was not really sure of how to proceed (given Lily's previous hostility). What I *think* is likely to happen is that Lily will instantly attack SD. I'll separate them and then....do I put them back in their respective homes and wait (how long?) to try again, or try again pretty much right away?

If they have fur pulling but not a full on fight, then I leave them at it (is that right?) and keep them in the bath for 48 hours? But if they have a full on fight, then I remove them or..?

(I am not sure I understand the point at which fur pulling looks like it will become/does become a full on fight, part of my hesitation as I do not want either bun to get hurt. I watched some youtube videos and it looked like one rabbit dashed in - short intense scuffle--then ran away, repeat, repeat, and it looked pretty stressful, but not sure which category that was, fight or fur pulling. Looked rather like short fights to me...)

Since I expect Lily to attack SD, I wondered if I should start right off with the slightly stressful outside force, like having the dog in the bathroom, or putting them on the washer to start with..or am I better off keeping that for later?

If I need 48 hours and that is better than the "dating" method, then I will need to wait until the weekend as I am back to work tomorrow.
 
I have 25 bonded pairs albeit mainly male/female pairs but most rabbits will eventually pair off with another rabbit. I have never used the bath so can't recommend that method.

I always bond rabbits by putting them together in a small area which has to be totally neutral to both of them ie somewhere neither has been so it doesn't have their smell in it. You can neutralise a cage etc by using 50/50 vinegar and water. It is also a good idea if they can remain in this space indefinitely.

Put the 2 rabbits in the space allocated with hay. Try to start early morning so you have a good long day to observe them. There will probably be chasing of one rabbit, if this gets a bit too aggressive shout at them to stop it and hopefully whhen they have calmed down praise them. This is so they "know" what you are expecting of them. Now put a little bit of food in, scatter it, so they get their minds on that and basically just keep going. Every minute they are together with no arguing, you are gaining ground. Each time there is a fallout shout at them till order is restored until they understand.

Now, normally, this continues for 2 or 3 days before the rabbits start to feel they can trust each other and start a friendship. Keep giving them bits to eat so they know they are still getting some food and water and hay of course.

If things don't progress as above and there is a lot of aggression between them I only allow fighting to continue for seconds and if I can't control them then things are not looking good I am afraid. You can't let them fight for too long as they might injure one another.

It is best if once they are put together they can remain together so any bonding is not broken or disrupted, although I have separated for the night but both must go back to their original homes. I have found that they just continue where we left off and in fact they seem more tolerant of one another the next day. Maybe they have had time to think it over and have decided it would be rather nice to have a bunny friend.

The one to watch is Lily because it is her territory and females are very territorial so tell her to be a good girl as she will be much happier with a friend. Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to give me some advice. It really is helpful as I am rather nervous about all this. I have a separate shower so they can stay in the bath for a few days (though I guess that means I need to stay in there for a few days, too), or I also have a large dog crate I could use (and I can put it in any room--a distinct advantage) but it's one of those airlines crates so I can't get into it very well if a fight breaks out -it only opens in the front; well, I guess I could lift the top half off to get in if I needed to and didn't bolt it together. That might work. Or, maybe I just put up the new hutch and run I just bought (which neither has seen yet) in another room they have not been in (lily may have sneakily have dashed in once long ago, like 8 months ago, but hopefully any smells have faded). That might be the best idea, as then I could move it to the bunny room after neutralizing that room (Lily's room, currently, and the only room the dogs can't get into) and the hutch itself would already belong to both of them, so to speak. Do you think that would be a good idea? Or maybe just set up the run part until after the bonding, so no one "claims" the hutch part?

I really hope they do not fight... I will definitely tell Lily to be a good girl and hope she listens!
 
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How are you getting on with the bonding? I too had the same experience as you. I bought a male to bond with my female then when i took 'him' to be neutered I found out he was a she! So I debated what to do and decided i couldn't part with her. So I am trying to bond them now.... it's slow process mainly because I'm too scared they will hurt each other. One is very timid and the other just nuts! Would love to know how you're getting on?
 
I have not tried yet, but will this weekend as I have three days off so if all goes well, I can supervise for that long, and if not, well, I can go back to the "dating" method. I am not at all confident that this will work out Lily was so badly behaved when they were side by side, but we'll see, right? I'll be sure to update to let you know how it is going. Plan is to set them up in the hutch/run combo thing in the sort of sitting room I have, where they have never been (or maybe Lily was in here once for a few minutes a long time ago), but where I can easily supervise, and then, if all goes well, sanitize the bunny room with lots of vinegar and move the hutch on in there. Idea being that they hopefully will already accept the hutch as joint property (but maybe that is human thinking). Or, failing that, the bath, but it is a lot easier to sit by the TV for three days than to sit by the tub for three days, methinks!

What happened when you put your girls together? Was it instant fighting? That's what I am afraid of, I swear Lily tuned into Cujo Bunny last time, but at least there were bars separating them.

I'm too scared, too!
 
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