Calcium in Oxbow Bunny Basic/T?

[Dollie]

One of my rabbits (Indy, male, six..) has got urinary problems, most likely calcium related. English is not my native language (?) (you probably already noticed ) so I have no idea how to call or explain it.

Anyways, now we have to make sure there is not too much calcium in his food. My vet thinks 0,3% is enough. Problem: His pellets (?) contain 0,6% and that is the best food you can get here in the Netherlands.. (Science Selective Mature.) I'm used to ordering from the UK, it's much cheaper, so I looked for good food here..

And I think I found it! Oxbow Bunny Basic/T contains a minimum of 0,35% which is good. But when I wanted to order at The Hay Experts, I noticed that the information there said the maximum is 0,85%?! And that's bad..

So first question is, how much calcium does it contain exactly? (I already emailed Oxbow the same question a few minutes ago..) And the second question is, we have a few 'rules' (or more like guidelines) to how much an adult rabbit should eat a day. With Science Selective this is about 10 to 15 grams (?) per kilo a day. What are the guidelines for this food? (Not a lot of people in the Netherlands that even KNOW Oxbow, so I thought I'd better ask here..)

Forgot to mention: Indy refuses to eat hay. I tried more than everything. So a vegetable/hay dieet is not an option.

And I'm really sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum, like I said, my English is not too good..

 

[Dollie]

Oh now I found the 'food-section', I'm sorry!

 

[SarahP]

I don't have a bag of Oxbow here to check, but I would agree that it is probably the lowest calcium pellet food available, since it's timothy-based.

 

[ecudc]

timothy hay usually contains around 0.35-0.45% calcium compared to alfafa which is what many of the others are based on which is around 1%...however I guess because of the different seasons of timothy it is probably harder to calculate the exact % for oxbow where as the other pellets being made from a blend of products can modify each quantity to give a much closer % match.

Not 100% sure but that is my best guess.

 

[Dollie]

According to my vet, most Dutch rabbit foods are based on timothy hay (that doesn't make them good, unfortunately) and most English foods are based on alfalfa.

But what would you do, switch from SS to the Bunny Basic?

edit; Something is wrong with the word 'foods'..

 

[hurricanhoney]

I use Bunny Basics Timothy for one of my bunnies and she always has a lovely soft coat and does well on it.

 

[bunny babe]

I use Bunny Basics T and my two have lovely coats. It is timothy hay based so is one of the pellets that is high in fibre (espeically if your bunny doesn't eat hay). As far as I know, it si the lowest in calcium too.

 

[Dollie]

Okay, but you don't know about the exact level of calcium? Because my two do well on Science Selective and have lovely coats as well.. Especially since I ordered like 10 kilo's of SS Mature a week ago, I really want to be sure this food will make a big improvement, I mean, with the calcium..

But indeed I read about the fibres, is it really that much? 25% minimum I believe? Quite a lot! I started feeding SS (normall) because of the 19%, then I learned about the SS Mature (I only give it to Indy, my other rabbit is 5 but he is healthy, eats hay.. So he still eats the normall SS) which contains 22% fibres.. But 25% is even better!

I will disguiss this food with my vet, I don't think he found anything better (he said he would look) but of course that is only if the calcium level is closer to 0,35% than to 0,85%. If it's 0,85% this wouldn't be an improvement at all.

 

[Tamsin]

This is the oxbow website: http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/ they have the details for all their foods. Calcium quoted is the minimum value not necessarily the actual value though.

Because pellets are quite concentrated they are usually the main source of excess calcium. Your vets recommendation of 0.6% isn't that helpful though as the actual amount of calcium would vary depending on how much food your rabbit ate. If he ate 30g of food he'd get twice as much calcium as eating 15g.

The best way to reduce calcium intake is to reduce dry food (or remove it completely) and increase vegetables/hay to compensate. Hay should be mainly grass based like orchard or meadow, Timothy is slightly higher in calcium and alfalfa is very high.

Providing you supply a good range of different vegetables and herbs you rabbit should get all the vitamins and minerals it needs (but not too much calcium).

 

[Dollie]

I know all that, but he won't eat hay (believe me, I tried EVERYTHING) and he does have teethproblems. He just can't miss those fibres. He now gets 25 grams a day.. And I already emailed Oxbow, I know all the information is on the website but as long as the website says that it's between 0.35% and 0.85% it doesn't really help..

By the way, my vet recommended 0.3% (or even 0.2%, I spoke to two different vets that day), not 0.6%. The food (SS Mature) I give now contains 0.6%.

If Indy would eat hay, I would have stopped with or at least reduced the pellets over a year ago. Just as I feed my cat and dog ehh.. KVV.. Raw meat? More natural at least.

 

[natandfluffs]

Not sure about the exact amount, but am sure that when I did my research it was the pellet with the highest fibre and lowest calcium levels.

I think if you are going to use a pellet it is probably the best that you will get :wave:

I think bunny basics t is timothy based and the oxbow bunny basics 15/23 is alfalfa based so depending which description you're looking at it might describe difference calcium levels.

I have a bun who is on bunny basics t and it has done him the world of good!

PS- have you tried the selection pack of hay from the hay experts? Mine wasn't big on hay (nibbled a bit but not a fan) and then we discovered oxbow timothy and also the oat hay... he goes nuts for oat hay and we haven't looked back!

 

[Dollie]

Jups, tried that.. Unfortunately he just doesn't think of hay as food.

My vet said he'd call (well the other vet said my vet would call but all the same ) and if he agrees, I think I'll order the Bunny Basic T..

And I'll wait what Oxbow has to say about the calcium.

 

[Dollie]

I accidentilly sent my email (that was meant for Oxbow) to The Hay Experts as well and just received this answer:

Oxbow are the only food company that quotes a range of nutritional values; they guarantee the analysis will fall between a given range - no more and no less. Other producers tend to quote the average value, and as a result consumers would not know the range of results which lead to the average value quoted.

This does not really help you much, I know. I guess all I can say is that with Oxbow you know exactly what you get. With the others it may be your bag of food could be a little higher or lower in calcium than the value quoted. The only way to be really sure is to test each bag!

So I guess that my Science Selective could easily contain 0,8% as well.. Or 0,4%..

 

[ecudc]

I know all that, but he won't eat hay (believe me, I tried EVERYTHING) and he does have teethproblems. He just can't miss those fibres. He now gets 25 grams a day

what exactly are his teeth problems? Is it inscisors or molar spurs? Is it caused by malocusion or simply becuase he does not eat hay? If malocusion & incisors then extraction would remove the problem and enable him to each hay which he really needs to do. It will also seriously cut down on your dental bill in the long run. If it is molar spurs then keeping on top of the dental work will encourage him to eat hay and the more hay you can get him to eat, the longer he will need between dentals. he may need a dental as often as every 3 weeks otherwise. You may say that he does not like hay but there are very few bunnies who will not eat it if everything else is restricted (unless of course they are sick or in pain). You can try and get them to get the hay habbit by

Always have hay in the litter tray! Bunnies like to munch and poo.

start with grass, grow your own in pots and give him a fresh pot every day...or a big handful from your garden twice a day

Next move on to something like readigrass or other dried grasses....mix it up with the fresh grass so they pick up some by mistake. A little grated carrot or herbs like parsley also helps.

Gradually start mixing in good quality hay in increasing proportions.

He should be on a very restricted diet at the time, the oxbow t pellets are probably a good idea & give him no more than 2 egg cupfuls a day + one small bowl of higher fibre leafy green veg (no carrots, fruit or other higher calorie veg). Unfortunately, assuming he is not in dental pain he will only start to eat hay when he is hungry.

If he is not currently living with another bunny, bonding (assuming both are neutered) to a bunny that does eat hay really ups the hay consumption as they discover exactly what they are missing.

 

[Dollie]

what exactly are his teeth problems? Is it inscisors or molar spurs? Is it caused by malocusion or simply becuase he does not eat hay?

I don't know, sorry. I mean, I do know, but only in Dutch. But it probably is caused by not eating hay: He is six and a half now, at five and a half the problems started. I don't think he ever ate any hay at all.

If malocusion & incisors then extraction would remove the problem and enable him to each hay which he really needs to do. It will also seriously cut down on your dental bill in the long run. If it is molar spurs then keeping on top of the dental work will encourage him to eat hay and the more hay you can get him to eat, the longer he will need between dentals. he may need a dental as often as every 3 weeks otherwise.


I'll have to disagree on this, his teethproblems where fixed last March and there is a tiny little 'thing' (don't know what it's called) back now, which is not causing any problems at all, he still eats like I never feed him.

You may say that he does not like hay but there are very few bunnies who will not eat it if everything else is restricted (unless of course they are sick or in pain). You can try and get them to get the hay habbit by

When I said I tried everything, I did mean everything. I think I haven't fed him for five days? At least three. Nothing.. (Yes, I counted every halm (?) I gave him.. That's how desperate you can get.)

Always have hay in the litter tray! Bunnies like to munch and poo.

He doesn't have a litter tray (anymore) because he drops it everywhere since he got sick.

start with grass, grow your own in pots and give him a fresh pot every day...or a big handful from your garden twice a day

I'm almost afraid to say, but he won't eat grass.. Not when I just give it to him, not mixed with his veggies, not even fresh from the garden (I mean when it still is in the garden)..

Next move on to something like readigrass or other dried grasses....mix it up with the fresh grass so they pick up some by mistake. A little grated carrot or herbs like parsley also helps.

Gradually start mixing in good quality hay in increasing proportions.

He should be on a very restricted diet at the time, the oxbow t pellets are probably a good idea & give him no more than 2 egg cupfuls a day + one small bowl of higher fibre leafy green veg (no carrots, fruit or other higher calorie veg). Unfortunately, assuming he is not in dental pain he will only start to eat hay when he is hungry.

I'm not going to give such a small amount of vegtables..

If he is not currently living with another bunny, bonding (assuming both are neutered) to a bunny that does eat hay really ups the hay consumption as they discover exactly what they are missing.

My parents do not want another bunny (if I'm lucky my other one who is still living outside will get a girlfriend soon..) besides he's not neutered and the condition he is in now? I''ll be lucky not to lose him, neutering him now would be like begging for trouble. This is the only thing I cannot say I've tried, but it's also the only thing that will probably never happen..

So unfortunately most of these things I've tried or they are not an option. I've answered in red..

 

[Dollie]

Does anyone have a picture of the Oxbow pellets? I'm just curious how much I should give him.. (Two egg cupfuls sounds reasonable but that depends on how big the pellets are as well of course..)

In fact, filled two egg cups with the SS Mature he gets now and it is exactly the amount I give him now..

 

[Dollie]

Ah he does have molar spurs..

 

[willowholly]

It seems to me whatever people suggest you get a little defensive,unless its just a language barrier.I hope you find the answer you want soon.

 

[Tamsin]

Grass/hay is really essential but it sounds like you have tried most of the usual tricks to get them to eat it.

I would still consider reducing pellets as they are more a substitute for vegetables (which he is eating) than hay.

Some veg is better than others you could try weed type plants and veg that is high in fibre. Herbs are also good. The key is to feed a wide variety so he gets a good range of nutrients.

Monitoring his weight over a couple of weeks will let you know if this is enough to support his energy needs.

 

[Lobo]

The object of these questions seems to me to find a diet containing almost no calcium. I would not think this is a direction to be taking. Rabbits need some calcium, without it there is the real risk of osteoporosis as well as further dental problems. Their teeth grow continuously and need some calcium to support this growth. What needs to be achieved is the balance between over and under supply of this calcium.

I have used Oxbow Bunny Basics/T for the past few years. When I first changed to it my vet commented on how much healthier my buns were. The lost surplus weight, their coats improved dramatically and they looked healthier overall. He was so convinced of the overall benefit that he changed his Mini Rex to these pellets as well.

In this part of the world there is nowhere near the variety of feeds available. For pellets we have the choice between a generic pellet labelled "rabbit pellets" with no analysis available. There is also "rabbit mix" which I think is similar to your muesli, again with no analysis and of more recent times Oxbow with full analysis. Given that it is a natural food base there will always be variation in the minimum and maximum yield of most components. Having a guaranteed set amount of calcium could only really be achieved by a fully synthesised pellet with regulated additives. Our most readily available hay is lucerne (alfalfa) which is high in calcium or my choice the much more expensive Oxbow Timothy hay.

To the OP, you are being given some excellent advice in this thread by some very knowledgeable and experienced rabbit people. Whether or not you choose to accept it is ultimately your decision, but bear in mind those offering this advice are passionate about the health and welfare of rabbits overall, not just their own.