Bonding my quad - help!

[Stargirl170]

Hi all, it's me again!

I took my bunnies, 2 males Nero and Jax and 2 females Smudge and Raven to Fat fluffs to be b Need for me as I've had no luck.

I posted a thread on this previously: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...at-Fluffs-rabbit-rescue&p=6807301#post6807301

Nero and Jax are brothers and got on well up until neutering - after they were neutered a big fight broke out causing a serious injury to Jax and they haven't gotten on seen and I have tried ro bond them several times. Nero has always been the dominant one and I guess Jax must have challenged that.
A few weeks back Nero had GI stasis and I decided to put Jax in the cage with him to try and encourage him to eat etc. They actually got on well for a whole week but then the fur went flying again after Nero got better.

My females smudge and Raven have always got on even after neutering, but there have been a few scraps.

When I tried to bond all 4 it was chaos in a cage and I decided to get help from fat fluffs.

Everything went well with them but Nero has a habit of biting bums, particularly Jax. After their fights Jax is very nervous around Nero too so if Nero bites his bum Jax can get skittish and try and run round the small cage they were bonded in. This can upset the 4 of them then. Thank fully there have been no fights or fur flying.

Before I got them back I scrubbed the room from top to botto. As advised and I set up a pen area as big as the indoor cage they were being bonded in at fat fluffs:

Brought them home and everything seemed okay although Jax sat in the corner away from the others. I slept downstairs that night and needless to say it was a sleepless night I got up countless times as Jax was trying to get away from Nero. In the end I ended up halving the size of the pen to push them together and limit space they could chase in:

Nero is still biting bums, particularly jaxs and Jax is still skittish even in this small area. Fat fluffs advised if there was any biting or trying to run, to 'pin' them down and stop them so they learn not to. I've done this a few times and I have also tried water spray but nothing seems to work. They have been in the smaller area for 48hours now.

Is there any advice on how I can stop the biting / skittish behaviour? Should I just leave them to figure it out?

I'm just scared in case a fight breaks out, I feel like I either need to sit and constantly watch (especially when they are more active at night) or check on them every 2 minutes.

Any advice would really be appreciated at this stage, I really want this quad to work! I've seen them all grooming each other and I've seen the boys doing it too, just not sure where to go from here!

 

[Stargirl170]

Does anyone have any advice please?

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[Casco]

I'm about to embark on my first bonding experience once my new female is recovered from her spay, Jax and Nero sound a bit like my boys with one regularly chasing the other & nipping his bum (no actual fighting though) so I'm interested to see how you get on. I have been told the water spray is quite effective so I'll be trying that but unfortunately I can't give you any useful advice, hope someone is able to help you soon.

 

[daphnephoebe]

I'd sit with them constantly & watch.
I'd sleep in the room with them so I'd wake up at any sound of fights.
I'd also be tempted to make the area slightly bigger (not as big as before, but enough so he can sit slightly away from them if wanted.

I've never done a quad so good luck! Hopefully someone else who's done quads will be along to give their opinion.

 

[Stargirl170]

I'm about to embark on my first bonding experience once my new female is recovered from her spay, Jax and Nero sound a bit like my boys with one regularly chasing the other & nipping his bum (no actual fighting though) so I'm interested to see how you get on. I have been told the water spray is quite effective so I'll be trying that but unfortunately I can't give you any useful advice, hope someone is able to help you soon.

I have tried water spray and that seemed to work at first although it doesn't seem to phase Nero now, although it does stop him so he can clean himself!

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[Stargirl170]

I'd sit with them constantly & watch.
I'd sleep in the room with them so I'd wake up at any sound of fights.
I'd also be tempted to make the area slightly bigger (not as big as before, but enough so he can sit slightly away from them if wanted.

I've never done a quad so good luck! Hopefully someone else who's done quads will be along to give their opinion.

I do sleep downstairs at the moment just in case!
I don't feel like I need to sit with them constantly as they are completely fine throughout the day, but this is when they are less active and I often see all four laying together. They seem to be OK through the night too it's just the early hours of the morning when they are more active.
There isn't any fighting but I can hear Jax trying to run around the cage if Nero nips his bum. There is never any fur but I'm still cautious just incase.

It's been several days now and I'd hope it would settle down. Not sure if I should give it more time or whether there is anything else I can do really!


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[joey&boo]

I've never bonded a quad either - sorry but I have bonded an awkward trio. It took forever but was so worth it.

Some groups bond really easily but many will require 10 x the patience & time of duo bonds. If it is just a little fur pulling I would try not to intervene.

How do Nero & Jax interact when they eat together ? Forage was a life saver for us, got them all doing something they enjoy together. All bunnies being stroked by me at the same time had a positive impact too.

 

[joey&boo]

I do sleep downstairs at the moment just in case!
I don't feel like I need to sit with them constantly as they are completely fine throughout the day, but this is when they are less active and I often see all four laying together. They seem to be OK through the night too it's just the early hours of the morning when they are more active.
There isn't any fighting but I can hear Jax trying to run around the cage if Nero nips his bum. There is never any fur but I'm still cautious just incase.

It's been several days now and I'd hope it would settle down. Not sure if I should give it more time or whether there is anything else I can do really!


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I'm slow at typing so cross posted. No fur & no aggression means they are doing brilliant. I'd continue for sure. You'll probably find the loving times increase & attempts to bum nip reduce - although probably with the occasional step back.

 

[Stargirl170]

I've never bonded a quad either - sorry but I have bonded an awkward trio. It took forever but was so worth it.

Some groups bond really easily but many will require 10 x the patience & time of duo bonds. If it is just a little fur pulling I would try not to intervene.

How do Nero & Jax interact when they eat together ? Forage was a life saver for us, got them all doing something they enjoy together. All bunnies being stroked by me at the same time had a positive impact too.

Thanks Joey&boo, I'm feeling a bit more positive about things now, they eat really well together, I tend put all 4 rabbits vegetables in a big bowl and then tip it into the middle of the cage and spread it out a bit so no one is left out. I heard that eating together is a good social activity for rabbits so I think that is helping

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[joey&boo]

You feeling more positive is great, I think that is half the battle. I hope it continues to go well

 

[Amy104]

It all sounds normal to me - keep up the good work. Scattering feed a good idea long term aswell not just during bonding as I've found you get quite a problem of thin/fat rabbits if bowl fed as its harder for everyone to get a fair share in a group as opposed to a pair.

 

[Stargirl170]

Hello all

So its now been a week since my last update. Nero is still biting bums and jax is still trying to run away and being skittish. There has occasionally been a bit of fur pulled out but nothing major, no injuries and no fights. As before, the biting/chasing tends to happen majority of the time during the early hours. For the rest of the day they are chilled out and I've seen them lying out and snuggling.

I hate the fact they are still in a small space and they haven't had chance to run around outside all week but I'm scared to death of moving them or upsetting the bonding! I only move them into a similar size space when I have to clean them out.

I was brave enough to make their pen a tiny bit bigger the other day but that is it. I really need advice on what to do next! Should I make the pen bigger? I'm just worried if I give too much space then the biting/running around could get worse and a fight could break out.

Opinions please!

 

[joey&boo]

A week after trying to bond my three in a small space I gave up as it was damn uncomfortable & they didn't appear to make any progress. I actually preferred loads of space, Mouse could escape bitey Boo & it all felt more natural. After this it took many more months for them to all bond securely & Boo remains a bossy cow & Mouse remains flighty - just less so. It is really difficult when they don't bond easily & I really don't know what to advise. If they were going to be vicious I think they would have done that already. If your instincts are saying try them in bigger space I'd say go for it

 

[daphnephoebe]

I'm with Joey&boo. It sounds like they've hit a wall in bonding and you need to give them a push.
I wouldn't go huge on the space as it'd be difficult if all hell broke lose, but I'd increase it. (Maybe double what it is now? )

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[Amy104]

I've never had much success using large spaces either though i know some members have, mine have always done better with a slow increase. I know it feels mean seeing them so enclosed but its worth it in the end.

 

[Stargirl170]

Thanks all, I decided yesterday to put them all out in the garden together - I know they enjoy it out there and thought it might make them happier after being stuck in a small space for a week! I didn't allow access to the whole garden and I set up a bit of a run instead. This did make them happier although Jax and Nero's behaviour was still the same.

I have made the indoor space bigger now - not double the size yet as I wasn't confident enough to do that. I also decided to put one of their big hay toys in and so far so good - everything seems to be going okay and they can have a bit of space from each other if needed. I think the hay ball also helps as it gives them something to play with and distract them from each other if they are bored.

I'll see how it goes tonight - early hours of the morning are usually the worst so I'll see if there is any difference!

 

[daphnephoebe]

Fingers crossed

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[4BunMum]

I have three mixed brothers and a female dwarf. Bondig them is hard work because the boys are a few months older than Juliette. They already had an established group, and then she came along. At first they hated her being in their space, chinning all of their stuff, but after careful watching, they all stay in the same pen indoors, and when they get free roaming in the garden she's in charge. The boys have been neutered and I think that helped a lot. Over night is still iffy though, and we alternate who goes in the hutch and who stays in the pen. Maybe this might work for you? Have play time together, but have nap time separate

 

[willow and squiggles]

ive bonded 2 successful quads and there is 1 bun in both quads that gives the odd bum nip, they are the boss buns, the others have learned to except it and take it as a telling off now lol.. I did try to bond the 2 quads together as an 8 but a male from each quad really dont like each other and they still fight through the hutch bars if i dont watch. I dont think i will ever get them to like each other, i would pay loads of money if i could get them to bond lol.. Your buns sound like what i had at the start of my quad bonds and it really does sound like they will get there. They need to sort out whos boss without letting them fight. Once one gives in and accepts whos boss it should be fine. good luck, you sound like your doing great xxx