Bonded pair - new behaviour issues

[mccrayon]

Hi!
I've been reading this forum for a few months now, and have just registered, so apologies if I ask any repeat questions/this goes in the wrong section!

Basically, in January last year we got our first rabbit, who we named Diego. We got him from Pets At Home - we actually saw this jet black bunny my OH fell in love with, but the PAH worker said that female bunnies can be quite difficult, especially as a first bunny, and suggested we see this identical male bunny who was out the back (she explained that he had been out the front, but no one bought him so they moved him out the back!) of course we fell in love with him and his sad tale, so we took him home. We learned *a lot* about bunnies in the time after that, and are still learning now! Diego was this cute, happy, loving little bunny who would kiss your nose if you were on the floor next to him, and was always binkying. In May, we went to PAH to top on hay etc, and I saw this adorable, cheeky faced bunny with a lion's mane and instantly fell in love. Even though she was female, we bought her, as we had been planning to neuter Diego anyway, having read that it is advised to do so, and can help reduce the chewing-the-furniture behaviour etc. We took her home, and she was so different to Diego, who was a shy, nervous boy when we first got him - she was running and jumping all over the place, exploring everything - so of course, we named her Dora.

We kept them apart, with their own cage (they're both indoor bunnies) and separated by a pen enclosure type fence/gate for the few days between bringing her home, and his neutering appointment. She was only mildly interested in seeing him through the gate, more interested in absolutely everything around her, whereas he was leaving little droppings (I don't know if I'll ever be able to eat Nesquik cereal again having a bunny, and is that just a co-incidence that their mascot is a bunny eating bunny poo shaped cereal?!) and oinking all the time, with the occasional foot-stamp. We made sure that we gave him plenty of attention as we had read that they get jealous. Anyway, Diego's neutering did not go very well, and the poor boy ended up staying at the vets for 5 weeks. Then when he came back it was a matter of keeping them separate again for a few weeks. We eventually let them be together and tried to start the bonding process. The first attempt did not go so well, and we left it for a while longer. Eventually we let them have short amounts of time together, eating together, that kind of thing and it worked - now they won't be separated, and it's *so* cute. However, once they were bonded, Diego pretty much stopped talking to us! He's still a cutey, never violent (he'll scratch at your feet if you're "in his way" (even though there's often a gap big enough for him to get through) but he's nothing like some stories I've heard about angry bunnies). However, he won't kiss us anymore, barely likes to be petted - he'll actually get up and walk away if we try to pet him now, and sometimes he'll bat your hand away from him if you try to pet him. We thought at first that he was mad at us for his 5 week vet stay, but if that's the case, he's *very* good at holding a grudge - or maybe he just doesn't care about us anymore, now he has her? Or maybe he's not a baby anymore, so he's just changed?

Anyway, lately, he's begun oinking at her again (the oinking had pretty much stopped, or at least greatly reduced, a few weeks after the neutering) and we've noticed him to trying to mount her, and vice versa. Sometimes one will let the other start it, but most of the time, Dora just runs away. However last night, we looked in on them, and saw them circling each other which is something we've never seen before - it was completely different to the excited circles they run in when there's food around. It was as if their sides were glued to each other, there wasn't a gap between them, but they were going round and round in circles. It didn't look good, and seeing as we didn't recognise this behaviour, we split them up. A couple of minutes later and everything was back to normal. Very weird.

An hour or so later though, I was preparing their veg, and my OH looked over and noticed them humping, but far more than we've ever seen before (normally it's biting the back and moving their arms either side, that's about as far as it goes before we stop them) - this time, she was lying out with her arms in front of her and tail up. It was not a nice thing to see - I don't know if that behaviour means she wanted to do it, or if he was making her. Of course rabbits don't act like humans, but it's easy to not be comfortable with that kind of thing when you treat them like your children! We broke it up, but he kept chasing her to mount her again, and then it stopped. Ten minutes later, and she's trying to mount him! We waited a while, everything seemed fine, and we said good night to them.

Cut to this morning, they are being normal with each other, but some of Diego's fur is strewn across the room. We checked him over and he's absolutely fine - can't even see where the fur came from. However, after breakfast, for a good hour and half, she would run out into the living room, stop, then he would come running out to her (whilst oinking), and she would sprint back into their room, and he would follow. It all looked very playful, but after last night's behaviour, I'm not sure if it is cute & playful, or if he's really bugging her. I thought maybe she was in heat and it's bugging him even though he's been neutered, but I read that bunnies are always in heat (?)

So my questions are:
Do we let them just go at it if they're going to start humping each other?
If we let them carry on, is there a point when we should break it up in case it gets violent?
Do bunnies oink in a playful way, or only when they're horny?
Is it usual for bunnies to be fine with each other and them randomly one day start fighting?
In regards to Diego changing - do you think it's a post neutering grudge/changed because he grew up/doesn't care about us now he has Dora/anything else?


Apologies for rambling so much, I just thought some back story might help with the "diagnosis"

Many thanks for any help/advice, we want the best for these two, and we're always learning about them, so your advice is greatly appreciated! We live by the 'they only have us' rule, so we want to give them the best lives we can.

 

[natsusakura]

1. He's a big boy now, he has a wife and maybe doesn't want as much attention as he did before.
If you spend a lot of time with him on the floor giving him his fav herbs etc it should help to make him want more noserubs.
2. Its coming into spring, even though he's neutered he may still hump and honk as its deeply ingrained in his genetics to do this at this time of year.
3. The mounting and humping can also be a sign of dominance issues, the fact your girlie isn't spayed the humping could indicate that she is hormonal and is perhaps picking a fight/ enticing him to hump her etc.
Get her spayed asap and this should stop the frenzy
4. Now they are bonded when you get dora spayed you need to take Diego in with her and he should be allowed to stay overnight with her if she needs to stay in.
If your vets say they don't allow that change vets as they will not be bunny savvy. If they are kept seperate nit only can it break their bind but it can make dora sad and it'll take longer to heal for her. I'm speaking from experience, I accidentally separated a bonded pair after angel was spayed as parsley was humping her and I was worried, the bond broke down. Also some buns will refuse to eat if their partner isn't with them, which im sure you'll know is very bad.
What was so wrong with him that poor Diego was in the vets for 5weekz?
Poor wee guy and stressful for you!
I take it they're both vaccinated as well aye?

 

[mccrayon]

Hi Natsusakura!

Thank you for your response!

I'll answer you by each of the points you made

1. This makes a lot of sense, I guess we'll have to come to terms with him having grown up. It's been such a quick year though, time really does go too fast!
2. Oh wow, I didn't even think of genetics/it being Spring etc. That's very interesting!
3. I can quite imagine Dora being a flirt towards Diego, actually, she's quite cheeky. This makes sense now you say it!
We keep talking (and avoiding talking) about getting Dora spayed - we've read everywhere that it's a good thing to get done, but I worry that it'll change her personality (she's so lively and mischievous!) but also having read/heard many stories about complications with that op, which is meant to be worse for girls than it is for boys - and knowing how bad it was for Diego.. we're just very put off by it.
4. I had no idea you could do this. I will definitely be talking to my vets about this! Thank you for the heads up! This makes sense actually. We took them into the vets for their vaccinations and to get Dora checked out (turns out she had ear mites) individually, and when they each came home, it was very weird - a strange atmosphere between them, with Diego bowing his head like he was being told off by her. So now you've explained that, it makes far more sense!

Yes, we get them both vaccinated - they're both now on the new vaccine, which they only need to get once a year to cover Mixi (sp?) and VHD.

Diego had complications mostly due to the fact that he kept licking his wound, which ended up causing an infection, which wouldn't clear. He kept getting his cone off, and in the end had another operation. It was so sad for him, but we visited him often, and the vets and staff were very friendly & understanding. We took him in a couple of weeks ago for his vaccination and everyone who saw him recognised him and were happy to see him which was nice.

 

[natsusakura]

Hi Natsusakura!

Thank you for your response!

I'll answer you by each of the points you made

1. This makes a lot of sense, I guess we'll have to come to terms with him having grown up. It's been such a quick year though, time really does go too fast!
2. Oh wow, I didn't even think of genetics/it being Spring etc. That's very interesting!
3. I can quite imagine Dora being a flirt towards Diego, actually, she's quite cheeky. This makes sense now you say it!
We keep talking (and avoiding talking) about getting Dora spayed - we've read everywhere that it's a good thing to get done, but I worry that it'll change her personality (she's so lively and mischievous!) but also having read/heard many stories about complications with that op, which is meant to be worse for girls than it is for boys - and knowing how bad it was for Diego.. we're just very put off by it.
4. I had no idea you could do this. I will definitely be talking to my vets about this! Thank you for the heads up! This makes sense actually. We took them into the vets for their vaccinations and to get Dora checked out (turns out she had ear mites) individually, and when they each came home, it was very weird - a strange atmosphere between them, with Diego bowing his head like he was being told off by her. So now you've explained that, it makes far more sense!

Yes, we get them both vaccinated - they're both now on the new vaccine, which they only need to get once a year to cover Mixi (sp?) and VHD.

Diego had complications mostly due to the fact that he kept licking his wound, which ended up causing an infection, which wouldn't clear. He kept getting his cone off, and in the end had another operation. It was so sad for him, but we visited him often, and the vets and staff were very friendly & understanding. We took him in a couple of weeks ago for his vaccination and everyone who saw him recognised him and were happy to see him which was nice.

Aww sorry to hear he was soo poorly. Sorry was he vacinated before he was neutered? or is this his second jab he's had this time around.
You're quite right the combo jab is only one jab a year works out cheaper.

I know how you feel about the spay, if you are concerned the best thing to do is to ask people on here if they have any experience with the vets you go to, how good their success rate is etc. It will help put your mind at ease.
I too was really worried about getting Angel spayed (she's my furry baby!!)
I kept putting it off until I had to do it to get her to bond with Parsley, and she kept having phantom preganacies.
When she was spayed at under year old the vet found she had cysts on her ovaries, which had been causing hormone fluctuations ergo causing the phantoms.
That's also why she didn't like to be picked up. my poor baby was in pain and because she can't talk I let her suffer. ( I still feel quite gulity about that,)
So next time I had to have a bunny spayed I got her done asap.
I got willow spayed at about 4-5 months. When my vet went in she found her right ovary was 'stuck' to the womb wall and she had an underdeveloped womb.
I was so glad I got her done as soon, if I had left it god knows what would have happened.

I'm sure you'll know that spaying isn't only good to help them stay bonded, it also eliminates the risk of unterine cancer, which is very high risk. About 80% of unspayed does get it over the age of 5 years old.

All buns will react differently to being spayed, you're right it is a major op.
Studies do show though that females only take 5 days before they are healed and back to normal. Obviously it does take a while for the scar to heal properly.
Angel spent longer feeling sorry for herself than willow, I spent 2-3 days sleeping on the couch next to angels hospital pen to make sure she was ok ( I do suspect it took longer because I seperated her from Parsley and broke the bond)
When willow was spayed she spent a night snuggling on the heatpad feeling sorry for herself, then she was up the next morning begging for her dill!!!
( I do think willow recovered faster as she had parsley in with her, and he provided comfort and warmth to her)

If you need anymore advice etc you can pm me anytime If I take too long to reply to a thread!!

Give the buns noserubs from me!!!

 

[mccrayon]

Hey sorry for the delay!

Yeah Diego was vaccinated shortly after we got him, he's been in 2 or 3 times for injections now (after the 6 monthly ones etc).

Wow, those are some pretty scary stories you mentioned. There are definitely other benefits to getting Dora spayed then. Thank you for that information, it's definitely good to know. We're looking into it more seriously now. I hope all your bunnies are doing ok now?

Lately, Dora has begun squeaking, it kind of sounds like a mouse, to Diego when he tries to mount her. Sometimes even when he just comes up to her, she's squeak (almost like she's worried he's going to try it again). Sometimes she'll go for him after squeaking at him, and he'll jump back, but other times she squeaks and stays put, or runs away.
Then at other times in the day, they're completely fine with each other, cuddled up and sleeping together throughout the day!

There are an awful lot of territorial markings going on lately, and today, someone has peed twice outside of their litter box. On a (human) bed, and on the living room floor. This is very unusual as neither of them have peed outside of their litter trays (other than accidents when they're sat in it but miss it) since before they were litter trained.

Do you think all of this is linked? It's weird to hear Dora squeak like that, as they're such silent animals, it sounds like she's scared of him, and it's so sad!

Thanks again for your help

 

[Henreade]

Two male bunnies being reintroduced after one had E. cunniculi

Hi, I am new to this, so apologies if question answered elsewhere. Two unneutered male rabbits were abandoned in our yard (we are in a quiet country area) at the end of October. For want of another home, I put them into our hen run which is quite large and secure, and has our old rabbit hutch in it with a run attached, and they lived happily amongst the hens (I opened the rabbit run door enough for the rabbits to get in and out) until just before Christmas when I noticed that Barack (they arrived during US election!) was wobbly and getting thin, so vet put him on treatment for E. Cunniculi and he very nearly died, but has now recovered and is living in our playroom while he puts weight on and regrows his hair. Being warmer today I decided time to go out to join Mitt, but this was not successful - poor old Barack came off worse, and has scratches, so I have brought him back in. Is is a territorial issue? Is it that Mitt now thinks he owns the run? I could put Barack into the hutch and run and keep the door shut for a while, and Mitt can sleep in the hen house (he did while it was snowy outside) and see Barack through the wire on the rabbit run. Will they rebond? Ideally, I would like to rehome them, as we didn't plan to have rabbits again now the children have grown up, but the rescue centres are full, and no-one seems to want a rabbit. I don't want to spend time and money getting them neutered etc. We are in Northern Ireland, in case anyone wants one! Would be very grateful for any advice!

 

[tonibun]

The ssqueaking is because she wants to be mated with and of course he can't. This is also the reason for weeing outside the litter tray. I would separate them if she doesn't calm down in a day of so as this will be very stressful for both of them. Now is the time of year does become very hormonal so if you want them to be happy together you will have to have her spayed.

 

[natsusakura]

Hey sorry for the delay!

Yeah Diego was vaccinated shortly after we got him, he's been in 2 or 3 times for injections now (after the 6 monthly ones etc).

Wow, those are some pretty scary stories you mentioned. There are definitely other benefits to getting Dora spayed then. Thank you for that information, it's definitely good to know. We're looking into it more seriously now. I hope all your bunnies are doing ok now?

Lately, Dora has begun squeaking, it kind of sounds like a mouse, to Diego when he tries to mount her. Sometimes even when he just comes up to her, she's squeak (almost like she's worried he's going to try it again). Sometimes she'll go for him after squeaking at him, and he'll jump back, but other times she squeaks and stays put, or runs away.
Then at other times in the day, they're completely fine with each other, cuddled up and sleeping together throughout the day!

There are an awful lot of territorial markings going on lately, and today, someone has peed twice outside of their litter box. On a (human) bed, and on the living room floor. This is very unusual as neither of them have peed outside of their litter trays (other than accidents when they're sat in it but miss it) since before they were litter trained.

Do you think all of this is linked? It's weird to hear Dora squeak like that, as they're such silent animals, it sounds like she's scared of him, and it's so sad!

Thanks again for your help

I know its really worrying the fact that we can't tell what's going on inside till the op is getting done.
All my buns are fine now after they healed havnt had any problems and my mind is at ease as I don't have to worry about cancer.
The squeaking is her wanting to be mated, I wouldn't seperate, id just get her spayed as soon as you can, sounds as though she is more than ready. What age is she again?
:lol: the peeing on the bed has happened many times to me generally it was done after I did something and it annoyed a bunny, or they were "claiming" me if that makes sense.
I think it was dora more than likely, so getting her spayed will hopefully put an end to that!
Can we have pics of them? They sound so cute xx

 

[natsusakura]

Hi, I am new to this, so apologies if question answered elsewhere. Two unneutered male rabbits were abandoned in our yard (we are in a quiet country area) at the end of October. For want of another home, I put them into our hen run which is quite large and secure, and has our old rabbit hutch in it with a run attached, and they lived happily amongst the hens (I opened the rabbit run door enough for the rabbits to get in and out) until just before Christmas when I noticed that Barack (they arrived during US election!) was wobbly and getting thin, so vet put him on treatment for E. Cunniculi and he very nearly died, but has now recovered and is living in our playroom while he puts weight on and regrows his hair. Being warmer today I decided time to go out to join Mitt, but this was not successful - poor old Barack came off worse, and has scratches, so I have brought him back in. Is is a territorial issue? Is it that Mitt now thinks he owns the run? I could put Barack into the hutch and run and keep the door shut for a while, and Mitt can sleep in the hen house (he did while it was snowy outside) and see Barack through the wire on the rabbit run. Will they rebond? Ideally, I would like to rehome them, as we didn't plan to have rabbits again now the children have grown up, but the rescue centres are full, and no-one seems to want a rabbit. I don't want to spend time and money getting them neutered etc. We are in Northern Ireland, in case anyone wants one! Would be very grateful for any advice!

you would be better posting your own thread you'll probably get more replys that way, it can be a bit confusing to have to answer two people in the one thread.
But it does sound as though he bond is now broken since they've been separated which can happen, you'd have to re bond them again in a neutral area, but if your thinking of trying to rehome then single males actualy have a statistically better chance of being rehomed.
Also getting them vaccd and neutered will increse the chance of you being able to rehome them to people who will look after them properly, and will stop any accidental litters, perhaps you could ask if they can be advertised in the rabbits in need section?
Pm a mod and they will be able to direct you to the right person.
Mods have purple names.:wave: