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Bea's spay *update she's gone*

Thank you Babsie & Pets mum. It is, and I am still kicking myself.

The RWAF recommended vet in my area (which is actually spectacular) were not doing spays (and told us they'd be surprised if anyone was) nor taking on new clients. They were, and always would be my first choice for neuturing. I didn't know how long this would last with covid, and was concerned that if I neglected to have Bea's spay too long, she may develop uterine cancer by then. Again, trying to do right, and in the end, it ended up wrong. Easy in hindsight of course.

So, I think I did fudge up really. If I'd genuinely thought they couldn't do it, I wouldn't have took her of course. But this is definitely a lesson to be learnt from. And of trusting your instincts when it tells you somethings not right. I genuinely thought I was being overanxious, a fretter, in one mind at least, The other part of my mind was obviously trying to tell me otherwise. They nurse who took her from me was very reassuring, told me there was a small risk of course, but not to worry, they do lots of spays every week, so they do a lot of rabbits.
 
JessBun said:
I'm guessing there would be a need for anesthesia for radiographs anyway? Or is this able to be done without?

Thank you. If and when the time comes, I will make sure they will do blood work, ECG and echocardiogram for my peace of mind.



I agree, in hindsight. I've never dealt with hypothermia, it wasn't mentioned as a risk either, but that's my own fault for not being 'up on it'. We cranked up the heating (she is of course indoors), she had a snugglesafe, but in the end it wasn't long following that she suddenly passed.

I had read about EL's losing more heat through the ears, and did stress this to the vet prior. Perhaps I should have been more knowledgable on the actual risk of hypothermia though.

I was originally given an appointment to collect her at 4-5pm. When the vet rang to say she got through the op and had come round, I was sure he told me as the op took longer than usual, that I was to then collect her between 6-7pm. The same vet started calling me at 5pm trying to get me to collect then, and when I said I thought he had said x, he disagreed, I thought this was quite odd, what was the rush to collect her?

Would it be worth going somewhere with this? I'm not really out for anything in particular, but I do agree for a more specialised breed, I feel it was too quick. Perhaps for any bun it is - but I know they do send them away the same day, as standard. Do you feel the comments about 'struggling to find the uterus, hence it taking longer' is anything to be concerned about? I'm wondering if she had some sort of reproductive issue, which I know EL'S DO suffer from at least (this is why they are not common breeds) although they told me there was nothing on the uterus itself (no cysts or anthing like that). It sounds a bit odd to me (without trying to be critical) that a vet who performs many spays a week, struggles to find a uterus on a big bun.

For further info, Bea was 3KG, deemed healthy at her check up and vaccination prior. But they said they had a doe in smaller than her, and Bea's uterus was a THIRD of the size of that doe's.

Again thank you for your wealth of knowledge Jane. It helps to get other perspectives on things who aren't 'in the midst of it', I'm particularly grateful regarding the advice about testing for heart issues prior.


Edited to add: I have since read on RWAF EL lops are considered a giant breed. I have also wondered that although Bea was 6 months old, perhaps this was a bit too young for a 'giant breed' spay?
Click to expand...


I have re-read all you have posted on this thread, twice. I my UNQUALIFIED opinion I believe Bea died as a result of being discharged too soon following what is major abdominal surgery. I think her passing was due to postoperative hypothermia. Of course my opinion is just that, my opinion. We can never know for certain. But had she had a pre-existing undiagnosed heart condition I think she would have crashed under GA, not recovered only to deteriorate post operatively.

In your position I would raise this matter with the Vet, not necessarily as a complaint as such. Although you are perfectly entitled to complain. But more to highlight a potential short coming in post operative monitoring of Rabbits of ANY Breed. All small furries are at high risk of hypothermia during and after a GA, hence close monitoring of temperature and blood pressure is essential.

Hypothermia :

https://www.alfaxan.co.uk/news/the-...agement-in-sedated-and-anaesthetised-patients

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=7259242&pid=14365


I am truly sorry for your loss.
 
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Thank you Jane.

Your insight is very much appreciated, and valued. I had planned to write a letter anyway when I felt a bit more able to be more concise with my words.

As it happens, we might just be able to get this PM done after all, I'll be phoning the vets today. Human kindness is a truly incredible gift.

I will keep you all updated, if you want to know of course.


InspectorMorse said:
I have re-read all you have posted on this thread, twice. I my UNQUALIFIED opinion I believe Bea died as a result of being discharged too soon following what is major abdominal surgery. I think her passing was due to postoperative hypothermia. Of course my opinion is just that, my opinion. We can never know for certain. But had she had a pre-existing undiagnosed heart condition I think she would have crashed under GA, not recovered only to deteriorate post operatively.

In your position I would raise this matter with the Vet, not necessarily as a complaint as such. Although you are perfectly entitled to complain. But more to highlight a potential short coming in post operative monitoring of Rabbits of ANY Breed. All small furries are at high risk of hypothermia during and after a GA, hence close monitoring of temperature and blood pressure is essential.

Hypothermia :

https://www.alfaxan.co.uk/news/the-...agement-in-sedated-and-anaesthetised-patients

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=7259242&pid=14365


I am truly sorry for your loss.
Click to expand...
 
A small update.

I've contacted the vets to re-refer me for the post mortem. She was technically already refferred by the vet, because they wouldn't give me any information regarding costs until this. Unfortunately once receiving the information regarding costs, I had to make the decision we really, really couldn't afford it. As my circumstances have now changed due to the complete kindness of a really wonderful person, I'm now thankfully able to pay for it.

So, vets tried to tell me to call The Royal **** vets again to sort this out. I told them they did this last time, and that the royal **** vets have said they will not make arrangements with me, it has to be via the vet, and to get my vet to call them. So, back on the phone to my surgery reception, who have said they will pass this on to the vet, and update me.... at some point. I'll call back in a hour.

I'm really, really, REALLY beginning to hate this vetinary surgery. You would think they'd make this process a little bit easier.
 
As you are paying so much I do think you need to establish just how reliable a PM will be so long after Bea’s passing. I hope you will get some answers, but I fear that it is possible you may not. I think you need to prepare yourself for that possibility for the sake of your MH.
 
I'm sorry you lost Bea, and hope you can get some answers. We did a post mortem on a bunny as we had siblings we were concerned about, but we got no answers really (although did rule out RHD). We only paid £30 but the rabbit was tiny as was 4 weeks old. I'm shocked at that price though, but perhaps means things are sent off which wasn't the case for us.
 
InspectorMorse said:
As you are paying so much I do think you need to establish just how reliable a PM will be so long after Bea’s passing. I hope you will get some answers, but I fear that it is possible you may not. I think you need to prepare yourself for that possibility for the sake of your MH.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jane for being thoughtful to make me aware of this. This wasn't explained to me by either the Royal D Vets caryying out the PM, or my local vetinary surgery, unfortunately... but I suppose I do understand that like with anything, a cause of death can come back 'unexplained'. I will at least be at peace in the knowledge I have done everything I can for her, to find her answers, and for her to be returned to me. There is no more I can do for Bea now, than this, so I actually feel good that everything possible is being done for her, albeit after her passing.

She has been in cold storage though, so I'm hoping that will help.

It turns out this the full cost includes private cremation and return of her ashes also (we are not allowed to have her body returned to us after PM, she must be cremated whether privately or not), which wasn't told to me originally. That's a positive note though, as we were worried about the costs of this on top. I feel a lot better knowing this is all sorted now.

She is now scheduled for her PM tomorrow Morning. After some telling off from the Royal D vets, to my local vetinary surgery. The Royal D vets was quite annoyed at my vets for having me call back and forth at a delicate time and told me she 'would sort them', and it seems she did :lol:
 
Liz47 said:
I'm sorry you lost Bea, and hope you can get some answers. We did a post mortem on a bunny as we had siblings we were concerned about, but we got no answers really (although did rule out RHD). We only paid £30 but the rabbit was tiny as was 4 weeks old. I'm shocked at that price though, but perhaps means things are sent off which wasn't the case for us.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I imagine this was a very basic PM, and your actual vet performed it? £30 is incredibly low cost.

Yes it is a high price. Royal D vets are reknowned for their services in fairness, and especially their Rabbit Clinic. So, our general experience has been (with other specialist pets registered there) that their basic prices are just higher, which is fair, for their expertise. They are what I would class as premium cost, for everything.

There was no option for our 'current' vets (who spayed Bea) to do a post-mortem, at all. Which I'm quite glad about as I would like an independant opinion. However I've no idea if this is usual, for vets not to do or offer to do their own PM's. From the very start it was told to me that post mortems had to be referred there. I did find it strange, but perhaps it's the norm.

It includes the proper transport of Bea's Body to the pathology dept., basic post mortem, and if they have to 'go further' (which I suspect so long after death they may well do) then the higher price for extra tests for this. I forget now what those tests were called, but I believe they're sent off to a lab, which I would imagine also needs paid. Then the collection of Bea's body from pathology to be cremated, and then returned to us. We weren't however, told it included this by our current vets, so it's been a shambles to be honest. The Royal D vets did tell me in the latest phone call that the prices have to come from my current vets, as they will add on their own extra charge!! Unfortunately it's strictly referral based from our vets, so they still cash in on it, it would seem.

Never had this process done before, so it's deep learning curve. I'm glad the organising is over, it's been incredibly stressful.

ETA- I wonder if the higher cost is also because Bea is classed technically as a 'giant rabbit' although not what I'd considered big, she was big at just over 3kg.
 
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It's good things are sorted for you now, and you will also get ashes back afterwards. Yeah the Royal D prices will be well worth it hopefully, referral prices are higher which I didn't take into account. The post mortem was done at our regular vets, I recently read the paperwork for what vets have to have in place for post mortems and it's quite strict so perhaps why your regular vets don't offer them. I hope you can get some rest now the organising side of it is all done
 
Liz47 said:
It's good things are sorted for you now, and you will also get ashes back afterwards. Yeah the Royal D prices will be well worth it hopefully, referral prices are higher which I didn't take into account. The post mortem was done at our regular vets, I recently read the paperwork for what vets have to have in place for post mortems and it's quite strict so perhaps why your regular vets don't offer them. I hope you can get some rest now the organising side of it is all done
Click to expand...

She had originally told me I didn't need to choose what container her ashes are returned in, until tomorrow. Q panicky phone call back from recepionist while paperwork was being flled in, that actually, I need to decide by 5.30pm today. So I imagine the paperwork is quite something.

V unorganised, but they've at least admitted they don't really do many of these. I can see why. If the price isnt out of many peoples reach then the lack of knowledge on the process by the surgery themselves would put a lot of grieving folk off!

I've opted for a simple scatter box. I have seen an urn I'd like to get for her at a later date. It's still very hard, but I'm out of the shock phase now, which means I'm a bit more back to my usual self. Having the hope of answers, and her body being respectfully returned to us, has brought great relief.
 
Thinking of you today as I am sure knowing the PM is taking place will be hard for you, even though what is being worked on is not Bea any more. She now ‘lives’ within your heart. Nothing will change that, not ever.
 
You are in my thoughts today and I do hope you are able to get some answers about your beloved Bea. X
 
Thank you all for your lovely words and having me in your thoughts :love:

I had a phone call about an hour ago. Fully expecting either results or asked again to give the go ahead to go 'deeper' into the PM.

No, it was the vets asking to confirm the cremation again and that I wanted her back in a scatter box (which had been booked and paid for, yesterday). I'm not sure if that's usual, in case a person changes their mind, but I would have thought they would know by now I'm quite able to get in touch when I need to/have changed my mind as it were.

I asked about Bea. she is being transferred to The Royal D vets @ 2.30pm. When I asked why, as I was told she was going first thing in the morning, she told me she didn't know and to phone the pathology dept. I said no, you've done this twice to me now, and every time the pathology dept. tell me they won't discuss with me and it needs to come from 'my' vet. :roll: So she went to 'find out' from their vets. Their response was, That was just the time the Royal D Vets arranged it, and I got no answers as to why the misinformation about her going this morning. They can't tell me when the PM will be done, just in the next 24 hours, as they will have to 'warm her body back up'. I thought they needed to be stored cold?

I'm so so fed up of this bloody vets. They're making a difficult time, more difficult, with their misinformation or just complete lack of information on some things. I will be issuing a complain on their handling of this, at the very least. I'm exhausted with them. Sooner I no longer have to deal with them, the better. I am still looking forward to possible answers about Bea, and having her ashes back. Xxx
 
Wow, these vets just sound terrible. No wonder you're so fed up and exhausted with them. I'm really sorry they're being so awful and difficult about all of this, especially when it's about such an emotional and painful thing as a PM on a beloved bunny. I hope the next call you get is about the actual results of the PM.
 
This is unbelievable behaviour, I've known some not great practices but this just seems like the entire staff are incompetent! I would definitely be considering writing to the RCVS if and when you feel up to it, this is just a terrible way to be treated especially at a time like this. Do they have no compassion at all??!!
 
Thank you both. xx

I will write to them first, and if no joy will definitely be looking to write to the RCVS. The hard thing is, for the most part they have been polite, and offered their condoloscences (sp!) when I have spoke with them, but yes this is incompetence through and through. They have admitted they don't do this often (refer for PM's) but regardless, it is really their job to be trained up on this. And the vets are supposed to know the process for referring for a PM. It does make me wonder what other imcompetencies they also have eh..

But, I'm not blaming them for Bea's death, I can't even have a clue on that till PM results come back.

At this point though, I am going to name them, and it's Vets4Pets. I know each branch is run/owned differently, I've no idea if I'm allowed to name the branch, but if anybody in my area is concerned, you are welcome to PM me and I will have no qualms naming them via private message.

I have M.E which causes brain fog, confusion, memory problems (among other issues) and the back and forth and constantly different information is not easy to understand/make any sense of.

I am not letting them get me too down though. I have hope, at least. And I'm also going to go for a much needed rest. Thanks again everyone your support really means the world at the moment xx
 
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