Bea's spay *update she's gone*

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

I'm so sorry you've lost Bea I think it's especially cruel to lose a bun following a spay/neuter as the whole reason we put them through the procedure is for their long term future health. It's almost like being punished for doing the right thing.

Understandably you're in the very raw early stages of grief, where guilt and self reproach are sadly very common. This stage will pass and I hope you will see that you have nothing to reproach yourself for. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you did everything right as an owner. All you can do is trust a vet when they give you the reassurance that they have the skills and experience to carry out a procedure. Sadly, I suspect, as others have said, that Bea may have had an underlying condition which nobody could have known about until it was too late.

Lots of hugs for you. Grieve for Bea, but please be kind to yourself

 

[InspectorMorse]

The squealing often occurs as a Bunny passes, it is not always due to pain, but to the neurological pathways in the brain closing down. The Rabbit may appear to have a fit too. It is horrific to witness BUT the Rabbit is almost certainly oblivious to what is happening.

For me I never ‘got over’ losing the Rabbit, but I have come to accept that she was a sad rare bad outcome. Having cared for a 4 year old X Breeding Doe who had metastatic Uterine Adenocarcinoma I would still say that a spay is the lesser of two potential evils. Death from UAC is awful.

Also, there is the psychological impact on the Doe by keeping her entire if she is not going to be allowed to breed. I am not being anthropomorphic, an entire Doe will suffer psychologically as her body will keep telling her she needs to mate. Then the behavioural problems can start, territorial aggression, pseudopregnancies etc.

I completely understand what you are saying about questioning if spaying is always the way to go. I said exactly that myself. But looking at it from a purely statistical POV the health and welfare benefits of spaying by far out weigh the risks.

Not that any of this can be of any comfort to you at the moment, I know

 

[JessBun]

The squealing often occurs as a Bunny passes, it is not always due to pain, but to the neurological pathways in the brain closing down. The Rabbit may appear to have a fit too. It is horrific to witness BUT the Rabbit is almost certainly oblivious to what is happening.

For me I never ‘got over’ losing the Rabbit, but I have come to accept that she was a sad rare bad outcome. Having cared for a 4 year old X Breeding Doe who had metastatic Uterine Adenocarcinoma I would still say that a spay is the lesser of two potential evils. Death from UAC is awful.

Also, there is the psychological impact on the Doe by keeping her entire if she is not going to be allowed to breed. I am not being anthropomorphic, an entire Doe will suffer psychologically as her body will keep telling her she needs to mate. Then the behavioural problems can start, territorial aggression, pseudopregnancies etc.

I completely understand what you are saying about questioning if spaying is always the way to go. I said exactly that myself. But looking at it from a purely statistical POV the health and welfare benefits of spaying by far out weigh the risks.

Not that any of this can be of any comfort to you at the moment, I know

On having now spoken with the vet, she has said from what I described she thinks it was her heart that gave up, or DVT I think she said. So you may be right. I am still concerned and would like to rule GI stasis. If it was indeed an underlying heart issue, I think I will feel slightly better though it doesn't bring her back.

They have reffered me to another vet for post mortem. I have to ask them the cost of this. I hope it's affordable for us, but I really doubt it just now, we would be leaving ourselves without food bill to pay for it. I really need answers, so please cross your fingers this is do-able for us.

I appreciate what you're saying Jane regarding spaying, but my bunny wasn't a statistic. She was a living being who had the right to live past 6 months of age. Death is not better than 'living alone' which although she's didn't actually have a companion with her, she did have one to interact with (behind mesh to seperate them of course) and was a house bun so interacted with an awful lot. She also enjoyed training and agility, although she was perhaps not very good at it. She was very happy, and although she could have been happier with a companion (which is why I had this done, along with reducing the risks of uterine cancer) she was certainly not in any way unhappy that death at 6 months of age was a better option.

Again, I know this isn't what you're saying. But it's how I feel, and I have a right to feel this way about the spay. It's pushed so heavily on us as owners, we're not doing the right thing by not spaying, it's almost emotional guilt trip. I know I'll be in the minority, but it's not always the right thing, for every owner, and every bun, if this is the risk of outcome. What we witnessed was horrific.

 

[JessBun]

Rabbit didn't fit as she passed (thankfully for us, I'm not sure what's best for bun). She moved around quite some distance, an all four feet, squealing, before stretching out her back feet, gasping and then passed. Just like that. We didn't have time to do anything. I thought the quietness and not moving around was normal, at least for the day of the OP. Now I'm thinking perhaps we should have recognised something to get an emergency vet out (which we could do as insurance covers this anyway). There was no signs I thought was abnormal for a spay, but obviously was concerned enough to post here. Perhaps I should have contacted the vet instead.

On speaking to the vet though, she said it was perfectly normal for them to be quiet, not moving much, and not eating on the day of the spay, and that the poohing was a good sign even if she wasn't eating yet. So maybe they wouldn't have thought it an emergency either. It's so, so effin hard.

 

[Omi]

I am very sorry that you lost Bea It's really tragic and difficult to process when it happens in such circumstances.

I completely understand how you are now wondering about to spay or not to spay. What I would say is that you are feeling guilt now for putting her through an operation, which both physically and emotionally was absolutely in her best interests. I would very likely be feeling something similar in your shoes. However, I know for a fact that if, knowing the risks of Uterine Adenocarcinoma in unspayed does, I decided against having my rabbit spayed and she then died of the disease, I really would find it difficult to live with myself. I get that Bea wasn't a statistic, but when trying to make rational and sensible decisions, sometimes we need to bear statistics in mind.

It does sound very likely that there was an underlying problem with Bea. It is usual in my experience for does to be very lethargic and not eating for several hours after a spay.

 

[JessBun]

Thank you Omi.

We blame ourselves whatever we do, or don't do. However the fact is Bea was a healthy, lively bun just that morning. Regardless of when uterine cancer, or an underlying condition may have taken her, it's clear this was brought on by the spay, and she would have had more time, good time at that, if she hadn't gone in.

Whatever decision I ever make in future, I will never again feel bad about, not defend, because it goes to pot either way doesn't it.

Yes, I'm not myself and struggling very hard. I know it will pass with time. X

 

[JessBun]

Just an update. The post-mortem cost has it seemed, significantly increased from the price I (and the vets!) remember of £150, and I was quoted today £250-£400 at the Royal **** Vets. Unfortunately this is in no way do-able (insurance will not pay out for a post-mortem), and they will not offer a payment plan or payment in a couple of weeks either, so we'll never get our answers. Nor will it bring her back anyway.

I wish it had not taken nearly 6 hours of phone calls between myself, my vet practice, and the Royal **** Vets to receive this information, or information that even though Bea died at home, the practice will cold-store her until we're able to make a decision regarding her burial/cremation. I have a terrible stress migraine and really could have done without 6 hours of this to get some information and advice from the practice.

Thanks again for being there. I really don't feel myself. Bea is finally back at the practice, and I feel able to maybe have a lie down/rest.

 

[bunny momma]

Rabbit didn't fit as she passed (thankfully for us, I'm not sure what's best for bun). She moved around quite some distance, an all four feet, squealing, before stretching out her back feet, gasping and then passed. Just like that. We didn't have time to do anything. I thought the quietness and not moving around was normal, at least for the day of the OP. Now I'm thinking perhaps we should have recognised something to get an emergency vet out (which we could do as insurance covers this anyway). There was no signs I thought was abnormal for a spay, but obviously was concerned enough to post here. Perhaps I should have contacted the vet instead.

On speaking to the vet though, she said it was perfectly normal for them to be quiet, not moving much, and not eating on the day of the spay, and that the poohing was a good sign even if she wasn't eating yet. So maybe they wouldn't have thought it an emergency either. It's so, so effin hard.

***Disturbing content****

The quietness is normal. When my girl pooed, I took it as a good sign. She also needed supplemental heat and did not eat tight away. You did the same or more than I , yet you had a horrid outcome and I did not. It is so unfair you lost Bea.

I understand if you would choose not to spay in the future, or delay spay until you are comfortable with the procedure.
The stretching/gasping as they pass is not specific to stasis. It is disturbing to see.

Sending hugs.

 

[Barn Yard Bunnies]

Omg I am so so sorry. I want to give you a big hug and cry with you.

I've only had one female spayed the rest were already spayed by the rescue and I never had my first girl done because I didn't know you had to.

Again big big big hugs xxx

 

[JessBun]

Thank you both for your kind and reassuring words. I do appreciate you being here with me.

Things are very quiet without my bolshy, cheeky monkey around. It's been a solemn day for us both. We keep switching between this was horrific and should never have happened, to blaming ourselves. We are definitely still in the shock stage of grief.

I don't know why I did it to myself, getting another bun. I have fretted about losing her since the day I got her. Don't get me wrong, I love my Oscar, he's a lovely sweet bun. But I seem to get a special attachment to does. I find they have extra bolshy quirky character. Which of course, makes the consideration/prospect of getting another (as a friend for Oscar), all the more hard.

I realise we don't have to make decisions just now. Oscar is young and awaiting his castration (he was a rescue, but came with a voucher for his castration). I don't know how I'm going to do it. I guess, as awful as it sounds, my bond with him is not yet as strong as it was with Bea (although I am sure it will be at some point) so perhaps it's best to just get it out of the way before the bond gets stronger. Also I figure whilst there's still risk, it's a bit of an easier op on bucks than it is on does.

I am heartbroken, and haven't been able to do anything useful today other than phone calls. I hope I feel a bit better tomorrow. My eyes keep threatening to burst into tears again.

I really, really wish I didn't love buns so much. So that either I didn't feel the need to have them around, or so it's not so hard when you lose them.

 

[Graciee]

Oh I'm so sorry

I lost a bun 2 months after her spay, she had so many complications after the op and had issues caused by the op. She was really special too. I thought I'd never get a female bun again, or only get one that was already spayed etc.. But ended up rescuing two female sisters, who needed spaying.. I felt just like you in the moment though it's so awful, we all try our best for our animals and sometimes things just happened regardless

Sending you so many hugs xx

 

[Barn Yard Bunnies]

Thank you both for your kind and reassuring words. I do appreciate you being here with me.

Things are very quiet without my bolshy, cheeky monkey around. It's been a solemn day for us both. We keep switching between this was horrific and should never have happened, to blaming ourselves. We are definitely still in the shock stage of grief.

I don't know why I did it to myself, getting another bun. I have fretted about losing her since the day I got her. Don't get me wrong, I love my Oscar, he's a lovely sweet bun. But I seem to get a special attachment to does. I find they have extra bolshy quirky character. Which of course, makes the consideration/prospect of getting another (as a friend for Oscar), all the more hard.

I realise we don't have to make decisions just now. Oscar is young and awaiting his castration (he was a rescue, but came with a voucher for his castration). I don't know how I'm going to do it. I guess, as awful as it sounds, my bond with him is not yet as strong as it was with Bea (although I am sure it will be at some point) so perhaps it's best to just get it out of the way before the bond gets stronger. Also I figure whilst there's still risk, it's a bit of an easier op on bucks than it is on does.

I am heartbroken, and haven't been able to do anything useful today other than phone calls. I hope I feel a bit better tomorrow. My eyes keep threatening to burst into tears again.

I really, really wish I didn't love buns so much. So that either I didn't feel the need to have them around, or so it's not so hard when you lose them.

Be kind to yourself, you need to grieve. Xxx

 

[Orenoko]

Hi Jessbun, I'm so sorry this has happened to you and to your beautiful girl. I was just about to respond to your post about your vet when I saw this thread.

I won't go into details but I had some bad experiences with Vets4pets myself and moved to a different vet. I may be wrong but it sounds like they could have discharged her too soon? Any time my buns have needed a GA my vet won't discharge until they've seen them eating and hopefully passing poo (although that can take a bit longer). I don't know, to me it sounds like the aftercare isn't what it could have been. Maybe it wouldn't have changed the outcome and if I'm honest I didn't argue with them when I had my own issues with them because it was all too much, so appreciate if you don't want to do the same, particularly when things are still so raw.

I don't know if you have any rabbit savvy vets in your area but it may be worth checking that out for Oscar's castration when the time comes. Appreciate you have a voucher for that specific vet but I'd want much better "service" in general from them.

Sending hugs to you and to little Oscar. Please don't beat yourself up, you were trying to do the right thing to give Bea and Oscar the best.

 

[Walli]

I´m so sorry for your loss I have also lost a doe after a spay and it is horrible We also blamed ourselves and still do 4 years later I know it was the right thing to do and I know we shouldn´t blame ourselves but I can´t help but feel that if I hadn´t taken her to the vet that morning she would have had a happy life for a couple of years at least. Now she just lived for 8 months
Lots of hugs for you!

 

[JessBun]

Thank you all so much, for your kindness and support. And also thank you for sharing your experiences, though I'm very sorry for those of you who have had other bad experiences, it does help a little to read I'm not alone in this experience.

Thinking a little clearer now though not 100% back to myself of course.

On reflection, and talking to my partner about this, I think sometimes we should listen to our gut. Bea was a very healthy bun (on the surface of it, of course underlying issues could have been there that lead to this) but I had this horrible feeling about it before I even booked her in, or even enquired anywhere about it. I was completely convinced something was going to go wrong, and prior to her surgery had this awful nightmare of something going wrong once she came home from her spay, not actually in surgery (graphic so I won't share details). Never had this feeling before.

With Oscar, whom I do love very dearly, I don't have this feeling. I'm absolutely convinced he's going to come out of it well and be fine.

Of course not trying to say I have psychic abilities at all, just that sometimes I think it may be possible for humans to get extremely strong gut feelings which may not be all that silly, and although we don't know why. I just put it down to anxiety at the time, I do have bad anxiety but not usually that bad, I was physically shaking handing her over.

 

[JessBun]

@Jane (if you see this).

Now I'm thinking clearer it definitely wasn't DVT (what a daftie) the vet mentioned, she definitely mentioned the heart, and I think it was pulmonary something - would an embolism sound right? In any case it does sound you're correct.

She said from what I had described, it could have been either of those things. Her left side of tummy did feel very very hard shortly before she passed also. The poohs were very dark, formed, but soft/easily smushed. But I would expect this and take any poohs (unless diarrhoea) a good sign so soon after surgery. A PM would have been so helpful, and we badly wanted to do it, I think up to £400 of the mark is tough for most people to be able to do though sadly.

So my specific question is, regarding EL having a particular vulnerability to congenital heart problems, are you aware of any tests I could request before undergoing surgery, to check for this? And could I expect an excellent rabbit savvy vet to keep 'risky' buns in overnight (of course they'll charge for it) following a spay?

My mental health definitely slipped into previously unknown territory with this, I've not quite experienced it before. As mentioned I'm not 100% but am thinking a little clearer thankfully. I don't do very well with nasty shocks anymore due to my PTSD, and I think the shock of this just triggered something. I love having buns around so dearly, but losing them is effin gut wrenching, as many of you here have shared your struggles with your losses. x

 

[Pets mum]

Oh JessBun I'm so so sorry, I've only just caught your thread, I'm absolutely devastated for you. Such a dreadful shock for you, there are just no words adequate, am sending a big virtual hug for you xxx

 

[InspectorMorse]

@Jane (if you see this).

Now I'm thinking clearer it definitely wasn't DVT (what a daftie) the vet mentioned, she definitely mentioned the heart, and I think it was pulmonary something - would an embolism sound right? In any case it does sound you're correct.

She said from what I had described, it could have been either of those things. Her left side of tummy did feel very very hard shortly before she passed also. The poohs were very dark, formed, but soft/easily smushed. But I would expect this and take any poohs (unless diarrhoea) a good sign so soon after surgery. A PM would have been so helpful, and we badly wanted to do it, I think up to £400 of the mark is tough for most people to be able to do though sadly.

So my specific question is, regarding EL having a particular vulnerability to congenital heart problems, are you aware of any tests I could request before undergoing surgery, to check for this? And could I expect an excellent rabbit savvy vet to keep 'risky' buns in overnight (of course they'll charge for it) following a spay?

My mental health definitely slipped into previously unknown territory with this, I've not quite experienced it before. As mentioned I'm not 100% but am thinking a little clearer thankfully. I don't do very well with nasty shocks anymore due to my PTSD, and I think the shock of this just triggered something. I love having buns around so dearly, but losing them is effin gut wrenching, as many of you here have shared your struggles with your losses. x

The Vet probably mentioned a pulmonary embolism as a possible cause. Basically a blood clot from the surgical site travels to the pulmonary artery of the lungs.

Blood tests and chest radiogrphs prior to surgery may pick up on some types of heart problems, but additional diagnostics would probably be needed too - ECG and echocardiogram.

From what information you posted I personally believe Bea was discharged far too soon and I dont think her post operative clinical observations were very thorough. She sounded to be very hypothermic, that alone should have set alarm bells ringing if the Vet had noticed.

 

[JessBun]

The Vet probably mentioned a pulmonary embolism as a possible cause. Basically a blood clot from the surgical sight travels to the one of the pulmonary arteries of the lungs.

Blood tests and chest radiogrphs prior to surgery may pick up on some types of heart problems, but additional diagnostics would probably be needed too - ECG and echocardiogram.

I'm guessing there would be a need for anesthesia for radiographs anyway? Or is this able to be done without?

Thank you. If and when the time comes, I will make sure they will do blood work, ECG and echocardiogram for my peace of mind.

From what information you posted I personally believe Bea was discharged far too soon and I dont think her post operative clinical observations were very thorough. She sounded to be very hypothermic, that alone should have set alarm bells ringing if the Vet had noticed.

I agree, in hindsight. I've never dealt with hypothermia, it wasn't mentioned as a risk either, but that's my own fault for not being 'up on it'. We cranked up the heating (she is of course indoors), she had a snugglesafe, but in the end it wasn't long following that she suddenly passed.

I had read about EL's losing more heat through the ears, and did stress this to the vet prior. Perhaps I should have been more knowledgable on the actual risk of hypothermia though.

I was originally given an appointment to collect her at 4-5pm. When the vet rang to say she got through the op and had come round, I was sure he told me as the op took longer than usual, that I was to then collect her between 6-7pm. The same vet started calling me at 5pm trying to get me to collect then, and when I said I thought he had said x, he disagreed, I thought this was quite odd, what was the rush to collect her?

Would it be worth going somewhere with this? I'm not really out for anything in particular, but I do agree for a more specialised breed, I feel it was too quick. Perhaps for any bun it is - but I know they do send them away the same day, as standard. Do you feel the comments about 'struggling to find the uterus, hence it taking longer' is anything to be concerned about? I'm wondering if she had some sort of reproductive issue, which I know EL'S DO suffer from at least (this is why they are not common breeds) although they told me there was nothing on the uterus itself (no cysts or anthing like that). It sounds a bit odd to me (without trying to be critical) that a vet who performs many spays a week, struggles to find a uterus on a big bun.

For further info, Bea was 3KG, deemed healthy at her check up and vaccination prior. But they said they had a doe in smaller than her, and Bea's uterus was a THIRD of the size of that doe's.

Again thank you for your wealth of knowledge Jane. It helps to get other perspectives on things who aren't 'in the midst of it', I'm particularly grateful regarding the advice about testing for heart issues prior.


Edited to add: I have since read on RWAF EL lops are considered a giant breed. I have also wondered that although Bea was 6 months old, perhaps this was a bit too young for a 'giant breed' spay?

 

[Babsie]

I have only just seen this thread. I'm so sorry JessBun - just devastating.