Advice on outdoor living for an indoor rabbit at this time of year...

[Freakinfreak]

Hello again RU,

Following on from this thread: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?416193-Arghh-feeling-so-miserable

I am speaking with my Mum later today about the options of Neo moving outside if I go back home.
I have some concerns, some questions and some ramblings... I would really appreciate some opinions, suggestions and photos of examples if you can.
I have put in bold the most important things, and will help if you can't be bothered to read into the rest of the below essay :lol:

I think I have until the end of March before I move back home, as I have paid for March to live in this house and at least I can hopefully put up with being here another month and the temperature should have risen at the start of April (hopefully?!) if it turns out that the family members renting us the house can stop being so ridiculously controlling and demanding, this may all end up being unnecessary, but we shall see - I like to gather info first!

The hutch I have is a Poppy Den from P@H - I have recently painted the entire inside and outside with Cuprinol Garden Shades which I hope will make it more waterproof. The other option is look at waterproofing with a cover somehow?

Anyway...
One suggestion with him being outside would be to have his hutch alongside their 6ft long shed, which also has the fence running the opposite way. The hutch would be inside an L shape of protection from the wind. My main concern here is preventing the inside getting wet from rain running diagonally into the hutch front!
My vision is running a large tube from one of the narrow ends, to a run that will hopefully be about 6ft x 4ft x 4ft minimum height. The issue with this is that it will take up multiple spaces in the garden rather than being confined to one large section. I want him to be able to binky around and he currently loves to stretch up 2/3 of the height of the playpen (91cm), and have things to jump onto so height for him is needed. If his hutch was bigger (currently 4ft x 2ft x 2ft) I wouldn't be so concerned about having access to another run, but why should he settle for less?!

The other option is trying to convince them to allow me to buy something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEVILLE-L...t=UK_Pet_Supplies_Poultry&hash=item27d7595dc3

This allows me to get in there easily with him, and the size of it means it would be confined to one area, almost as an extension of the shed, rather than taking up more than one section of the garden as the other option would. It also allows room for another bunny which brings me to my next point...

My Dad is an electrician and we therefore have power outside in the garden.
He has been quite sweet and understanding of the temperature problem, after I explained that Neo has always been an indoor rabbit and his fur is very thin at the moment.
He suggested perhaps getting a heat mat or similar and putting a mesh cage over the top so he can sit on that - not very comfy I know! But at least he can't chew it.
My other thought was getting him a spayed female and getting them bonded. Not only is there more socialisation, temperature will also improve if they are able to huddle for warmth. I could possibly also get a tubular heater to come on for the whole day at a low temperature (thermostat?) and so if they needed some more warmth they could run up into the sleeping quarters. This was also a thought about solving the issues of him being lonely out there. He has gone from indoor rabbit with the first family with 6 family members, living in their front room, to indoor rabbit with me not working so being around and chatting to him all day and then with the boyfriend on weekends and evenings.

With Neo being a lionhead, I have been told that straw isn't the greatest idea for when his beard and skirt grow back out (due to being housed on straw before the adoption centre had to essentially shave him as he couldn't move his head very well due to matting) which is obviously what most people use for bunnies having warmth. Ideas?

The other benefit to having something like the link is that when/if I do end up moving elsewhere where I REALLY couldn't have the rabbit(s) inside, this would be a good all-in-one solution.

I am quite set on going back home because if it isn't the boyfriend's family moaning about the rabbit, they will probably moan about something else (this has been a trend from as soon as we have moved in). I don't want my anxiety and depression to come back... I'm not sure if I will still feel the same if they drop the rabbit 'issue' and sorting this all out now means that I at least still have a solution if and when they sell this house we are renting.

I'm sorry for the essay but I'd like to hear your views on all of the separate issues.
To save from loads of scrolling if you do reply, please delete this quoted text in your reply otherwise I'll be sat on my phone for half an hour scrolling past this being repeated in replies :lol:

 

[tulsi]

I would say that an aivery style run (say 10 x 6) with a decent roof and a hutch inside it would be easier to access. A shed with an attached run would be awesome but your parents may not agree.

I 100% agree that a spayed doe from a rescue would be great for him. Company for rabbits is as important as food.

I am sure you could get sturdier hutches for that kind of money. Also runs are fairly easy to make with rolls of weldmesh (19 guage being good and strong) being sold on amazon and timber easy enough to buy precut in b and q. You can buy tin snips to cut the mesh and those u shaped nails to fix it to the timber then you could buy a posh hutch and make a run to go round it.

I hope you find a good solution. Look at the outdoor sticky for inspiration.

 

[yaretzi]

The coop you linked is unfortunately too small. The run part is 7 x 3 ft which is fine, but the sheltered hutch part is only 3 by about 3.5 foot. You'd be spending that money only to be giving him effectively no extra sheltered space, and sheltered space is very important for an outdoor rabbit. If it's absolutely hammering down or snowing, he's going to want a decent size sheltered area to hide in if he wants, where he can stretch his legs and then go back to sleep.

I'm sure this seller (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350758325427?_trksid=p2055120.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT) would be able to make the run at a 3ft height instead of 2ft, which would allow Neo to binky around hopefully, and for you to add tables/hides etc for him to jump on. The combination of hutch/run like that gives a small footprint to appease the parents but it meets the RWAF requirements of an adequate sheltered area with a decent exercise area. Additionally, if you have room on the patio you can place it on a patio for complete security. I wish I could have a 3ft high run, I feel like it'd make them feel much more free. The other problem with the chicken coop style setup is whilst you have the height, you don't actually have much floor space so you can't add much in the way of tables etc as it's so narrow. After a while your parents may allow an additional run to give extra space, you never know.

In regards to the hutch & separate run setup, you can always staple puppy panels to the bottom of the run to ensure he can't dig out and nothing can dig in. You don't need quite so small mesh on the bottom to prevent digging, since the average predator won't be able to lift the run up. I'm not sure if that's any help to you. If you went for that idea, welfare hutches and runs do lovely 3ft high runs: http://www.welfarehutches.co.uk/3ft_high_runs/cat1466126_1727923.aspx, and you can get 6 x 2 x 2 hutchs fairly cheaply: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6ftX2fX2f...et_Supplies_Small_Animals&hash=item519f5e2eb8.

I'm not too sure about when would be okay to put Neo outside, as I've not had much experience with it. Snugglesafes would be good. I'd be worried about a heat mat in a 4ft hutch as there isn't much space for him to get away from the heat if he wants to. Tubular heaters sound good on the walls though, just to keep the ambient temperature up a little. I think bonding him with a spayed female would be ideal - they'd have each other for warmth and company, and you wouldn't have to feel bad if you were unable to see him much that day or if it's really cold. N&T used to be indoor rabbits but they absolutely LOVE being outside! I'm with you on that though - I couldn't put a single rabbit outdoors if they'd been used to human company most of the time. I'd definitely have to get them a friend. Then it doesn't seem so much like you're shoving him outside, it's more like you're giving him an alternate (but just as good) lifestyle.

How would your parents feel about something like this? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TANALISED...tchen_Steamers_Cookers_PP&hash=item35c52406f4 Possibly at 6 x 4 instead of 8 x 4 if they really didn't want something a little bigger? It's 'only' 4ft tall so not too much of an eyesore but allows you to get in with him, and gives him (and potential future partner) plenty of space but it's lovely and sheltered. Also doesn't cost too much. The only thing is you'd wanna get smaller mesh but the seller should be able to do that. I understand if they won't allow it though, it's a difficult situation.

I moved back in with my parents with the bunnies 3 years ago and it is difficult, but the worst part is negotiating on the accommodation. It's been a lot easier ever since. I ended up getting a 6 x 4 shed but which has a pent roof, so it doesn't 'look so big'. I've then got a runaround setup to a 6 x 4 x 2 run (they would allow no bigger for the shed or run, sadly) which I move all over the grass so the grass doesn't get ruined. 2 runaround tubes connected are really flexible and long, so I can move it every 2-3 days to fresh areas of grass so it doesn't negatively affect the grass at all. I dunno if it helps at all but here's a pic of the summer setup so you can see how bendy 2 tubes are and how the grass is fine 3 years on:



It would pretty much bend back on itself if I wanted it to. It's been great!

N&T took to outdoor living really well. I moved them in about June so that really helped, but they absolutely love the extra space and the interesting sights/smells of outdoors! I do wish I could have them inside just because in the winter it's pretty rubbish with the early nights and cold weather, but that's only about 4 months of the year. The rest of the time it's great - the mess is all outside!

 

[Freakinfreak]

I would say that an aivery style run (say 10 x 6) with a decent roof and a hutch inside it would be easier to access. A shed with an attached run would be awesome but your parents may not agree.

I 100% agree that a spayed doe from a rescue would be great for him. Company for rabbits is as important as food.

I am sure you could get sturdier hutches for that kind of money. Also runs are fairly easy to make with rolls of weldmesh (19 guage being good and strong) being sold on amazon and timber easy enough to buy precut in b and q. You can buy tin snips to cut the mesh and those u shaped nails to fix it to the timber then you could buy a posh hutch and make a run to go round it.

I hope you find a good solution. Look at the outdoor sticky for inspiration.

Hi Tulsi :wave:

Thank you for answering another of my threads Hope you're having a good weekend!
I'm really, really hoping that another rabbit is an idea they can live with, this would make me much happier knowing that if he is going to have to be outside, at least he has some company. Two is no more hassle than one, especially if they work well together and we can find a female as chilled as Neo is now. They also don't take up any more room or work (hilariously Neo is flopped and squashed in his litter tray - lots of room my ****! :lol.
I worry my parents won't see it that way, however I will probably show them this thread. I don't think non-rabbit people quite understand that pairs, trios and quads are much more 'natural' and that rabbits are very social. I still think people see them as lower than cats and dogs, even though they are more intelligent than cats, and can be as friendly and trained like dogs!

I would LOVE an aivary style set up, I'm thinking that it may be an idea to have the hutch inside the aivary, and the aivary panels could maybe be drilled into the shed? Not sure they'd be happy about this though.
I want to compromise so that yes, he's outside, but ideally two things need to happen for him to be as happy and comfortable as possible - get him a wifebun and give him enough space, like he does indoors. Inside he currently has his 4x2x2ft hutch with a playpen of about 6ftx6ftx91cm attached with 24/7 access.

The idea of making a run is a great suggestions. I've also looked at panels on eBay that aren't too expensive. I think it's just about working out the best thing for everyone - with compromise from both sides if possible!

 

[Freakinfreak]

Not quoting text as I'm going to waste so much time scrolling, so I've replied in the same order but without the quote

After looking at it properly, I totally agree that it's too small! I think it looks a lot roomier than it is, and the lay out was what didn't look too bad to me until I looked again... properly :roll:

The layout of our garden is so the shed is next to the patio at the end of the garden, but I don't think they'd be too happy with the patio being overtaken by a run. We used to have a wendy house before the extension which was on concrete slabs - maybe getting some of those slabs so it's half permanent but moveable would be a good idea for resting the run/hutch onto them if they're wanting the rabbit houses in a different part of the garden. Of course I'd pay for re-turfing afterwards.

I really like the Skyes hutch/run combo, and would probably see if they could build me a custom one to have the run a bit taller as you suggest. My only worry is access, and I couldn't sit in with them like a walk-in hutch, but I suppose this is a bit of a compromise. The other problem that seems to present itself is that it seems impossible to reach the back of the run

I appreciate the picture, it's sort of what I'd imagine happening if I had to have the hutch and run separate but still accessible 24/7. I looked at the 12ft tubing and would probably go for that length so if needing to cut it up, I could. It could be that they would prefer having the smaller hutch that I have, and then a larger run as it seems less permanent, however I have a feeling it's going to be really, really awkward and I'd feel like I couldn't spend any time with them sat in there as obviously I'm not under 4ft tall!!! :lol:

I've been looking at these kind of things, they are all custom made so if I were to ask for a 3ft long x 3ft/2ft wide living space and 3ft long x 3ft/2ft wide run space, this would not be any longer than the current shed, and shouldn't be too wide, therefore not overtaking too much of the patio. But I'd try and match the height as much as I could to the current shed so the roofs would work together, maybe with some felt running from the current shed over the run which would allow water to just run off. and not cause any pooling (hopefully).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/aviary-ap...?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Birds&hash=item20dfc21921

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BREEDING-...?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Birds&hash=item51b9de1dc8

Obviously with them being smaller, they shouldn't be as expensive as the listing prices.
Another option may be buying or making some panels to make a small aivary (same length as shed, same height and a few feet wide) then the current hutch I have could be put inside this and I could use the hutch roof for him/the pair to jump onto and utilise the space.

 

[Freakinfreak]

I've been looking into weather proofing outside accommodation and bloody hell it will take a lot of time, money, effort, space and I'm really, really dreading it...

I've had a look at the outside housing thread and it seems that the only way to make a bunny living outside decent enough is the following...

Lots of money (don't have)
Time (a month, maybe less)
Research (can do this)
DIY skills (sort of, and also my Dad)
Space (sort of, but probably unable to use)
Another bunny (hopefully, parents have final say with this really, I'm going to assume it'll be a no)
A heat source (best thing would be another bunny, as you have all mentioned)
Company (again, another bunny would be ideal)
Insulation and thin board (B&Q, again money is the problem)
Panels/perspex for mesh/windows (B&Q, again money is the problem)

I absolutely love some of the shed/run combos and it is possible that it could be done, but with only a month, an empty bank account and horrible weather, it's looking less and less likely to work very well.
I've got a horrible feeling he's going to end up in his hutch, only being let out for a couple of hours in the evenings because I should be working by now and won't have the luxury of spending the time during the day with him.

I think I may have to just stick it out at this house for his sake. I can see myself coming out of this in the end with a broken relationship and a miserable or rehomed rabbit. I don't know how well we will last under the strain of his Step-Mum and Dad's ridiculous 'parenting' methods and general lack of human kindness or decency.

Want to pull my hair out and die in a hole :lol:

 

[Ailstar]

I've been looking into weather proofing outside accommodation and bloody hell it will take a lot of time, money, effort, space and I'm really, really dreading it...

I've had a look at the outside housing thread and it seems that the only way to make a bunny living outside decent enough is the following...

Lots of money (don't have)
Time (a month, maybe less)
Research (can do this)
DIY skills (sort of, and also my Dad)
Space (sort of, but probably unable to use)
Another bunny (hopefully, parents have final say with this really, I'm going to assume it'll be a no)
A heat source (best thing would be another bunny, as you have all mentioned)
Company (again, another bunny would be ideal)
Insulation and thin board (B&Q, again money is the problem)
Panels/perspex for mesh/windows (B&Q, again money is the problem)

I absolutely love some of the shed/run combos and it is possible that it could be done, but with only a month, an empty bank account and horrible weather, it's looking less and less likely to work very well.
I've got a horrible feeling he's going to end up in his hutch, only being let out for a couple of hours in the evenings because I should be working by now and won't have the luxury of spending the time during the day with him.

I think I may have to just stick it out at this house for his sake. I can see myself coming out of this in the end with a broken relationship and a miserable or rehomed rabbit. I don't know how well we will last under the strain of his Step-Mum and Dad's ridiculous 'parenting' methods and general lack of human kindness or decency.

Want to pull my hair out and die in a hole :lol:

You could do what I do which is have Levi and Daisy in a hutch (it's in a shed, but yours doesn't have to be) and then I move them from the hutch to their run in the garden every morning and put them back in the hutch at night. I know this isn't perfect since seeing everyone's set ups on here but it could be worse, and I intend to change their set up once I get my own place.

 

[Bex Dave and Robbie]

Could you move and get the better set up and partner bun over time? That way you are out of a horrid situation and Neo is inconvenienced for a short period. This would also give your parents time to adjust to the set up and you never know they might see what you see and change their minds? You have nothing to lose really and a lot to gain ( including potentially saving your relationship)



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[Freakinfreak]

You could do what I do which is have Levi and Daisy in a hutch (it's in a shed, but yours doesn't have to be) and then I move them from the hutch to their run in the garden every morning and put them back in the hutch at night. I know this isn't perfect since seeing everyone's set ups on here but it could be worse, and I intend to change their set up once I get my own place.

Could you move and get the better set up and partner bun over time? That way you are out of a horrid situation and Neo is inconvenienced for a short period. This would also give your parents time to adjust to the set up and you never know they might see what you see and change their minds? You have nothing to lose really and a lot to gain ( including potentially saving your relationship)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks both, they're good ideas and I've just got home from speaking with them.
Initially they wanted him under the tree we have in our garden but it has berries on it and although the birds eat them, I know rabbits have seriously complicated guts and get ill very easily. This is what it looks like, not sure if it's the exact same species or not, but it looks almost identical!

7

And he would never get any sun, and there is no grass under this tree - just mud. Basically not ideal!

We came to another solution which was a set up like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48-COMBI-...et_Supplies_Small_Animals&hash=item5661c1d35f

I would contact the seller and as they are custom made, I would get the hutch section increased to being 2ft tall, and the run below increased to being between 2.5ft-3.5ft. Would be a bit more expensive but worth it.
This would be against one of sides of the garden fences so still sort of out of the way, the only thing worrying me is that there is a tree above, next door, and if any leaves were to fall off, maybe he'd nibble. I would check in the morning and evening and maybe lunchtimes so I'm hoping it'd be ok.

I'm hoping we might not need to do this but it's nice to know my options. I'm going to wait and see what happens in terms of boyfriend's parents and Step-Mum...

Thank you for your help though.

The only thing that worries me is moving him out there on his own, in the temps that it is, and he's always been indoors - how to 'wean' him onto the cold!