A Moment of Honesty.....

[Bunnyaddict]

I have to agree with Lynn (holidayhutch) - just like any profession there are good & bad vets. I can also see it from both sides, as vets who are passionate about all the animals in their care must find it so dis-heartening when there are poor vets that undo all the good that good vets are trying to do.

From our own experience I don't feel that all vets are actually in the right job - if you get what I mean. For example at our practice our normal vet Jane is outstanding & would always take on board not just our bunnies welfare, but also our own feelings as well. I trust her 150% & would not hesitate to recommend her to other people. She is very patient & owner focused, who is always willing to listen to the owners but give the right judgement & guidance when needed.

However there is one vet at our practice that I try to avoid where I possibly can - unfortunately she is one vet that does the profession no favours what so ever. She appears to have no compassion with the animals in her care or have any people skills when it actually comes to dealing with upset owners.

When we tried to talk to her about Wilson's headtilt & alternatives we wanted to try through the research & advice we'd recieved on RU - she dismissed us & would not even consider looking at what we wanted. We were appalled & I complained about her attitude - if we'd been convinced by her that nothing else could be done for Wilson, he would have been pts Looking at him now enjoying a normal life - makes me very angry that her attitude was simply to write him off as quick as possible.

Then sadly experiences we have had with our emergency vets who provide out of hours cover for our own vets is sadly appalling too :? Sadly I can't help but think they think they can just 'make do' when it comes to bunnies until they can send you on your way to your own vet - whilst charging you the earth for the priviledge. Each time we have used them we have felt let down - 3 of those times resulted in us losing bunnies

I too hope you won't leave the forum Vikki & will continue to come on to both share your own experiences & be able to continue to promote rabbit welfare & care in the way that you are. However, people will always see RU as a place where they need to let off steam about their own vets - but that does not mean they are necessarily tarring every vet with the same brush.

 

[parsnipbun]

It is brilliant having vets/vet nurses/vet students on the forum as it gives one so much hope for the future of rabbit medicine! Just as seeing them all at the RWA conference does.

However we must be allowed to state when we feel that a vet has treated our bunnies wrongly. Or to suggest they try a different vet when a person comes on and says something like 'can you help me as my vet has said I have to starve my rabbit for 24 hours before spaying', (though that one does seem to have been less common recently thank goodness!).

Although my usual vets are excellent, I have officially complained to my vets about their emergency vet cover arrangements because their vets simply weren't up to dealing with rabbits ( I have endless examples of things missed/done wrongly) and if I have seen bad vets then surely others will have.

GPs are the same - some excellent, some specialist, some quite honestly shouldn't be in practice. Its the same with most professions (want a rubbish 'builders' thread anyone!!!).

 

[Becky86]

Sorry if im one of those people Vikki *gets paranoid* I do get angry sometimes and its usually you who i PM

I know i sometimes moan about our vets, but really they are great. They dont always 'know' whats wrong with everybun, but then we mainly deal with straight foward cases of health checks, vaccs and neuters. We do have 1 good vet at the practice, but hes not there that often sadly. Saying that, he hates it when i suggest something to do with treatment etc.

I imagine its hard for you Vikki, being on the other side of the coin, but when you have a poorly bunny (Rocky for instance) you just want to know what the cause is Saying that, i totally trust them with all my foster buns and my own buns, and theyre definately the best vets in the area

Remember i have your bunnies Vikki Theyre still eating me out of house and home :lol: Theyre on the grass outside at the moment I was getting worried when i saw this thread title! :lol: xXx

 

[Rhian33]

I completely agree with not complaining publicly as my vets do a great job. They are interested and where they lack in knowlege they are willing to find out. I couldn't ask for better.

I moved to them from another practice who couldn't even get the dosage of Baytril right for my rats. The vet wouldn't admit her mistake even when I quoted at her what the correct dosage was for a rat per kilo of animal when using 2.5% Baytril. She got the hump with me and that's the last appointment I had with them.

The vet at the new practice prescribed perfectly and said to go back to try something else if Baytril alone didn't work and if I read about anything else in the meantime to let them know and they wouldn't rule out using something non-standard.

 

[natandfluffs]

I have to agree with Lynn (holidayhutch) - just like any profession there are good & bad vets. I can also see it from both sides, as vets who are passionate about all the animals in their care must find it so dis-heartening when there are poor vets that undo all the good that good vets are trying to do.

Totally agree with that, I have similar frustrations when people tar everyone in my profession with the same brush.

I hope that the over expression of frustrations with vets on here is to do with it being a safe place to express frustrations, rather than it being that such a proportion of people in the 'real' world have these frustrations.

But just for the record, I love my vets. All of them. Including the receptionists.

 

[bensonlola]

I love my vet - she is great with rabbits and my dog and she seems to know what she is doing!! I'm a rabbit rookie - I don't know anything about medication etc.... The only thing I will say is that I won't let a young/new vet near my animals. Which is very bad - If everyone thought like me...... never get any experience...... blah blah blah. Can't bring myself to let just anybody deal with my animals, especially when I haven't a clue what they're doing and I just have to trust them. Of course when I was a newly qualified teacher, I was let loose on 30 small children, not being entirlely sure what I was doing!! :lol:

 

[Bunnytod]

I recently critised my vets, I moved vets early this year, i had a fantasic vets were i last lived,
But when a vet looks at you in disgust when you tell them your female bunny is neuterd and tells you you have risked your pets life is not good, I hate my new vets and have to look into a new one in a diffrent town, If my old one wasnt a hour away i would take them there still.

 

[VickiP]

I'm not one for posting woe-is-me threads, and i hope no-one takes this personally, but i have really noticed in the last few months how often and how harshly some people on RU criticise their vets.

I'm not saying that some complaints aren't justified, and everyone is entitled to hold an opinion and let off steam, but the venom with which some people express it really shocks me. Also, the generalised judgement people make upon a vet or a practice based on one incident or one thing a vet said or did.

I know lots of you have wonderful vets who you do praise and appreciate greatly, but please think carefully and use some compassion when dealing with your vet. We're only human, we make mistakes. Sadly many cases, regardless of illness or animal, dont come in with textbook signs and symptoms, causes are not clear on x-rays, blood tests, ultrasounds etc and medical and surgical therapies are not flawless. This frustrates the vet as much as the owner, trust me.

As has been discussed before, vets dont really get enough training in rabbits and rodents, although it is increasing. This is mainly because rabbit medicine doesnt make any money, unless you are a rabbit specialist. We'd all like to be vets because we want to treat animals, and make the money irrelevant, but you can't run a practice on nothing so most vets actually treat rabbits because they care and not for business/financial reasons. But if your vet isnt sure what is going on, consider how frustrated they feel inside, even if they're not showing it, rather than assuming they dont care or are being arrogant or ignorant. Most would welcome information and advice, and i apologise for those that don't. If you want something done about it, complain to the RCVS or the vet colleges, not the vet.

I started the "ask the vet student" thread as an outlet for people's questions and frustrations, so there could be a reasonable non-personal debate and i could learn about what frustrates or distresses owners most. But sometimes i read threads and comments about vets and it makes me not want to come on RU anymore. I don't dare post what i think on some such threads for fear of being flamed and inciting a greater argument, as thats just not constructive.

I just wanted to post this so people can understand what its like from the other side of the argument.

I agree with you Vikki but, I don't think you should leave the forum, it's not aimed at you I am sure. I guess I have been quite lucky with my vets in that they aren't exotics and I was understandably nervous after reading some of the threads on here about finding a good vet so I do think you are making a valid point about scaremongering. A lot of it is attitude aswell in terms of the person who is taking the animal to the vet, how they communicate and handle their animal. My vet's have been absolutely fine, despite not being 'exotics experts' I guess experience is also important and as I have said before, I don't think the majority of vets go into the profession because they don't care about animals, quite the opposite and any mistakes made are upsetting and embarrassing lesson's learned. No-one enters into the profession to harm animals I am sure. Please don't leave - your posts are always very fair and objective Vikki xx

 

[susieb1]

Please don't leave the forum, it needs people like you on here!!!
I do think though that people should be more aware when they comment on here. A lot of people who come on here for advice, want that, constuctive advice not criticism and belittling ( hope that is spelt right). I had rabbits for many years and have only recently (last year) taken on two from babies. I have learned so much from this forum and had lots of worries put to rest. Without people like VikkiVet and Jack's Jane we would be less wise.
Yes, at times we are frustrated with our vets but we must then do something about that and probably use our feet and find a better rabbit savvy one. Vikkivet please don't take anyone's criticism of their vet personally. I work in the teaching profession and I know how frustrated I get when people slate us but I don't take it personally and you must try and do the same. After my Honey's spay ( 10 days ago ), I had concerns, rang my vet on a Saturday morning and was unable to see my usual rabbit vet. When given the name of the vet I could see, I immediately asked if she knew anything about rabbits and was told well as much as any other vet. I was apprehensive but this lady was wonderful with Honey, very personable and told me to ring her anytime before 6 that day of the following day (a Sunday) with concerns. I did have to ring her and she put my mind at rest and talked things through and even rang me the following day to see how she was doing. If I had been unhappy with her I would have gone elsewhere which is what others should do. I find it odd that people constantly moan about all the probs they've had with their vet but then continue to go back to them. HOWEVER, remember vets like us are only human. NOBODY is perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VikkiVet do not go!!!!:wave:

 

[anaveragemuppet]

I'm not one for posting woe-is-me threads, and i hope no-one takes this personally, but i have really noticed in the last few months how often and how harshly some people on RU criticise their vets.

I'm not saying that some complaints aren't justified, and everyone is entitled to hold an opinion and let off steam, but the venom with which some people express it really shocks me. Also, the generalised judgement people make upon a vet or a practice based on one incident or one thing a vet said or did.

I know lots of you have wonderful vets who you do praise and appreciate greatly, but please think carefully and use some compassion when dealing with your vet. We're only human, we make mistakes. Sadly many cases, regardless of illness or animal, dont come in with textbook signs and symptoms, causes are not clear on x-rays, blood tests, ultrasounds etc and medical and surgical therapies are not flawless. This frustrates the vet as much as the owner, trust me.

As has been discussed before, vets dont really get enough training in rabbits and rodents, although it is increasing. This is mainly because rabbit medicine doesnt make any money, unless you are a rabbit specialist. We'd all like to be vets because we want to treat animals, and make the money irrelevant, but you can't run a practice on nothing so most vets actually treat rabbits because they care and not for business/financial reasons. But if your vet isnt sure what is going on, consider how frustrated they feel inside, even if they're not showing it, rather than assuming they dont care or are being arrogant or ignorant. Most would welcome information and advice, and i apologise for those that don't. If you want something done about it, complain to the RCVS or the vet colleges, not the vet.

I started the "ask the vet student" thread as an outlet for people's questions and frustrations, so there could be a reasonable non-personal debate and i could learn about what frustrates or distresses owners most. But sometimes i read threads and comments about vets and it makes me not want to come on RU anymore. I don't dare post what i think on some such threads for fear of being flamed and inciting a greater argument, as thats just not constructive.

I just wanted to post this so people can understand what its like from the other side of the argument.

Hello! I just wanted to say I agree with you completely about this. Vets' Surgeries have to be businesses, just like doctors' surgeries have to keep their appointment times to get as many appointments in a day as possible.

I'm really lucky with my vet, he discusses health issues with me and respects what I think it could be. He often gets the text books out and checks out that his opinion is correct before medicating. He is so thorough and I'm sure you're right that small animal appointments and medications don't get the money in. My surgery manages to fit in my animals the day I call, mostly within the hour. Noone can say that's bad service! They always know which animal I've got with me by name. I know as when my Pheobe (guinea pig) fell out of the hutch mid popcorn and acted dead (through shock), I went into shock and found myself within 15 minutes at the vets and they fit us straight in when they saw what a state we were both in and even the receptionist said she hoped Pheobe was ok. I hadn't called before hand, I just made a mad dash as I knew I had to get there! There aren't many doctors who know you on first name terms on sight is there?!

Sorry, I'm totally missing my point. I mean that vets do have a very good place in our pets' lives. They are important and help us hoomans as well as the animals themselves!

 

[VikkiVet]

Crikey! Well thats what happens when you start a thread then dont check back for the rest of the day! :lol::lol::lol:

Firstly, THANK YOU to everyone who has been so supportive and positive, and for the encouraging PMs, they are all very much appreciated and valued. Also i dont mind people PMing me with questions - if i dont know i'll say so, or go get the books out!

Just to clear a few things up - i didn't mean to imply that i felt personally offended, or that anyone was attacking or criticising me, on the contrary, RU has taught me so much and i feel very encouraged generally because we do get so little support for wanting to be bunny savvy at uni. Also, i didnt mean to imply that people were slagging off ALL vets - thats clearly just nonsense and we can all appreciate that, as in all professions, some are great, some are average and sadly some are not so great.

What i really meant was that when one incident/illness occurs people come on RU and condemn that vet as useless/dangerous/ignorant etc, when we only have one persons highly-emotive POV on the issue. In most cases i have read on RU the issue is more about communication skills (which vets do definately need to improve on in many cases, and we have huge amounts of focal teaching on now) than veterinary knowledge.

What you also have to remember is RU people are generally an exception to the rule in terms of owners, especially rabbit owners. A question vets often ask when discussing a case (with owner not there) is "do they want to spend?" - we'd love to work cases up fully, do tests, run bloods, do diagnostic imaging, hospitalise and monitor etc - and if people are willing to spend the money they we will, but more often than not people DON'T want a full work up (this includes dogs and cats etc too) so we have to use the most basic diagnostics to come up with an answer. The same goes with drugs and therapies - if you have the time/money/knowledge/skills to really nurse an animal back to health, vets can often come up with a therapeutic plan but most owners are not like this, so you have to think of how the average Joe Bloggs can medicate their rabbit when they can't catch them, can barely handle them, are scared of being scratched etc. BUT they also dont want to pay for hospitalisation or a nurse to do it for them. My suggestion is to make clear how competant you feel you are - be honest - in nursing your animals.

The question of veterinary education in vet school is endlessly frustrating. I hate how rabbits are lumped in with 'exotics' - i dont want to do amphibian/reptile/spider/bird medicine any more than is currently in the curriculum, but i do want to do more rabbit and rodent medicine. There are elective sections in 4th and 5th year in these subjects, but more should be part of the core material. The only way to change this is to campaign to both the colleges and the RCVS. The industry is consumer driven so if the consumers make a noise they might just notice!!!

I agree that a vet SHOULD say when they are not sure what is going on, or what medication to prescribe, but actually doing it is a minefield. As i've said, you lot are exception in that you would probably respond positively to this and have a discussion, welcome getting the books out/ringing another vet/a referral but many people see this as incompetance. This can lead to losing customers, complaints and even law suits. Vets that have been in practice for a good few years are more likely to feel confident enough to say they don't know, because they know that they are generally competant, but as a new or recent graduate, admitting you dont know, when your confidence is already fairly shaky, is truly terrifying. Of course the animal's welfare has to come first, but its just not as easy as it may sound.

In terms of treatment options and 'bad advice' e.g. PTS sadly this is due to the common pattern. Yes we CAN work them up, go through the options, decide on a therapy, do check ups and tweak the therapy, etc etc, but if MOST people cant afford it, dont want to do it, arent capable of making the necessary contribution to the therapy, and/or the outcome is LIKELY to be PTS at some reasonably near stage, its often easier or even preferable to just say the main option is PTS. Remember if you suggest a detailed chronic therapy that people cannot fulfill, especially if its because of time or money, it makes owners feel very guilty when they say no. Again this comes back to communication from both sides into what is possible, what is feasible, what is affordable and what the possible outcomes are and how likely they are. Hopefully the new communication skills training will improve this over the next few years, but if in doubt, always state that you can inject, orally dose, regularly clean your animal for example.

I do however apologise for the vets that have given ignorant or dangerous basic advice. They should know better on the basics. But if this happens - DO COMPLAIN, for the vets sake as much as anyone elses, preferably in writing to the vet in question. Often vets have no idea of the owners POV or what happens beyond the consulting room. If you put it in writing vets can learn from it, digest and reflect on it, chose to invite you in to discuss it, rectify what they can where appropriate. If you dont complain, sometimes they will never know. Someone mentioned conferences for specialists in human medicine - we do do that. CPD is COMPULSORY but we can chose, to a certain extent, what we study. We are indeed animal GPs so you have to chose courses and seminars in areas that are of most value to your practice (as they often pay for it) or your skill area or your career progresion. There is CPD in rabbit medicine, and it is popular with vets graduated 1-5 years because they realise they lack knowledge in that area once they get into practice. But we cant learn everyhting, in every area, on every species, so we do out best.

I guess i am asking that if you have a bad experience with a vet, or have questions about treatment etc, by all means post on RU, and if you need to rant/vent then go ahead if it will make you feel better. But try to represent your vet reasonably and accurately, rather than making judgements about their entire abilities, opinions, interests or compassion etc based on one incident. And please do discuss it and follow it up with them, not just RU!!

Don't worry, i'm not leaving! I only really meant that i would avoid the vet-based threads because they upset me - as Liz said, its disheartening to study so hard to come on RU and see colleagues UNFAIRLY slagged off. Obviously vets are over-represented on RU because of the nature of the forum - there's not a lot of call to **** off shop keepers or telesales people etc :lol::lol: - just try to think and be honest and not misrepresent us!

Phew, ok, essay over! :lol::lol::lol:

 

[antigone]

Great essay and I'm glad you're not leaving!
I am grateful to my vets for looking after my bunnies and for saving my cat's life twice; once by diagnosing and treating his hyperthyroidism and once by removing a sarcoma from his head. I don't think my poor old cat would still be around if it wasn't for my vets. Please, don't be discouraged by what is posted here. Get qualified and you will be able to save lots of lives, which is something that not many people do in their jobs.

 

[Hugo's There]

What a brilliant reply :wave: I totally agree:thumb:

So basically we need to find a constructive way to change vet training and the average pet owners view of rabbits as not being disposable pets :?

 

[thumps_]

What a brilliant reply :wave: I totally agree:thumb:

So basically we need to find a constructive way to change vet training and the average pet owners view of rabbits as not being disposable pets :?

Georgie f & Snouter have started to try to change attitudes of pet owners on their local free internet site. They've had success. see thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=218801
If only other people elsewhere would use their material across the country we'll start to make an impact, but only if it's country wide, & if we keep up the pressure changing the material every 2 - 3 months.

Add to that Vickyvet's poster, "make mine chocolate", the RWA campaign for hutch sizes, individual members contributing to media articles, & gradually people will start to listen. But we caan't leave it to a scattered few, we've all got to do a little.

 

[Radish]

I'm not one for posting woe-is-me threads, and i hope no-one takes this personally, but i have really noticed in the last few months how often and how harshly some people on RU criticise their vets.

I'm not saying that some complaints aren't justified, and everyone is entitled to hold an opinion and let off steam, but the venom with which some people express it really shocks me. Also, the generalised judgement people make upon a vet or a practice based on one incident or one thing a vet said or did.

I know lots of you have wonderful vets who you do praise and appreciate greatly, but please think carefully and use some compassion when dealing with your vet. We're only human, we make mistakes. Sadly many cases, regardless of illness or animal, dont come in with textbook signs and symptoms, causes are not clear on x-rays, blood tests, ultrasounds etc and medical and surgical therapies are not flawless. This frustrates the vet as much as the owner, trust me.

As has been discussed before, vets dont really get enough training in rabbits and rodents, although it is increasing. This is mainly because rabbit medicine doesnt make any money, unless you are a rabbit specialist. We'd all like to be vets because we want to treat animals, and make the money irrelevant, but you can't run a practice on nothing so most vets actually treat rabbits because they care and not for business/financial reasons. But if your vet isnt sure what is going on, consider how frustrated they feel inside, even if they're not showing it, rather than assuming they dont care or are being arrogant or ignorant. Most would welcome information and advice, and i apologise for those that don't. If you want something done about it, complain to the RCVS or the vet colleges, not the vet.

I started the "ask the vet student" thread as an outlet for people's questions and frustrations, so there could be a reasonable non-personal debate and i could learn about what frustrates or distresses owners most. But sometimes i read threads and comments about vets and it makes me not want to come on RU anymore. I don't dare post what i think on some such threads for fear of being flamed and inciting a greater argument, as thats just not constructive.

I just wanted to post this so people can understand what its like from the other side of the argument.

very well put..wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[yoshi&gizmo]

:thumb: Well put Vikkivet and continue with your training and advise on here . It is truely valued.

I know what you mean when you say about the people on here being a select few [ie willing to take bunnies to the vets etc]. Certain people i know family and friends alike [please don't slate me for this ] have said surely it would be cheaper to just get a new bunny :shock: They don't understand that it doesn't matter to people like us the finanical value to a rabbit.... our rabbits our are family.

I remember recently having a conversation with my vet [who is ace i might add ] about the fact that rabbits are apparently the third most popular pet and yet knowledge in vets seems limited :?She too explained the fact about the training etc and said she personaly had learnt more by experience and by being a bunny mummy herself. She also goes to the RWF confrences and got me to join up to [what a great source of information and support that is ]

I know i used to rant about my old vet but with good cause i felt. However I do feel for vets as why would you train to be something that sadly a large majority of people just aren't willing to pay for. :?

Keep up the good work Vikki & others.... if there is things that can be done to help increase peoples knowledge i would happily help any way i could.

 

[Hugo's There]

Georgie f & Snouter have started to try to change attitudes of pet owners on their local free internet site. They've had success. see thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=218801
If only other people elsewhere would use their material across the country we'll start to make an impact, but only if it's country wide, & if we keep up the pressure changing the material every 2 - 3 months.

Add to that Vickyvet's poster, "make mine chocolate", the RWA campaign for hutch sizes, individual members contributing to media articles, & gradually people will start to listen. But we caan't leave it to a scattered few, we've all got to do a little.

Exactly, I do think things are changing but far too slowly.

Some of the things members are actively doing is great. I also helped the RWA with info on P@H adoption centres a while back.

It is also why I suggested giving more support to the RWA, as they have worked miracles with changing the perception of rabbits as pets both in the pet shops and in the area of rabbit medicine. But they can't do it without our continuing support And in all honesty there has been the odd thread on here criticising the RWA :roll:

I think it is so important that we don't scare away new and inexperienced members from this forum. It happens all to often. How will they ever learn to fight for the best possible care for their rabbits if we don't show them in a constructive and friendly way what is available for bunnies if they just knew where to look? And the more of us that demand better care for our bunnies the more likely things will change

 

[Coineanach]

I haven't read the whole thread but I'd like to add that sometimes you just need to rant, and it's easier for some people to rant on an annonymous forum. And whilst some vets are great (mine, for example :lol there are others which are not.
Even considering that vets don't get a lot of exotics training, some are simply too pigheaded to listen to your ideas about your animal, and I think that annoys people more than anything.
I'm in no way defending vet bashing, more saying that I can see where people are coming from.

 

[luvabun]

Looking at it from the other side, a little honesty from the Vets would be appreciated too. How many actually say "sorry I won't take your money and attempt to treat your animal because I don't know enough about rabbits".

Totti would be dead now if I hadn't changed Vets. He had a bout of stasis and was kept in for observation then allowed home as "he has eaten a dandelion leaf". I took him home and knew immediately that he was still poorly so phoned a rabbit savvy Vet that I knew from the Rescue scene and transferred to him. Totti needed further intenstive treatment for over a week.

I am very lucky to have 2 excellent rabbit savvy Vets in my area and the one who looks after my trio walks on water as far as I'm concerned.

 

[kayj]

My vets Caroline & Lloyd are the best - I can phone them at anytime day or night even if not on duty. This week Blue my Springer as had to have an op my vets were on holiday but Caroline still took the time to ring to see which vet was dealing with him and to ask what was being done and was texting and phoning us to make sure we were both ok about him (Blue not the vet as he had an excellent vet looking after him).

A few others on here use my vets and they will tell you exactly the same about Caroline & lloyd. I think I and my animals are very lucky to have such dedicated people looking after us.