Birth Advice Please

Wasn't sure where to put this as I couldn't find a breeding section (probably for obvious reasons: I'm not for breeding anyway, I hate the concept of it in a species that there are too many of going uncared for already.)
This was an accidental pregnancy, I promise, and I would have had her aborted and spayed if I had found out. We were going to take her to be spayed when we took the two boys to be neutered, and another girl spayed, but we had to wait for some of the others to reach the right age and to take them all at the same time gave us a 5% discount.

Right: she was initially from a breeder. She's had two litters before. She's a Rex. She's about 4 years old but we're not exactly sure. We rescued her from a place where she was not being cared for at all.
Both of her previous litters have been with her neutered brother helping to raise them (at her previous home). This time she's with a 4 month old daughter and the same neutered brother. (Still trying to work out how she got pregnant, but the likely fathers we've narrowed it down to are healthy.)

She gave birth on Valentine's Day, which is very nice Had between 4 and 5 babies. You see - because we didn't know she'd given birth all I saw was her lying down in the corner of the hutch (three stories, very big, the middle story doesn't have a bedroom and that's where she gave birth.) Very worried, I opened the door, and suddenly realised that she'd been feeding a litter of babies under a mass of black fur.
I've checked the babies a few time since and they are very skinny, so I'm worried I've put her off giving birth. Our vets are not close and a friend of ours phoned the vets for advice about a similar situation but all they wanted to do was to get her to bring them in, and when she did all the babies died on the way.

A friend of ours bred rabbits for meat when she was younger, and had over 50 at any time. She advised us not to, at any circumstances, take the babies away and feed them because we would not be able to safely wean them from us as a mother rabbit can?
Another person we know suggested formula milk for human babies, and for the rabbits to lick it off fingers. We weren't sure about this.
Someone else told us to just leave the babies and let them die if that's what's going to happen.

I don't know what to do? One or two are slightly plump, but a few are very skinny. They're all still alive... so if they haven't been fed at all, then surely they would be dead?
Is it because there are other rabbits in the hutch: she doesn't seem concerned about them, and they don't seem to be curious about the babies. So I'm not sure and she's raised babies with others in the hutch before?

Some advice would be really appreciated.
Just to add: if they were older I would have no reservations about taking them to the vets, but it seems like certain death really, especially getting the mother stressed as she is not at all used to being in a car. Also we don't trust our vets due to an incident with a rabbit and some terrible advice that led to his death.
And we are against breeding!

Thank you

I don't really know about rabbit babies but I think you should take the other rabbits that mum is in with out of the hutch/cage. Let mum and babies have their own space. I think you need to give mum extra hay and veg too.

Someone who knows what to do will post soon I hope

I'm no expert but I've heard this be mentioned a few times...

rub your hands in mummy's poop so you have her scent on you and gently move the babies into the bedroom area or somewhere warmer, then mummy bun wont know you touched them. Wait for someone more useful to come along though as i'm not 100% sure, this forum may be useful, lots of caring breeders on there with great advice: www.rabbitretreat.com x

perhaps send a pm to sky-o
she is good with things like this

Mum needs more food while she has the babies to make sure she has plenty of milk. Veggies are good too for the moisture content. It sounds like she is trying to feed them as you mentioned that a couple have nice round tummies.

It can be really hard to supplement them with a formula and you are more likely to lose the babies that way. The best thing to do is distract mum either by petting her or giving her some veg and popping the babies under her for an extra nurse a couple of times a day until she has completely got the hang of it.
Rabbits usually only nurse once or twice a day and it tends to be first thing in the morning and at night mine seem to like 10pm lol. If you can give mum a pet then check the babies around this time just to see if they have nice round bellies it will give you more peace of mind.

Thanks for the replies:

the buns are still skinny and make a lot of noise. If I moved them to a bedroom that would mean moving them 20 inches up or down, which would distress mum incredibly.

The other two times she gave birth with others in the hutch and didn't mind them.

Is it really okay to take them from the nest and put them against the mum?? I'm not sure about this. Whatever the time of day; they are skinny and noisy.

At the moment the buns have a dog bowl of pellets, half a cabbage and more hay that a horse could eat daily. Plus a portion of pellets and hay every morning. The mother eats plenty and has more than enough: supplemented by time outside, yogurt drops and dried banana and apple.

If they are skinny and noisy it doesn't sound like they are getting fed. Rabbits aren't like dogs as long as you have stroked her first she shouldn't mind you handling the babies. I handle all my litters from the day they are born and have never had a rejected litter. I usually check them every couple of days.

For whatever reason she is not feeding formula may be your only choice if she won't feed them. I couldn't tell you a formula tbh. I think the vet gave us one once that contained condensed milk and powdered milk but it's no where as good as the mothers and they aspirate very easily. If you do go down a formula route they will need to be fed more than twice a day.

Sorry I hope that makes sense I have a terrible cold atm and my brains a bit frazzled.
Edit to add if she is a standard Rex they are good sized buns. The reason I mentioned the food is that it's hard going on the doe providing milk so you usually have to up her pellet intake to help otherwise they can drop quite a lot of weight

The mother needs more veg than normal even if she's not eating it all. Personally I would double her veg content or more maybe not a whole cabbage but a mixture of veg. She will convert alot of what she takes in into food for her babies. Does she eat plenty hay have you noticed? I'm not an expert on this stuff but I would say to up the amount of food she is getting.

Thanks for the replies

The bunnies aren't as skinny as they were but they are still on the thin side. I'm going to move them into a proper nestbox as she gave birth in the middle of the floor sort of and they're starting to get to the age when they move around.

She know has a lot more greens, corn on the cob (from pet shop) and small bits of apple or pear every day.
And she's building her nest up a lot all of a sudden.

At the moment she's in this hutch:

Except she, her brother and her older daughter are in there and they have all three stories. The babies are on the middle floor... Will I need to close off the ramps for when they start walking around ???

Thanks again x

corn on the cob isnt really suitable for rabbits as they cant digest it and it can cause blockages. Extra greens, spring greens, broccolli etc are good instead.

Also, if she has still been with the male, she could about to have more babies.

Are you sure the male is neutered? Can you check him and see?

If they are still alive after 3 days they are being fed, I would leave mum to it unless they become weak/ill. It is very hard to hand-rear a baby rabbit, and it normally results in the rabbit's death.

I know some people have held the mother over the kits for them to feed, stroking her, but she has to be relaxed. A kick from her could kill them.

As it is not her first litter she should know what she is doing, I would play it by ear and see how it goes.

Thank you for the comments,

The male is definetely neutered they've been living together for 4 years now and she had to escape and be mated with by a definetely not-neutered male to get pregnant.

They still make noise in the nest though ? And they're all skinny and wriggly.

I'll stop with the corn on the cob then - although someone bought me a pack of 10 for christmas. Anyway I can give them it slowly or something ?

(((Anyone want any baby rabbits in Bedfordshire?)))

Dont know whether you could feed it slowly, best to play it safe and not feed altogether tbh. Hamsters quite like them if you have one?

It is weird that they are skinny, are their bellies not rounded at all? Contact the previous owner and ask whether this was the case with her previous litters. Some rabbits just do not make good mothers. As a breeder she may have some good advice too (if she was reputable?). Could you make her stand over the nest and stroke her and feed her there so they have a chance to suckle?

Its been a long time since I had baby rabbits but I dont remember them being particularly noisy :? I would ring a vet, one that is a rabbit specialist (otherwise you may get wrong advice) and ask their opinion. Afterall a phone call doesnt cost anything and you dont have to take them in if you dont want to.

It might be a good idea to post this on a more breeder-oriented forum as well, as due to this being a rescue-based one not a lot of people have experience of breeding. Some may not have the best views about their rabbits and their welfare but they do know an awful lot about one thing - breeding.

I don't have experience of breeding but I'd have definitely taken the other rabbits out and I'd add more hay & spring greens herbs / carrot with tops for mum, I'd completely avoid that corn rubbish I'm not sure why it continues to be sold for rabbits to be honest?

If I were you now I'd section of the bottom two levels for mum & babies and if poss swap the current middle level to the bottom that way you don't physically disturb the nest if not possible then I'd move them down in tact as much as possible in the current nest after stroking mum and showing her what your doing. Id make sure the other two rabbits got out in a run for at least a couple of hours while they are contained to one section though.

Personally if it were me I'd be investing in a new 6 ft hutch for mum and a baby daughter or 2 to live in & let the other pair remain bonded in the trio hutch.

Hope it works out & you find some good loving homes, will you homecheck ?

Hiya,

Sorry I missed your initial post, I've moved your topic to health and you'll get more views and it's the babies health your worried about.

Typical of a bun to be awkward and give birth in the middle. Ideally you want to separate them out but best not to move the nest either. It's really up to you, if you have somewhere else taking out the other would be an option otherwise it's fingers crossed the others leave the youngsters alone. I guess you're around a week old now so if no problems that's promising, just continue to keep a close eye. Once the babies are mobile in about a week and a half moving the nest is much less of an issue. You going to need to think about housing long term as that's a big hutch but will get tight with three adults and a growing litter in. The babies won't be able to manage ramps initially so watch out for them falling down a level. Moving them down in a week or two and giving mum the bottom hutch with a run in front might solve the space issue.

Babies should be plump, it sounds like mum might not be producing enough milk. How is her weight? If she's looking a little skinny too then feeding her up may help. Most breeders use higher protein pellets, you could gradually mix those into her diet, if you can't find breeder pellets those sold for juvenal rabbits will also be slightly higher protein. Readi grass and alfalfa are also good for adding weight. The babies should start feeding on solids just part two weeks and hopefully will catch up in weight then.

If her weight is fine it could be she's not hanging about to feed them well. It may be the other buns disturb her or just she's not a great mum. If that's the case, you could try holding each baby to her to feed, if you have two people, get one to hold mum in a sitting position and the other to hold a baby to a nipple. Repeat once or twice a day.

Tam

Any news? How are they getting on?

Sorry, had a brief account problem and couldn't reply.

Was at the vets today so mentioned the corn on the cob... they hadn't heard of any issues with giving it to rabbits. I'm going to cut up each one and give it to them in sections, and some to the hamsters and gerbils as well.
Bellies aren't rounded and they still appear thin. They're much healthier though and have stopped making noise.

There are 3 plain black, 3 muddled black and white colours and 1 dark brown flecked with black.

I'm probably just having a blond moment, but what's homecheck ? I make sure that wherever our buns go they will be vaccinated, properly cared for, neutered and prefferably kept in a large hutch and run. If I can't find homes for them I will keep them until I do, as they are completely my responsibilty and I have no right to unload them to a pet shop or rescue centre.

I can't move the baby's nest: the others in the hutch seem okay with it and don't really take an interest. I attached a 10 by 20 feet run area (on concrete) to the hutch today and all three adults were running around happily.

I'm aware of the hutch problems :/ I don't want to seperate the oldest two brother and sister, as they have been together virtually since birth and are one of those pairs that are inseperably in love. I have never seen two rabbits so greatly in adoration of each other. I think that removing the male would only stress the mother, as she has never been without him apart from when he was neutered 3 years ago.
I want to introduce the daughter to Dino, her half-brother. Can I do this while she's still living with her mum and uncle, or will bringing back the scent of another rabbit into the hutch make the mother feel in danger ?

Would two stories of that hutch, plus a perminant 5 by 5 run be okay for the mum, her brother and the litter until they're 3 weeks old ?

When can I start holding the babies properly, out of the hutch ? Is 10 days okay ?

Thank you for the advice, I'll keep you updated on the babies progress.
If you know anyone in Bedfordshire interested in a rabbit *please* mention this litter. They are reliable buns, neither of the parents moult or have genetic teeth problems, and they come from a beautiful (appearance and temperment wise) family.

I'm glad the babies are ok, I'm not personally experienced enough to disagree with your choices I was just talking from my own personal 'feeling' in terms of what I'd do... Your right to trust your own instincts as they are your rabbits & you know better in terms of bonds etc I wouldn't introduce any new rabbits though I think that would be potentially dangerous. Hopefully you'll get somemmore constructive advice, I'm not really confident to do that on this, a homecheck is exactly what your doing regarding ensuring they will be adopted into suitable/safe homes & actually inspecting the premises/conditions the animals will go to really to ensure the new owners are genuine & do have what they 'say' they have, best of luck I hope they find loving homes.

Thanks anyway x

Oh the only other thing is I really would avoid that dried corn especially in the kits area, I fed it to a my first doe once as I was given some aswell & likely she sort of shaved the bits off & left them I'm sure she may have chewed a kernel or two but most was left once stripped from the cob, I do have link to a well respected vets dietary recommendations & she does say it can cause blockages in the rabbits delicate system - I willpost it tonight just a quick look on my phone ATM I think it would be dangerous for the kits potentially to find it ' eat it. Probably why we never see corn in rabbit food mixes or indeed wild rabbits eating corn on the cob - that stuff is so hard & dry aswell is just screams obstruction to me !