Rabbit Wee/Bladder stones/excess calcium A WORD OF WARNING

Hi everyone

I have always been quite smug with my bunnies as I always thought I fed them good stuff,hay hay and more hay and greens. HOWEVER! :!:
My beautiful lionhead Miffy began to loose his litter training, and the wee he had started to do was cloudy, when the wee dried it left a white "painty" residue, almost creamy.
I took him to the vets a couple of days ago as I had diagnosed him with sludgy bladder, the precursor to bladder stones. I was right, and annoyingingly I have brought this on due to his diet!! I have always been so careful! Like most of the bunny mummys on this site I am constantly trying to get healthy stuff for them to eat, and on one of the other threads I have outlined my eating schedule (I think its the one about what sort of hay to feed bunnies)
But because I feed them predominately curly kale and spring greens in the evening (they get unlimited hay all day and night as well) which I now realise are high in calcium I have made poor Miffys bladder poorly! A word of warning to everyone, watch out what green foods you are feeding your bunnys as there are certain ones that are calcium rich and can cause sludgy bladder and bladder stones.
I was lucky, I caught mine quick enough, but I am really annoyed that I have made him poorly. Does anyone have an exhaustive list of which foods are calcium rich? I know that the following are but need more details:
Curly Kale
Spring Greens
Broccoli
Spinach

Its going to be difficult introducing new foods to an already fussy rabbit, and Snuffy (his brother) and Scampi Doodle (his friend) will also have to go onto this new regime.

Thanks Guys

The ones you have listed are the main veggie culprits for calcium but also watch alfalfa hay. I dont think spring greens are all that high but savoy/green cabbage are dreadful.

All rabbits excrete excess calcium through their urine so its not unusual for urine to be milky or dry to leave a white stain, however, a problem is seriously indicated when the urine feels 'gritty' to the touch.

I personally dont feed high calcium food stuffs more than 3 times per week.

Well according to that Savoy cabbage isn't all that bad

what is the appropriate amt. of mg of Calcium that a rabbit need? Is there a chart based on their wt.?

I have a fantastic book(well I like it) called 'Rabbit Nutrition' by Virginia Richardson, I got it from the RWA website.

It has a list of high calcium veg in it and is well worth buying I think.

no savoys isn't as bad as you'd think, although it doesn't have spring greens (I wonder if they are collard greens)

Mia, hope that miffy gets better soon.

so other than alfalfa which i never feed except for an odd treat from one of the toys from the hay experts are there any hays that should be avoided? thanks

Parsley is high but flat leaf parsley isn't

i think coriander is quite high too.

what is the best veg to feed then? because usually people recommend leafy greens - but they are all high in calcium. :?

Oh my goodness! I try to avoid calcium as I beleive it has caused repeated bouts of GI stasis but I have fed all of these to them. grrrr back to the drawing board

One of the vets at the RWA conference said that carrot tops are one of the worst offenders and should only be fed as an occasional treat.

Oh dear, kale & carrot tops are Hugos favourites
Thanks for highlighting this problem, is there anything that rabbits can actually safely eat?! :lol:

I really dont understand some of the advice given about calcium. I've heard that hay, particularly timothy hay, is actually a lot higher in calcium than spring greens. I've also heard that you need to ensure rabbits get enough calcium to keep their jaw bones strong and stop their teeth roots growing up into their eyes/cheeks. But then I've also heard a lot of warnings about overfeeding calcium. I'm just so confused!

Does anyone know what the latest advice is? Does it depend on the age of the rabbit at all?

Just wrote a huge long reply to this - and then lost it to the ether!!

Anyhow - here it is in shortened form!

I am unconvinced that there is always a direct connection between calcium input and throughput/output and individual tendancy to sludge/stones in rabbits, Many vets feel the same (I am NOT a vet though) and for a discussion of the complexities of the rabbit's calcium handling system see Harcourt-Brown.

My personal experience based on 11 rabbits at present (others at Rainbow Bridge) is that if you feed all your rabbits the same, they will not all respond the same in terms of calcium (ie sludge or 'stones').

I have had two rabbits with calcium problems. One had EC and associated kidney problems - and the granulations that impair kidney function. The other however has true 'sludge'! Teasel has always had the same diet as all the other buns - a mix of hay, good quality pellets, grass from the lawn and the allotment, a variety of weeds, herbs, and veg - again mostly from the allotment. He runs around like mad during the day with a huge space (patio, lawn, house etc!), and drinks, and stays slim, and does all the things that are meant to stop sludge - but sludge he has by the bucketsful!

He has always seemed to have a slight problem but as he gets older (he's 7 now) its got worse, He had to have his 'toothpaste' expressed a couple of times (ouch!) and then they gave up and drained it under GA, but it was all back in 8 weeks! He is now on calcum low pellets (Bunny Basic T) and low calcium diet, and extra tempting drinking water, and frusol to break the calcium down, but it makes not a jot of difference. he still deposits calcium in his bladder.

His original partner, who ate EXACTLY the same as him but could not run around much (hind leg amputation) never had calcium sludge, neither does his present partner, neither do the other rabbits on the same feed regime.

SO I personally feel that, unless you know you have a rabbit that is prone to sludge already, it is best to just carry on with the diet you have (as long as its good for them in all the other ways (so hay, grass, veg etc), because a tendency to sludge appears to be very very variable and very dependent on the individual rabbit.

Do not feel you are a bad bunny mummy if you are doing what is generally considered 'right' for the majority of buns and yours just has a tendancy to sludge. Obviously you may want to know that a diet of pure carrot tops is inadvisable, but then a diet if pure anything is inadvisable.

And I would personally say that you should aim to maintain a balanced and good diet for your bun that is reasonably obtainable by you and within your budget , and not trying to add in the factor of 'must be low calcium' unless you know there is specific problem with your specific bun.

Now I await flaming! (an ironic fate for someone that spends about an hour each day searching the allotments for their favourite grasses!)



PS and for those that do have calcium buns, BEWARE of comfrey which has about the highest calcium content of any 'weed' and is colloquially known as 'knitbone'!

I'm not going to flame you :lol::lol: I agree, if your bun shows no sign of sludgy bladder then don't worry about it. I have 2 buns though who have a tendency towards it (one had EC a few months ago) and so am trying to do something about it. I am wondering about trying to increase their drinking by putting something in the water like cranberyy or apple juice but don't know if that could cause more trouble with tummy etc than it is worth.

With my sludgy bun (and the EC bun. Bramble) we tried apple juice in the water - just to make them drink more.
They did drink more - though can't say that seemed to help, But Teasels partner did get lots fatter with all the apple juice which she LOVED!!:lol:

We didn't try cranberry, which I understand some people feel helps with breaking down calcium in humans - but not sure if it would have affect on buns due to different systems.

The Frusol is supposed to break down Teasals calcium so he pees it out it rather than retains it as sludge and possible backing up to cause uroliths.

I read ( not sure if it was on carrot cafe) that calcium content in veg is debatable due to the water content there can be more risk of sludge from feeding pellets?

Anyone know how high in calcium Readigrass is, is it ok to feed everyday if buns don't get any soft poops from it (I know it can cause extra ceacels in some)?

Here is that calcium article from carrotcafe Missy

http://www.carrotcafe.com/n/calcium.html

Very interesting article, well worth a read

Thanks have just had another read of it