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Another death: Urgent advice needed

Angie65

Wise Old Thumper
on 19th Aug, Chocolate died. She was ill for just under a week. She picked up before she died & was eating again Thurs/Fri. On the Sat she stopped eating again, & was treated for Bloat, & vet detected a heart murmour. She died Sunday 19th morning.

Yesterday morning Barley bun, my Frenchie X of about 18 months old was a bit quiet. She was eating, but wasn't her attack-my-feet self. Mick came home in the afternoon, with instructions to see how she was doing (I was at work:( ) & she had died.

My vets were ace & agreed to do a post mortem last night - they got an on-call vet out & did it at about 8.30pm. There were no obvious reasons for her death - vet said there was a small amount of mucus in her windpipe, but that that can occur after death. The vet has sent some tissue off to the lab - results are back in a week. She did say that sudden death like this can be caused by VHD.

Barley & Chocolate were part of a bonded group of 13. All were vaccinated 4.5months ago for VHD & 5 mths for myxi. They live in one room, with supervised outdoor access about 2-3 times a week, to an enclosed back garden where I have never seen anything larger than a bird. All poisonous plants are removed & low branches, although they have plenty of brambles & dandelions to go at. There is a plum tree in my garden, that has been dropping plums constantly over the last 3-4 weeks. Before buns go outside, I pick them all up - I know buns can have small amounts of plums, but that wasn't a small amount & I didn't want the fruit rotting into the grass & somebun eating it.

All my own buns & foster buns have garden time - except 2 single fosters that have only been out in the run, never used by my own buns.

I have bun-room shoes. I walk through all 3 bun rooms & the enclosed garden with these, but nowhere else. In the other 2 bun rooms were the 2 single fosters that only use the run - so their access to my own buns was restricted to me & my bun room shoes. One of these buns went back to the Rescue he came from this week. He was completely unvaccinated. The other single foster was vacs for myxi only.

The final bun room holds Calel & Treacle, & two other fosters. They too are separated from my bonded group by a door, but have had garden time, & are subject to the cleaning out equip & shoes. Calel & Treacle are vacs, as is one foster, but the other single bun is myxi vacs only.

Upstairs I have my final foster. The only contact he has had with my other buns in the last 6-8 weeks, is my cleaning out equipment - a dustpan & brush, & a sweeping brush & garden time (alone, but same space as the other buns) He was vacs for myxi & VHD approx 7-8mths go, but I can check

All bun rooms are disinfected monthly. They were done Wed.

So I want to know:
1) what are the symptoms of VHD?
2) What is the incubation period?
3) How does it spread? My bun room shoes could be walking it in & out of everyone?
4) How effective is the Vaccine? & how long does it take to be effective after dosage? I will get the unvacs against VHD buns done today, or will this just damage their immune system?
5) Could bloat be a symptom - & if it is, should Chocolate be taken to the vet for tissue samples, or is it way too late:shock:
6) What else shows no symptoms (Barley), but would need lab tests as opposed to a PM:shock: ?:(
 
Sorry to hear your sad news. I always though that the VHD vaccine was a lot more effective than the myxi one, although don't quote me on that!
 
I'm really sorry Angie, I have no advice other than to say I was advised that a VHD vaccine gives full protection, unlike the myxi. I hope you get to the bottom of it and it turns out to be nothing more than an unfortunate co-incidence

Hugs, Kathryn xx
 
Oh goodness Angie :cry:

The inncubation period for VHD is 3-4 days post infection. In large group outbreaks the death rate peaks at 2-3 days after FIRST death. The outbreak lasts up to 2 weeks.

The VHD Vaccine is more likely to be effective than the Myxo vaccine as the VHD vaccine contains the actual VHD Virus and so does not rely on cross immunity. But if a Bun has a poor immune response to *any* vaccine there is always a chance that it wont give protection. NO vaccine can be claimed to be 100% effective.

VHD is often quite obvious on PM but tissue samples are needed to confirm it.


VHD can be spread by direct contact between rabbits, by biting insects, on human clothing or other animal vectors.

VHD often presents as 'sudden death' with no preceeding symptoms. Occassionally the Bun will be very quiet,anorexic with fast breathing and a high temperature. Bloat can also occur.

It is too late for a PM on Chocolate :cry:

Coccidiosis can cause bloat. Faecal samples could be tested. But tissue samples from poor Barley could also be used to detect coccidia if tissue from the intestines was sent.

Rarely EC can cause sudden death if the lesions caused by the EC spores have effected the heart.

Undiagnosed heart disease can also cause a sudden death

I am really sorry Angie :cry: :cry:

Jane
 
Oh goodness Angie :cry:

The inncubation period for VHD is 3-4 days post infection. In large group outbreaks the death rate peaks at 2-3 days after FIRST death. The outbreak lasts up to 2 weeks.

The VHD Vaccine is more likely to be effective than the Myxo vaccine as the VHD vaccine contains the actual VHD Virus and so does not rely on cross immunity. But if a Bun has a poor immune response to *any* vaccine there is always a chance that it wont give protection. NO vaccine can be claimed to be 100% effective.

VHD is often quite obvious on PM but tissue samples are needed to confirm it.


VHD can be spread by direct contact between rabbits, by biting insects, on human clothing or other animal vectors.

VHD often presents as 'sudden death' with no preceeding symptoms. Occassionally the Bun will be very quiet,anorexic with fast breathing and a high temperature. Bloat can also occur.

It is too late for a PM on Chocolate :cry:

Coccidiosis can cause bloat. Faecal samples could be tested. But tissue samples from poor Barley could also be used to detect coccidia if tissue from the intestines was sent.

Rarely EC can cause sudden death if the lesions caused by the EC spores have effected the heart.

Undiagnosed heart disease can also cause a sudden death

I am really sorry Angie :cry: :cry:

Jane


Thanks Jane. Would it be worth getting faecal samples of all the bonded group? I could seperate them with mesh & get individual samples. I'll ring the vets now & make sure instestine tissue was included in the sample. Barley will not be cremated until Monday.

All bonded group buns were treated with Panacur for 28 days after Sugar did the wheezy-breathing thing. She did it twice, but has been fine since, but I could get her tested for EC.

The vet confirmed that Barley did definitely not have bloat (I asked that after Chocolate, & that place I visited I mentioned in my PM). She also said she had limited experience on Rabbit PMs (afterwards:roll: ) cos they were rarely requested. She said she would not be happy diagnosing VHD without the tissue samples, especially in a vaccinated bun. Also, it's my fosters that aren't vacs for VHD, & would more likely to have come into contact with it as fosters are kept away from the bonded group. So if she had that, it's from me.

All other buns are fine at present, & I can stay with them 24/7 to see any change. Alex is quiet, but he did come over for noserubs, & he may be missing Barley as they often laid together. He's easier to read than Barley was. She ate/pooed as normal when she had that eye abscess.

Vet came out last night, & listened to heart & lungs of all buns, except Calel. (Any Calel probs, & he will get sedated to be checked over)
 
Oh, I am so so sorry about this, you must be in agony.
So if she had that, it's from me.
I don't think this disease it like that so much, bun to bun thru clothing etc., like other diseases. There are so many other numerous routes, for it, so do not think you carried it from one area to another or blame yourself at all.
They are in very good hands and you are doing everything you possibly can.
I hope you can find out what this is very soon. So very sorry for your Barley Bun :cry:
 
I`m sorry you`ve had another loss Angie:cry:

In my experience of VHd it doesn`t sound like that was what caused them to me. My digby fought it for nearly 48hrs but he was anorexic the whole time, stopped pooping & weeing, his stomach wasn`t bloated, just gassy & like Angel & blue his temperature was very high.
Angel & Blue both passed away within 18 hrs of displaying symptons.

In my personal opinion the fact that Chocolate fought illness for nearly a wk & picked up temporarily doesn`t sound like VHD to me.

Both Digby & angel had pm`s done which both showed things suggesting VHD & then their tissue samples confirmed this.

Whatever has caused you to lose your bunnies i sincerely hope you get some answers soon & am thinking of you & the buns in the meantime.

Su.x
 
Thanks Jane. Would it be worth getting faecal samples of all the bonded group? I could seperate them with mesh & get individual samples. I'll ring the vets now & make sure instestine tissue was included in the sample. Barley will not be cremated until Monday.

All bonded group buns were treated with Panacur for 28 days after Sugar did the wheezy-breathing thing. She did it twice, but has been fine since, but I could get her tested for EC.

The vet confirmed that Barley did definitely not have bloat (I asked that after Chocolate, & that place I visited I mentioned in my PM). She also said she had limited experience on Rabbit PMs (afterwards:roll: ) cos they were rarely requested. She said she would not be happy diagnosing VHD without the tissue samples, especially in a vaccinated bun. Also, it's my fosters that aren't vacs for VHD, & would more likely to have come into contact with it as fosters are kept away from the bonded group. So if she had that, it's from me.

All other buns are fine at present, & I can stay with them 24/7 to see any change. Alex is quiet, but he did come over for noserubs, & he may be missing Barley as they often laid together. He's easier to read than Barley was. She ate/pooed as normal when she had that eye abscess.

Vet came out last night, & listened to heart & lungs of all buns, except Calel. (Any Calel probs, & he will get sedated to be checked over)

Personally I would adopt 'worst case scenario' proceedures til you know the PM results.
I'd use Jeyes fluid or bleach for disinfecting all living areas, cages, litter trays, food bowls and bottles, toys etc.
I would not put anybun out into the garden (free range) or into a grass based run. If the run is on concrete I'd Jeyes it down and allow it to thoroughly dry before using it and I'd not put different Buns in the same run.

I'd use a different dustpan and brush for cleaning out each group/individual Bun.

You could *speak with the Vet* about the possibility of Coccidiosis and ask if you should administer prophylactic COXOID to all Buns

http://www.everythingforpets.com/harkers_coxoid.pet/use.id.5.item_id.416.dept.103/

Is Sugar related to the late Barley ?

Could it be an acute, over-whelming Pasteurelosis (Sugar having previously displayed some abnormal respiratory symptoms) causing severe inflammation in the respiratory tract meaning Barley could not breath (the mucus in the airway) :?

Personally for now I would not request any more diagnostics til the PM results come back but just adopt rigid quarantine proccedures

:cry:

Janex
 
Oh, I am so so sorry about this, you must be in agony. I don't think this disease it like that so much, bun to bun thru clothing etc., like other diseases. There are so many other numerous routes, for it, so do not think you carried it from one area to another or blame yourself at all.
They are in very good hands and you are doing everything you possibly can.
I hope you can find out what this is very soon. So very sorry for your Barley Bun :cry:

It's only at times like this you realise how :censored: your quarantine procedures are. Someone started a thread on it recently & I thought then I would tighten up - I stopped free ad buns etc, & only get from known Rescues, but then 2 die & you wonder if it was linked, but can't mourn properly, cos you are waiting for another to go. I'm completely paranoid at the minute. I have rung my vets 6 times today, already (&bless her - she took my call every time).

I'm playing trade-off games with Karma. And I don't even believe in Karma:roll:
 
I'm playing trade-off games with Karma. And I don't even believe in Karma:roll:
Aww, I do that too, and don't believe. I pray also at times like this and don't believe too, altho believe at the moment if that makes sense.
I have rung my vets 6 times today, already (&bless her - she took my call every time).
:
I probably will be admonished by someone for this, but could you ask your vet for 'Questran' to give to the buns to sequester any possibly toxins out of their bodies while you are waiting to find out what is wrong? It is very safe and inocculous, yet can save your bunnies life while you are sorting things out. You vet may not know what Questran is-you can print out Dana Krempels ilieus article and at the end it tells what it is, the dosage and how to administer. Your vet can write a prescription and you can get it at any pharmacy. I know Jane listed it as being in her emergency kit, she could give you better info.
Hope things get better soon x
 
Im really sorry Angie :( It must be so scary for you right now.

I have to agree with what Jane said about adopting the worst case scenario, its what we did and we managed to contain our infection to just Misty. Quarantine and hygiene really are critical so I would treat it as potentially contagious until proven otherwise.

Will be thinking of you X
 
If you have/had rabbits non vaccinated on the premises for more than a week then I think the odds are it's not VHD. VHD is so highly infectious unless you're taking full precautions (and even then) I think you'd have seen deaths in those rabbits.

There are other things that are cross infectious though :(

I hope the pm results show something helpful.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to get poop samples looked at just in case.

Hopefully it's just a coincidence but it's best to go all out now just in case. Obviously you can't do much with a group together but make sure everything you do with them is separate between any other rabbits so different brushes/dustpans, shoes, wash hands etc.

Disinfecting things more frequently will help keep cross infection down to a minimum too.

Tam
 
I'm so sorry :( The two deaths may well have nothing to do with each other but for now it's best to do the 2 week incubation and quarrantine period :(
It sounds as though Chocolate was weak from being ill and with her heart murmer it could have gotten worse :(
Barley may well have had a weak heart but nothing showed up :(
I hope you get the answers soon - I truly do.
 
How awful for you Angie. Thinking of you and the buns, and hoping you get answers soon.
 
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