What could the reasons be for a rabbit not eating caecals? UD now eating poops!

Artie is currently at the vets awaiting his bladder expressing (calcium needs to be emptied).
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=201315


For the last couple of weeks I've found a lot of caecals that he hasn't eaten and whilst he's been at the vets (2 days) they say he hasn't eaten his caecals at all, but they don't know why

Has anybody any experience of this and could suggest a few possible reasons as to why he's doing this? He's eating otherwise, last week he was very bright and alert, seemed really well, this is the only thing about him that seemed amiss :? It's been suggested he *could* have a spine problem but I don't understand why he wouldn't eat them off the floor if that was the case. I suppose he could find it uncomfortable bending that far if his bladder is like a rock but I'm sure FHB would have suggested that if that is likely to be the cause :?

I've got the best rabbit vet there is on the case but I feel a need to try and gain some understanding of reasons as well, if anyone can share any info I'd be very grateful.

I don't have any reasons for you why he's not eating them bbut is he eating everything else ok? Are you feeding him more pellets than you normally would to help get him well? Are you positive he's not eating them as he could be producing excess ones and it could then appear that he's not eating them.

Ideas in no particular order:

1, diet too rich so doesn't want them
2. Too fat to get at them
3. Spine or other pain preventing him wanting to reach them
4. Loss of sensation in that area so doesn't know they are there (this might accord with having bladder pain from sludge OR go hand in hand with build up of sludge which might also be in part due to loss of sensation meaning does not empty bladder properly when weeing)
5. on medication or something else which makes them taste/smell odd

Rhian33 said:

I don't have any reasons for you why he's not eating them bbut is he eating everything else ok? Are you feeding him more pellets than you normally would to help get him well? Are you positive he's not eating them as he could be producing excess ones and it could then appear that he's not eating them.

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No change in diet. He's eating really well otherwise. I believed he was well until crisis point on Sunday, so no extra pellets or anything changes to make him well.

I assumed while he was at home he was producing too many and just not eating the excess, FHB just stated to me that he's not eating ANY, this is what worries me.

parsnipbun said:

Ideas in no particular order:

1, diet too rich so doesn't want them
2. Too fat to get at them
3. Spine or other pain preventing him wanting to reach them
4. Loss of sensation in that area so doesn't know they are there (this might accord with having bladder pain from sludge OR go hand in hand with build up of sludge which might also be in part due to loss of sensation meaning does not empty bladder properly when weeing)
5. on medication or something else which makes them taste/smell odd

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1.Diet too rich does warrant looking at a bit - I have to give him a lot of veg for the fluids he needs but I might be over-doing it.
2. Definitely not too fat.
3. Spine pain has been suggested as a possibility, he seems flexible to me but warrants more monitoring.
5. No meds.

Number 4 sounds the most likely. I still don't get why he wouldn't eat them off the floor but I wonder, if he has his bladder sorted that it might help his other problem. When he had his cystotomy in April he was defintely either eating more caecals/not producing as many so that does tie in with the idea that he might do better when his bladder has the sludge reduced again. FHB did suggest to me that he might not be able to feel them so that's a little reassuring that it could improve, thank you.

Does he have a mucky bum at all? If he does it may suggest he can't get back there or feel the need to get back there making parsnipbun's suggestions of 3+4 (and 2 but you have ruled that out).

If he is clean then I would guess that it could be 1 or 4 with the explanation for 4 being that he doesn't have the sensation when he does them but knows he needs to clean himself there regularly.

Caecal dysbiosis caused by the discomfort from the bladder issues maybe :? So the caecals just dont taste 'right'.

Or maybe spinal issues, a disc problem causing nerve compression maybe so he is

1- not fully emptying his bladder leading to the build up of sludge and
2- He is not aware of having a full caecum :?

Rhian33 said:

Does he have a mucky bum at all?

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No, well, very occasionally.

I think I'd need to watch him closely to see if he seems to recognise they are there.

Jack's-Jane said:

Caecal dysbiosis caused by the discomfort from the bladder issues maybe :? So the caecals just dont taste 'right'.

Or maybe spinal issues, a disc problem causing nerve compression maybe so he is

1- not fully emptying his bladder leading to the build up of sludge and
2- He is not aware of having a full caecum :?

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I thought his caecals looked wetter last week but Frances said they looked normal today - perhaps they've started to improve as his treatment has taken effect.

I do wonder if maybe there is a spinal problem then, nothing was really obvious on the xray but FHB did suggest it - it was suggested last time that the build up of calcium was because he wasn't fully emptying his bladder, perhaps because of a bladder deformity but I guess equally a spine deformity could cause it. In which case if his spine has changed more recently the calcium build up he had in April wasn't 4 years of calcium but less, therefore why it has accumulated so much in 6 months - that would make a lot of sense.

He looks to me to have good movement but as Mr HB pointed out there's a lot of difference between being able to run up and downstairs and being able to touch your toes :?

Thanks everybody, it's given me some possible theories and answer. I hope it isn't his spine.

I googled "cecal dysbiosis" and this is what I found:

Hidden Health Problems
When a rabbit is ill, in pain, or is suffering from emotional stress, a typical physiological response is slowing of the normal peristaltic movements of the intestine. This results in cecal dysbiosis, with all the accompanying problems of runny stool, and possible inflammation of the intestinal lining (enteritis).
Some of the most common causes of intestinal slowdown (and hence, cecal dysbiosis) in rabbits include pain/stress due to

Dental Problems
Urinary tract disorders
Upper respiratory infections
"Head tilt"

This ties in perfectly with the run up to Artie not eating on Sunday. I didn't understand the warning signs but I do now. I'm guessing he wasn't/isn't eating them because they 'didn't taste right' or similar. Hopefully as the bladder problem is sorted out and his gut bacteria balance is sorted then *hopefully* both problems will be corrected

Also if I see excessive sloppy caecals in the future then it's a warning sign that he's having bladder problems.... before we get to the stage of him stopping eating.

My bunny only ever doesnt eat hers when she gets stressed... used to have a mucky bum all the time when she was bonded with Pickle (too dominant). She only gets mucky bum now if she is worried (noticed signs of fox in my garden of a night and usually I find her a bit messy the next morning)

fluffiebunnie said:

My bunny only ever doesnt eat hers when she gets stressed... used to have a mucky bum all the time when she was bonded with Pickle (too dominant). She only gets mucky bum now if she is worried (noticed signs of fox in my garden of a night and usually I find her a bit messy the next morning)

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Thanks. I've never made the connection with stress before, but I will now, it is a really good indicator there is something wrong

Thanks as ever for all the advice guys

I'm strongly believing that it was caecal dysbiosis as last night whilst I was cuddling Artie he sat up had a 'rummage' came back up chewing, he'd dropped a very small amount of caecal on the carpet, when he finished chewing he then picked that little bit up and ate it

He's on Baytril at the moment (amongst others) which could lead to poops tasting bad but he's eating them now and wasn't before.

It isn't spine as he reached perfectly well, obviously knew they were there. It is possible he finds it hard to get down there when his bladder is full of 'cement' but I'm strongly believing the overall stress and pain set of a disturbance in his digestion - I know the signs to look for if it happens again.

Further update

Artie has been home three nights now and hasn't left any caecals at all

It really does look like it was pain/stress related. It should a good indicator for the future if things aren't quite right, before he gets to crisis point