Some history and context:
Thunder is 1kg, about 18 months old and has been a very healthy and happy rabbit (he's one of 4 rabbits we have).
Last Friday, I went to the cage to see Thunder as I normally do and his head was rolling, eyes had horizontal nystagmus and he seemed a bit 'out of it'. My dad rushed him to the vets within minutes and the vet told me on the phone that he had E.cuniculi and I have two options: PTS or give him panacur and critical care. But she said it didn't look good.
I chose to treat him of course, and within 2 days he was standing up on both legs, cleaning himself, only a mild head tilt, strong legs, excellent appetite and pooing and peeing normally. No signs of weakness, tremors, incontinence.
A day after, his head tilt went 90 degrees and under. He now has difficulty landing on his feed and just continuously rolls until he gives up.
He's improved in every other way except the rolling and head tilt.
His horizontal nystagmus has gone! - is this a good sign?
Well, I don't know, because I've been researching neurobiology textbooks and they say that horizontal nystagmus is more often associated with inner ear infection and peripheral vestibular disorder. Although I know CNS related nystagmus can appear as horizontal, too.
But the fact that the nystagmus disappeared within days means that the brain adapted (but he still has head tilt and can't find his feet). And what I learned is that nystagmus related to brain pathology does not just go away like that (unless the inflammation is settling in the CNS).
Anyway, it makes me really concerned that the vet has missed an ear infection...
At first, I phoned the PDSA a few days ago after researching on here, and the nurse there said that why would I give him a NSAID when it's an infection? I told her to reduce inflammation and damage. But she would not listen and did not understand apparently... She said, it's an infection, you just need to treat that.
Today, I phoned the vet asking for antibiotics to cover the possibility of an ear infection. And I had the talk about 'quality of life' and PTS (they've not seen him since Friday). I said that many other people have had rabbits recover from this (even worse!) but it can take a while. I can't just give up after 6 days after an infection - that seems crazy. We look after him almost 20 hours a day and constantly checking on him, feeding, changing the towels, giving medicine, etc. I want to at least try!
It was the nurse that the message was passed onto again from the receptionist.. but I got a vet calling me an hour + from now and maybe they'll understand better. If not, I'll have to go private and to a rabbit specialist.
I am concerned about side effects from antibiotics, but I feel it might be worth the risk in this case since there is no definite test or diagnoses of the parasite causing the symptoms. I know the quinolone antibiotic baytril that is frequently prescribed can also cause nervous system damage (my achilles tendons and peripheral nerves were damaged from taking Cipro a long time ago). So that on top of a possible parasite CNS issue might make that issue worse IF it's not an ear infection.
It's tough decision tbh, but trying to weigh up the risks here.
I've done a lot of research and found a couple of natural compounds that are helpful in pasteurella infections in RABBITS, and I'm currently giving him them to lessen tissue damage and fight infection (started on day 1). They also make antibiotics more effective and reduce MIC.
- Allicin 50 mg/kg
- Yeast Beta Glucan - 50 mg/kg
But why are the vets wanting to be so hasty in wanting to put the rabbit to sleep? He has improved in many ways since last week already, it's just his balance and head tilt right now. I get the feeling that they don't even give rabbits in this position a chance to survive, like many people no here have done. So maybe they don't see recoveries. But I've certainly seen enough examples now of rabbits that were worse than mine and make decent recovery.
My parents are both COVID positive and I got sick for a day, too. So the issue here now is that I can't even take him to a private vet... at least until the 4th November.
Am I making the right decision?
Who is right here? Am I making the right decision in trying to get the vets to cover a bacterial infection and help treat inflammation? Am I right in giving him a chance? He gets almost 24 hour care. I heard it can get worse before it gets better, is this really true?
Thank you in advance for any responses...
References:
1. Peripheral or Central Vestibular Disease: Yes, It Matters
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11349&catId=34765&id=5328290
2. Alternative treatment of serious and mild Pasteurella multocida infection in New Zealand White rabbits
https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-014-0276-6
3. Anti-Inflammatory, Immunomodulatory, and AntioxidantActivities of Allicin, Norfloxacin, or Their Combination against Pasteurella multocida Infection in Male New Zealand Rabbits
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ltocida_Infection_in_Male_New_Zealand_Rabbits
Thunder is 1kg, about 18 months old and has been a very healthy and happy rabbit (he's one of 4 rabbits we have).
Last Friday, I went to the cage to see Thunder as I normally do and his head was rolling, eyes had horizontal nystagmus and he seemed a bit 'out of it'. My dad rushed him to the vets within minutes and the vet told me on the phone that he had E.cuniculi and I have two options: PTS or give him panacur and critical care. But she said it didn't look good.
I chose to treat him of course, and within 2 days he was standing up on both legs, cleaning himself, only a mild head tilt, strong legs, excellent appetite and pooing and peeing normally. No signs of weakness, tremors, incontinence.
A day after, his head tilt went 90 degrees and under. He now has difficulty landing on his feed and just continuously rolls until he gives up.
He's improved in every other way except the rolling and head tilt.
His horizontal nystagmus has gone! - is this a good sign?
Well, I don't know, because I've been researching neurobiology textbooks and they say that horizontal nystagmus is more often associated with inner ear infection and peripheral vestibular disorder. Although I know CNS related nystagmus can appear as horizontal, too.
But the fact that the nystagmus disappeared within days means that the brain adapted (but he still has head tilt and can't find his feet). And what I learned is that nystagmus related to brain pathology does not just go away like that (unless the inflammation is settling in the CNS).
[1]."Nystagmus of peripheral origin often disappears a few days after its appearance because of compensation by other balance systems (cerebellum, vision), but sometimes it can be induced by altering the head position."
Anyway, it makes me really concerned that the vet has missed an ear infection...
At first, I phoned the PDSA a few days ago after researching on here, and the nurse there said that why would I give him a NSAID when it's an infection? I told her to reduce inflammation and damage. But she would not listen and did not understand apparently... She said, it's an infection, you just need to treat that.
Today, I phoned the vet asking for antibiotics to cover the possibility of an ear infection. And I had the talk about 'quality of life' and PTS (they've not seen him since Friday). I said that many other people have had rabbits recover from this (even worse!) but it can take a while. I can't just give up after 6 days after an infection - that seems crazy. We look after him almost 20 hours a day and constantly checking on him, feeding, changing the towels, giving medicine, etc. I want to at least try!
It was the nurse that the message was passed onto again from the receptionist.. but I got a vet calling me an hour + from now and maybe they'll understand better. If not, I'll have to go private and to a rabbit specialist.
I am concerned about side effects from antibiotics, but I feel it might be worth the risk in this case since there is no definite test or diagnoses of the parasite causing the symptoms. I know the quinolone antibiotic baytril that is frequently prescribed can also cause nervous system damage (my achilles tendons and peripheral nerves were damaged from taking Cipro a long time ago). So that on top of a possible parasite CNS issue might make that issue worse IF it's not an ear infection.
It's tough decision tbh, but trying to weigh up the risks here.
I've done a lot of research and found a couple of natural compounds that are helpful in pasteurella infections in RABBITS, and I'm currently giving him them to lessen tissue damage and fight infection (started on day 1). They also make antibiotics more effective and reduce MIC.
- Allicin 50 mg/kg
- Yeast Beta Glucan - 50 mg/kg
But why are the vets wanting to be so hasty in wanting to put the rabbit to sleep? He has improved in many ways since last week already, it's just his balance and head tilt right now. I get the feeling that they don't even give rabbits in this position a chance to survive, like many people no here have done. So maybe they don't see recoveries. But I've certainly seen enough examples now of rabbits that were worse than mine and make decent recovery.
My parents are both COVID positive and I got sick for a day, too. So the issue here now is that I can't even take him to a private vet... at least until the 4th November.
Am I making the right decision?
Who is right here? Am I making the right decision in trying to get the vets to cover a bacterial infection and help treat inflammation? Am I right in giving him a chance? He gets almost 24 hour care. I heard it can get worse before it gets better, is this really true?
Thank you in advance for any responses...
References:
1. Peripheral or Central Vestibular Disease: Yes, It Matters
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11349&catId=34765&id=5328290
2. Alternative treatment of serious and mild Pasteurella multocida infection in New Zealand White rabbits
https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-014-0276-6
3. Anti-Inflammatory, Immunomodulatory, and AntioxidantActivities of Allicin, Norfloxacin, or Their Combination against Pasteurella multocida Infection in Male New Zealand Rabbits
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ltocida_Infection_in_Male_New_Zealand_Rabbits