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Thread: Stasis prone bunnies

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by loobers25 View Post
    I was wondering if metacam has a artifical sweeter because of the sweet taste?

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    As far as I know, yes it does

    These are the other ingredients:

    Sodium benzoate Sorbitol, liquid Glycerol Saccharin sodium Xylitol

    Sodium dihydrogen phosphate dihydrate Silica, colloidal anhydrous Hydroxyethylcellulose
    Citric acid

    Honey aroma Water, purified



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumps_ View Post
    Thank you for these links JJ
    I was aware of these possible effects of a long term high dose of saccharin in humans.
    I would like to make the following points from the press & forum articles.
    Saccharin is thought to
    a) impact on glucose absorption from the diet.
    b) associated with low insuklin levels
    c) associated with low GPI
    Other articles refer to a possible role in the developement of type 2 diabetes.

    The point I would like to make is that the normal modern human diet has high levels of sucrose/ corn syrup = glucose + fructose which are seperated into the component parts by ptyalin in saliva. The fructose component has its own adverse effects. Artificial sweeteners are extensively used in "Diet" fizzy drinks & as an alternative for diabetics.
    Rabbit diet is totally different & very low in sugars
    Rabbits in stasis have either no food intake or a very low food intake.

    Infacol is being given for a very short time, & in low dose.
    There are 2 problems to explain in stasis rabbits.
    a) How can saccharin be possibly absorbed from a slow GI tract in time to impact on the metabolic system in a complex way?
    b) Why do rabbits in stasis who have had no drugs what so ever, routinely have blood glucose levels above the norm?

    Humans with very painful conditions eg obstructed GI tract often have raised glucose levels which return to normal when the underlying condition is treated, & on subsequent Ix are not prediabetic. This is even more apparent in people with severe multiple injuries where blood glucose levels may even reach 20.00. In both cases the cause is activation of the cortisol system from physiological & pain stress.

    Rabbit cortisol system activates far more readily than the human system, & can not only cause high blood glucose levels, but also cause severe slow down of the GI tract.
    I think that we would agree that one of the commonest causes of stasis in rabbits is an underlying painful condition, & indeed we owe much to your work several years ago, advocating for pain relief in rabbits in stasis. This had a marked effect on improving recovery rates at the time.

    I am grateful for the information but IMO it refers to a different situation from rabbits in stasis. The information does not show us the original research done, which is essential to appraise the conclusions.
    Indeed all the paediatric meds I can think of, including ABx contain artificial sweeteners. I do not think that these would be considered suspect although given more frequently & for a longer period than infacol.

    Bloat is a life threatening condition for rabbits & necessitates very rapid treatment indeed. Time to get to the vet has to be taken into consideration.
    For all these reasons, I personally would not withold infacol in this situation.
    (I once discussed using activated charcoal to absorb the gas for bloat with gastric distention with Marie Kubiac. She said that we couldn't get enough into the rabbit to work. That is the only alternative I know of for this situation)


    Thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed reply thumps

    There will always be people who have found Infacol to be useful and those that don't. I agree, that it doesn't spike the glucose level and has done much to save rabbits' lives.

    And importantly, I don't know of a single rabbit who has been made more poorly by administering Infacol!

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by loobers25 View Post
    We been to the vets too today, hopefully an xray will give you some long awaited answers! Xx

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    Thanks for messaging the additional info from JC, it is what my Vet has said too Sincere apologies that your thread has been somewhat bombarded with debate. Please dont let that stop you from posting. I hope that Toby is doing OK at the moment.

    You have a great Rabbit Savvy Vet and you, yourself are such a dedicated care giver to all of your Rabbits. It is so stressful when we are faced with Bunnies with ongoing health problems and I know how draining it can be emotionally when we seen to be going from one problem to another.
    I AM NOW POSTING AS 'InspectorMorse' BECAUSE A TECHNICAL PROBLEM HAS LOCKED ME OUT OF MY 'Jack's-Jane' ACCOUNT ON SOME DEVICES !!

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    That's ok, debate away! I just thought I would be careful quoting him on public forum because I really do respect him and his knowledge. I'm so lucky to have him as a vet . I just wish they're was a bit more research into Infacol, gripe water and even papain. Maybe we could spark that?
    Just thinking aloud here...

    Do you think readigrass can cause gas? My mum was told to avoid green hays as will cause gas to prone bunnies.

    Thoughts? Xx

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    Quote Originally Posted by loobers25 View Post
    That's ok, debate away! I just thought I would be careful quoting him on public forum because I really do respect him and his knowledge. I'm so lucky to have him as a vet . I just wish they're was a bit more research into Infacol, gripe water and even papain. Maybe we could spark that?
    Just thinking aloud here...

    Do you think readigrass can cause gas? My mum was told to avoid green hays as will cause gas to prone bunnies.

    Thoughts? Xx

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    It's just a personal feeling, but I think that the impact of different foods will vary from rabbit to rabbit even when they are prone to Stasis. None of my Rexes past and present are great fans of Readigrass, which I find surprising.

    If I were you I would monitor Toby's reaction to the different foods you have for him. I think you've already noted that pellets seemed to be a trigger. I also think that if you find high fibre foods that don't have a detrimental effect on him and that he enjoys eating, I would stick with them. If Toby likes Readigrass and tolerates it well, I would not hesitate in giving it to him.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omi View Post
    It's just a personal feeling, but I think that the impact of different foods will vary from rabbit to rabbit even when they are prone to Stasis. None of my Rexes past and present are great fans of Readigrass, which I find surprising.

    If I were you I would monitor Toby's reaction to the different foods you have for him. I think you've already noted that pellets seemed to be a trigger. I also think that if you find high fibre foods that don't have a detrimental effect on him and that he enjoys eating, I would stick with them. If Toby likes Readigrass and tolerates it well, I would not hesitate in giving it to him.
    I agree with this. I have fed Readigrass to several Rabbits with no problems at all, but I have also had a few Rabbits who reacted really badly to it. I honestly believe that it is a case of establishing what works best for the individual Rabbit. It took almost 18 months to get Lord H onto a diet that did not result in daily profuse diarrhoea/gas. It was so, so stressful and at times I felt a complete failure as everything I tried seemed to cause issues. But eventually we established that he cannot tolerate any form of pelleted/muesli feed. Even half an SS pellet or Profibre Pellets would upset him badly.

    As Omi has suggested, try and identify food types that do not cause him problems and as boring as it may seem just stick with them. Also, as all hays/dried grasses will vary in their exact nutrient content throughout the year you may find that a certain batch of Readigrass or a particular hay is richer depending on the time of year it was harvested.

    How lucky Toby is to have such a devoted carer
    I AM NOW POSTING AS 'InspectorMorse' BECAUSE A TECHNICAL PROBLEM HAS LOCKED ME OUT OF MY 'Jack's-Jane' ACCOUNT ON SOME DEVICES !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by loobers25 View Post
    We been to the vets too today, hopefully an xray will give you some long awaited answers! Xx

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    Thank you for Private Messaging me Loobers

    As I said, everyone has a different opinion, but a lot of vets (including Frances Harcourt Brown!) will say 'do't knock it if it works and can do no harm'

    In fact my own has said that she would recommend it to be used, so I am happy with that
    Last edited by MightyMax; 28-03-2018 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thumps_ View Post
    Hi loobers25
    (I agree that the patch on the neck looks like a reaction to immunisation or even another type of injection.)
    1st Many of us know how incredibly stressful it is for the carer to have a stasis prone rabbit.

    Have you looked at a sticky on RU diet? "Diet for stasis prone rabbits"? It will give you a range of totally different diagnoses helped by diet, & some idea of the preferred forage, which can change over time.
    Sometimes it can take a very long time to understand why a rabbit is stasis prone even with care from top exotics vets, but the frequency & severity of stasis can be reduced.
    The idea is to increase the fibre content of the diet to stimulate maximum GI motility, so the rabbit is more able to withstand minor dips in motility which would have previously caused stasis.
    To add to the thread -
    Donampt's Alvin - the rabbit with "attitude" was an incredibly gas prone rabbit. She noticed that just before stasis, he drank less water & could avert full stasis with a combination of diet & syringe feeding him water at the 1st sign he was deteriorating.The final diagnosis was that he was deaf!! Not so easy to detect, because rabbits can sense so much from vibration through the floor. Eventually realised when he did not respond to a very loud noise in the air & nothing hit the ground! (smaller "bitty poops" can sometimes be an indicator of dehydration.

    Loss of a partner rabbit can make the survivor feel very insecure from predators depending on their basic temperament when a major sense is compromised - stress - but they may not appear to be nervous from our viewpoint.
    It can be helped by giving them "rabbit runs" access behind furniture eg move the sofa away from the wall. Distance should be just greater than the span of his whiskers -(The way rabbits know they have a free run & won't get stuck)
    They also like "hidey holes" a place where they can see/feel what is going on with multiple exits, from an enclosed place (material is good because they can "nose it up" to do a runner to the next space).
    By & large rabbits feel vulnerable in an open space without plenty of protective company which can be us. They can hear the predatory "night life" - cats or urban foxes through locked double glazing!

    Pretty Lupin's Nino was another bloat prone rabbit. Final diagnosis - congenital deformity of shoulders - painful - but there was no indication whatsoever of any problems hopping - he was highly mobile. It was detected by chance on X-R
    The partner rabbit - Poppy - was another bloat rabbit with severe behaviour disorder which even defied Anne MacBride!! When Nino passed, (from heart attack - not bloat) Poppy stopped getting bloat - she was a rare rabbit who preferred no partner, but there were no indictions of poor bonding.

    Both rabbits were on a pellet free diet - hay & forage, but the hay was meadow hay with a good range of different grasses & plants (Some farmers sell it in bags) i know several dysbiosis prone rabbits only controlled by a pellet free diet.
    Outdoor rabbits definately don't need any pellets. There is difference of opinion about whether indoor rabbits can get sufficient vit D3 without exposure to direct sunlight. Vit D3 can be stored so a sunny patch through open windows in summer can provide enough exposureto UVB

    Plenty of excercise - a good run round is also a great help for GI motility especially for bloat prone rabbits. It sounds tough on them, but can avert fully developed bloat.

    My personal experience is that many stasis prone rabbits do indeed prefer forage which helps them. I could tell more about Thumper's GI state by what he chose to eat than waiting for the poop to appear! I have no idea of herbal medicine. I'd see what Thumper preferred - look up the medicinal properties of that plant & try to work it out. eg willow leaves & small twigs have NSAI in them - rabbit may be going for pain relief if willow leaves are preferred.

    Small twigs won't gve any problems with blockage at all. ( a log may do so because of the dense fibrous layer under the bark)
    Fresh forage is best because of the high water content. (Wild rabbits don't drink water relying on fresh plants, roots, & live twigs, perhaps dew, for all their requirements) When GI motility slows down (less through put) our rabbits will cut back on water in preference to fibre needed to maintain GI motility - hence Alvin's problem.
    None of us can do all of this all the time. Even fresh foragers have to rely on dried forage to get through winter!!
    We are very restricted in rented accommodation. We can only do our best.
    i hope this essay gives you a few ideas to work on. Some not possible in your situation. Some won't help. But perhaps they open a few doors for you to adapt to your own situation.

    ps Dill is also a great help with gas. The leaves aren't supposed to help but I find that they can. Dill seed is the active ingredient in gripe water & normalises gut contractions (stops painful contractions (colick). Infacol breaks up foam.
    (The problem with gas in the gut is that it makes a foam of bubbles which can't be propelled forward. Maybe a combination of infacol & gripe water would be more effective than either alone???
    I would just like to update with a few observations I have seen with Toby

    I moved furniture around to give him multiple exit ways instead of a big open space. I moved his big hay dog bed from against the wall and now he sleeps in the corner behind. When he's excited he does laps round and round. So thank you for that advice, he definitely feels much safer.

    Toby has 1 fibre stick a day, half in the morning and half in the evening. He has nature pellets - he may get one a day if i think he's particularly hungry for the vitamins and minerals. I no longer have to metacam soak the pellets as he takes it from the syringe and funnily enough he will eat his heart tablet raw!

    Taking the advice for a more natural high fibre diet I have changed Tobys diet:

    His daily diet includes no bowl.
    Big pile of hay with forage.
    He has:
    Apple leafs
    Pear leafs
    Apple twigs
    Pear twigs
    Birch leafs
    Plantain
    All scattered in hay

    Then to keep it exciting I will add one or two of the following:
    Sunflowers
    Nettle
    Rose
    Occasional dandelion
    Rasperry leafs

    For treats he has:
    Chicory root
    Dandelion root

    He gets unlimited hay, every time I go to see him I top up with hay. He really enjoys his timothy hay.co.uk. He really stuffs his face with it, it's very cute. He also has meadow hay and burgess grass hay.

    Obviously I don't want to jinx anything as I know it can take weeks to recover from stasis but so far I would say his hay consumption has improved drastically. His poos are large and golden in colour. I see him eating hay more than I ever have.

    I used to find nibbles out of his pine ikea bed. That's has stopped.

    I have taken willow away as I wasn't sure if his heart medication where some sort of blood thinners. Not that he is keen on it any way, he's loving apple twigs at the moment!

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    Last edited by loobers25; 08-04-2018 at 07:15 PM.

  9. #109
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    It's interesting isn't it that just by making small changes, you can make rabbits feel much more secure. I've noticed how much more relaxed Tethra is, now that he has Tui. He flops out when sleeping and it's visibly obvious that he's more deeply asleep. I suppose two sets of eyes and ears are better than one.

    Toby's diet sounds excellent now. It's wonderful that he's eating so much more hay. You must be feeling much less concerned about him. Apple sticks are going down very well here too atm. Are you feeding Maple the same diet?

  10. #110
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    I am really pleased to hear that you have managed to find a diet that is improving things for Toby It sounds as though he is doing really well at the moment
    I AM NOW POSTING AS 'InspectorMorse' BECAUSE A TECHNICAL PROBLEM HAS LOCKED ME OUT OF MY 'Jack's-Jane' ACCOUNT ON SOME DEVICES !!

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