Nasty Rabbit

Hello,

I'm reaching a dilemma at the moment, back in August last year i purchase 2 rabbits from our local pet store (2 females), they use to play a lot and get along as they were brought together. Since Christmas their rabbit nature was kicking in and things got a bit violent between them so they had to be separated into different cages until we could get them sprayed just before the new year. Since then, one of them has been extremely nasty to the other trying to cause fights and bite etc while the other is being friendly. The cages have always been close (like roughly A4 sheet of paper close) but no matter what i do (like let them out in another room together) the other one just eventually starts fighting with the nicer rabbit.

She grunts and attacks me and my other half when we try to fuss her or get her into cage, most recent i tried to pick her up from her cage after a brief fuss and i got a nasty bite in return.

I was hoping at some point i could get them back together and invest in a bigger cage for them but at the moment it appears I'm going to have to consider getting her re homed, before i go down this stage (which is my last resort), does any body have any advice to help this little demon turn nice again.?

Excuse any bad grammar or spelling.

Thank you

Hello, welcome to the forum :wave:

You've done exactly the right thing to have the bunnies spayed. You may have to go right back to the beginning again and try and re-bond them from scratch, because their previous fighting probably means they are quite wary in each others' company. You need to do the bonding in a neutral place, where neither rabbit has ever been, and supervise them carefully until you're confident that they are comfortable together and are grooming/eating/sitting together etc.

There are different methods to bond, and different people (and bunnies) will find that different ways work best. Some people prefer a small area, some use a larger area, some people like to put the rabbits together and keep them together until they are bonded, and others use the 'dating' method where the rabbits go together for longer and longer periods until they are bonded. The key is always that the area and everything in it is neutral, and that the rabbits are supervised at all times whilst the bond is in progress.

What sort/size cages do your bunnies live in? You mentioned that one of the rabbits acts a bit aggressively with you as well as with her friend. This can sometimes be caused by not having enough space, so it might be worth extending the space that each one has when 'caged' (until they are bonded and can share a larger area), so that they can be more active when they aren't being let out. Toys and tunnels etc can also help.

She isn't nasty. You were obviously not told when you got your rabbits that two females are probably the worst combination. What you should have done was have them spayed BEFORE the aggression started, as it is often too late afterwards - it is unlikely you'll be able to rebond them now.
As for the aggression towards you, simply don't pick her up. Most rabbits hate being lifted off the floor as they are prey animals - it terrifies them so they will bite and kick until you put them down. Just leave her for a while, don't even try to stroke her - just try giving her food by hand, so she comes to associate your hand with nice things. Just sit in her run with her and ignore her - or just talk. She will get used to you eventually, it just takes time.

AnnieElms said:

Hello, welcome to the forum :wave:

You've done exactly the right thing to have the bunnies spayed. You may have to go right back to the beginning again and try and re-bond them from scratch, because their previous fighting probably means they are quite wary in each others' company. You need to do the bonding in a neutral place, where neither rabbit has ever been, and supervise them carefully until you're confident that they are comfortable together and are grooming/eating/sitting together etc.

There are different methods to bond, and different people (and bunnies) will find that different ways work best. Some people prefer a small area, some use a larger area, some people like to put the rabbits together and keep them together until they are bonded, and others use the 'dating' method where the rabbits go together for longer and longer periods until they are bonded. The key is always that the area and everything in it is neutral, and that the rabbits are supervised at all times whilst the bond is in progress.

What sort/size cages do your bunnies live in? You mentioned that one of the rabbits acts a bit aggressively with you as well as with her friend. This can sometimes be caused by not having enough space, so it might be worth extending the space that each one has when 'caged' (until they are bonded and can share a larger area), so that they can be more active when they aren't being let out. Toys and tunnels etc can also help.

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We have tried the neutral area and hoping for the best, even though initially they just have a sniff and move on then eventually it gets bit nasty. The main problem i have is that i can't pick her up with her going into attack mode.

Their cages, well the nicer one is in a newer cage which is like an indoor cage similar to this http://nt.petplanet.co.uk/images/product_images/extra_images/62381/20_Krolik_Cage_Red.jpg . the other one is in a smaller version to it. We haven't lined the cages out with tunnels etc as we're not sure that the bunnies need to play with but we have given them cardboard tubes to chew and plastic houses to rest in but they are out daily for 15-30 min each at moment. I was hoping to expand upon their cages once i can bond them again as i have seen some people used big cage pens and a moderately small wooden house for them to hide in.

Toilet training is another issue we're having but that's another task.

ripminnie said:

She isn't nasty. You were obviously not told when you got your rabbits that two females are probably the worst combination. What you should have done was have them spayed BEFORE the aggression started, as it is often too late afterwards - it is unlikely you'll be able to rebond them now.
As for the aggression towards you, simply don't pick her up. Most rabbits hate being lifted off the floor as they are prey animals - it terrifies them so they will bite and kick until you put them down. Just leave her for a while, don't even try to stroke her - just try giving her food by hand, so she comes to associate your hand with nice things. Just sit in her run with her and ignore her - or just talk. She will get used to you eventually, it just takes time.

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Hello,

No i wasn't told about that but that's what i get from Pets at Home... at the time the aggression started it was few days before Christmas and we couldn't get them in until before the new year.
I try not to pick her anymore but the other bunny don't mind as much we only pick them up to get them in and out of cage.
I was considering buying a bigger cage for them both and doing a better job supplying them with things to do in hopes it might improve her behavior. These are my first ever rabbits as i have normally have had dogs and hamsters, we do have 2 chinchillas in the same room but on opposite sides but they no hassle for the rabbits.

It does seem like you got poor advice in hype beginning, but it's great you're now seeking out advice as to how best to rectify the situation.

It's hard to see how big that cage is exactly, but it doesn't look that big, maybe a metre long at most? I think space/ boredom could well be a large part of your problem and I say that having previously homed a rabbit who was 'aggressive' but she had lots of space and things to do where as well as bunny company and she never once showed any sign of nastiness.

If you look on the Rabbit Welfare Association and fund website there is lots of information on housing. Puppy pens can be bought cheaply and used to extend the living area.

midori1999 said:

It does seem like you got poor advice in hype beginning, but it's great you're now seeking out advice as to how best to rectify the situation.

It's hard to see how big that cage is exactly, but it doesn't look that big, maybe a metre long at most? I think space/ boredom could well be a large part of your problem and I say that having previously homed a rabbit who was 'aggressive' but she had lots of space and things to do where as well as bunny company and she never once showed any sign of nastiness.

If you look on the Rabbit Welfare Association and fund website there is lots of information on housing. Puppy pens can be bought cheaply and used to extend the living area.

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Absolutely this ^^

I agree that the cages won't be helping matters as they are very small and boredom will set in. It's a great shame that the pet shop gave you poor advice . I would consider extending their space by using puppy panels as midori suggests (something like this http://www.petplanet.co.uk/category.asp?dept_id=774) and using the cages as bases or litter trays - fill them with a layer of newspaper and a nice thick layer of hay and they can munch whilst they poo

I would also consider telling Pets at Home what has happened. Don't take your bunnies back there of course, but just tell them what a mess has happened due to them selling a pair of unspayed rabbits - they think they are doing the right thing by selling pairs, but too often don't hear about what happens a little further down the line when these rabbits develop hormones . I think if everyone who has had issues with pet shop rabbits tells the pet shop then they might eventually get the message that they need to improve their practice (not sell them, or if they must at least sell neutered pairs!).

There is some good information here about bunny bonding: http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/pdfs/BunnyBuddiedwebpage.pdf

Unfortunately you've been let down by pets at home in regards to advice. It's fantastic that both girls are now spayed. I agree though with not attempting to pick the 'nasty' bunny up - they really don't like being picked up as they're a prey species and feel unsafe when not on the ground.

Bonding can be very hard even for experienced owners or people with previous bonding experience. Even more so when you have 2 bunnies who've previously fought. What I would recommend would be to contact your local bunny rescues (http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/centres.asp) to see if they will bond your buns for you for a donation to the rescue. Many rescues will do this if they can fit you into their bonding schedule, although it may take a month or two before they can fit you in. The problem is that nowhere is likely to be neutral - one or the other may well have been there before, and even if not then they still have you to fight over. You are their property too, and so in difficult situations like this it's often better to remove you entirely.

When you get them back you'll need an entirely neutral area - so it'd be a great time to implement the new accommodation. The RWAF recommends a minimum of a 6 x 2 x 2 area with a permanently attached 8 x 4 x 2 run, so the bigger the better. For indoor bunnies they don't need the separate 6ft area as it's generally to provide shelter from the rain etc. You could have a slightly different shape than a rectanglular 8 x 4 area, as long as it equates to around the same space of 32ft. Long, thin accommodation is fine or L shaped or whatever you can provide. Something like this would be great - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ellie-Bo-Mo...UTF8&qid=1401892866&sr=8-3&keywords=puppy+pen, especially with the extension bit. If you buy that plus the extension you could use it to make two smaller pens for now: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ellie-Bo-Mo...UTF8&qid=1401892866&sr=8-2&keywords=puppy+pen, then you can join it all up once they're bonded together. I prefer that style of cage because it's higher meaning they hopefully shouldn't be able to jump out, it's sturdier, it looks nicer in the home and it also has smaller bar spacing so it reduces the risk of bunnies getting their head stuck if they run at it. But any suitably sized accommodation would be fine, including hutches.

You'll have to be very careful about bringing them home once bonded - after a while they'll settle down, but at the beginning any smell of each other that remains will cause a problem. You'll also need to give them a smaller space to start with and slowly extend it to the full amount. Vinegar is a great way to get rid of all smells, and there are ways to neutralise carpet, walls, sofas etc.

Don't give up on your bun - she's probably lonely and confused. She's also likely to be bored in a cage that size, so it would be great if you could get 2 sets of metal puppy pens to provide a larger space for them. That way you don't need to pick her up to give her exercise so she won't associate your hands with being picked up. It should really help.

If the rescue cannot get your buns to bond (which is slightly unlikely - they're often used to difficult bonding), they may be happy to put you on the waiting list to rehome one of your buns. When they have space to take her in you could adopt a male from them. Depending on the ratio of males to females they may be happy to do it now, but I would definitely give them a chance to bond together first. Very few bunnies are actually nasty, it's just that they are lonely/bored/poorly but have no effective way to communicate this unlike cats or dogs.

Hope you manage to sort something out, good luck!

It might be they will never go back together, particularly is there is still a lot of aggression after you've had them spayed.

My advice would be to get in touch with a local rescue that sees a lot of rabbits or specialises in them. They might be able to help you with bonding them back together, but longer term the best option for you and them may be to rehome one and adopt a neutered male to go with the other. A rescue might be willing to help with the 'swap'.

It's likely that much of the aggression towards you is down to stress/frustration. Having to have two cages/separate exercise times means less exercise/space for each rabbit, which increases stress and being able to see each other and not attack may also be making them more stressed out. A fold out puppy pen is a good way to increase cage space/create an exercise area.

I'd suggest washing your hands between handling rabbits. You may find the attack on you is just because your hands smell like the other rabbit. They can get so worked up they attack before noticing the difference.

It's a tough decision, and you've obviously done your best to try and fix it, but sometimes you just can't get around individual rabbits that take a dislike to each other.

i'm taking on board everything everyone is saying, so thank you very much for the advice.
I'm considering the idea of buying a pen and using this current cages as like a littler tray for them, although £80 for a pen seems bit high but i appreciate the fact it was just an example, does anyone recommend one that's pretty cheap to start off with?. At the moment the "nasty" bunny I'm not picking her up or anything and let her run around as much as possible even though she bites the carpet and tries to bring it up. she sniffs the gentle bunny (through the cage) but I've made sure no attacking kicks off.

I'm tempted to buy a hutch for outdoors so my space isn't limited inside house, does anybody worry about foxes/cats etc trying to get to them?

Pets at home have never been the best for advice, my rabbits were originally boys till snip day....

You should be able to beat £70 - most of them are in sections too so you can attach to the cage corners and use the cage as an extra side to make it bigger. These guys do quite a range: http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/runs_fencing/73280

That type of run is really only suitable for inside or suppervised outdoors as they aren't predator proof. You can buy sturdy hutch/run combos or even use a shed outdoors. You do have to take precaution eg bolts on door, mesh or paving underneath etc.

Where abouts are you?

Hello, i'm based in the Mansfield area in Nottinghamshire.

Thank you for the link. Those prices are more appealing for my tight budget

I must've been extremely lucky, I have 2 Dutch does and they dote on one another. They're always grooming each other.



This is an old photo from last summer, I've had them on a diet as they were getting a little chunky. I've also stopped them from pinching everyone else's food by restricting access to it when they're out of their hutch.

my tabby rabbit was nasty, until she was spayed and had such a bad time. we were bonded over our shared wish that she should be better and it was lovely that she trusted me even though she was scared of the vet.

keep trying. tabby won't be held but she loves, really loves, to have her shoulders massaged!

Out of all the bonds I've had, two females were actually the best, and I've had a number of pairs of them.

If this happened after the spay and she became aggressive to you as well, it might be post surgery pain. Scar tissue inside, a stitch that won't dissolve etc. I had some post female surgery issue myself and believe me, it left me quite the b*tch!

on the odd chance anathesia can have lasting affects on behavior, not common, but it can happen.

Not sure how one can diagnose if it's adhesions, pain, etc in an animal that cant tell us where or how it hurts, but spayed females don't usually go nasty without any reason. Any significant change in temperment and behavior is caused by something.