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VIP and SUPER VIP buns ar P@H!!!!!! *worse than ever!*
- Thread starter shell1805
- Start date
http://gradworks.umi.com/34/64/3464485.html
read the first paragraph of abstract.
Can I ask please can people join the facebook group, especially if u also recieved the standard pah letter so u can also post to prove it is official
read the first paragraph of abstract.
Can I ask please can people join the facebook group, especially if u also recieved the standard pah letter so u can also post to prove it is official
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
Yes, I had seen that. There are some about the increased incidence of Adrenal Hyperplasia too, but I cant find the link now. Will keep looking
RosRWAF
Warren Scout
Thanks for pointing out this thread one face book I have found it very interesting reading, and also some what confusing. That so many adults can not have an opinion of their own and seem to bow down to some on the thread and then even appologies when they bite back!!
How do you know studies haven't been done in Spain it may not be the witchcraft you seem to think it is! As it would appear you have no facts at all, apart from a letter that doesn't say much at all.
Bunny Buddy
Wise Old Thumper
I find this post as confusing as you find the thread, especially the bit in bold. Surely it's people's capacity to think for themselves that makes them question the ethics of this in the first place :? Although there are varying degrees of horror regarding the production/sale of these rabbits, a couple of things I think the vast majority are in agreement in is that:
1. The long journey from Spain to shop is too much for rabbits, especially ones so young, however carefully it is done.
2. They are being neutered too young - regardless of how the procedure is being carried out.
:shock: Are things seriously this bad with buns in the UK? It's like cats in Australia and dogs in America.
Unfortunately, yes, the general issues here are the ones common in all countries. On the surface everything seems fine - for instance P@H have the best kept rabbits I've ever seen in a pet shop, and give out better advice and have better housing than most too - but as with most if not all massive pet shop chains, once you look a bit closer you see they are not quite as good as you thought. Most of the small animals bred for pet shops are either from mass breeders or back yard breeders. But the new issues with these SVIP rabbits are something not encountered before, hence the outrage.
The UK does tend (and I mean this in a very generalised way) to have better animal welfare laws/ the charities have a bit more power than many other parts of the world, and unfortunately Spain in particular doesnt have the best reputation for animal welfare, and it seems P@H have imported their ethics along with their rabbits in this case.
There is one thing I wish we had over here that America in particular seems to be pushing, which is that there seems to be a strong drive over there to get the message out to have pets spayed and neutered as routine. Perhaps this is due to a bigger problem of breeding out there, I dont know, but the celebs seem to be saying it a fair amount, and it would be nice if we were pushing it as much. For instance, most of the female dogs I know arent spayed, their owners arent going to breed them but I've found that it just isnt the norm to have it done, people dont see it as necessary which is a shame. A higher percentage of cats tend to be though I think, as otherwise toms will roam and the girls get FIV/pregnant quickly.
killabuni
Young Bun
I've read this whole thread and it's taken me a few hours as I read slow, but I've got there
Let me get my head round this as I don't understand. They're buying kits from someone who is breeding for them, to then neuter the kits they get at a ridiculously young age (that repulsed me too, totally irresponsible), to think they're promoting good ownership by people buying a neutered animal from them, and then buy a load more kits with that money and go through the process again :? Am I the only one who finds that just a little bit ridiculous? That's not exactly making a difference because the rabbits are still being bred to produce THESE kits!
These stores should sell their very last animal and not buy any more, because if they really want people to take on neutered, vaccinated and micro-chipped, healthy rabbits, they need to point them in the direction of a reputable rescue instead!
I was happy when first coming to this thread, now, like others, not so happy
Let me get my head round this as I don't understand. They're buying kits from someone who is breeding for them, to then neuter the kits they get at a ridiculously young age (that repulsed me too, totally irresponsible), to think they're promoting good ownership by people buying a neutered animal from them, and then buy a load more kits with that money and go through the process again :? Am I the only one who finds that just a little bit ridiculous? That's not exactly making a difference because the rabbits are still being bred to produce THESE kits!
These stores should sell their very last animal and not buy any more, because if they really want people to take on neutered, vaccinated and micro-chipped, healthy rabbits, they need to point them in the direction of a reputable rescue instead!
I was happy when first coming to this thread, now, like others, not so happy
Disney
Alpha Buck
I have no problem at all with registered breeders, but I'll never understand 'just one litter' or puppy/kitten/bunny farms. Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
Still no reply to my previous email
Have sent another one with a few more questions I hope they are able to answer in a full and satisfactory way:
Further to my previous enquiry earlier this week, for which I still await a reply, I have a few more questions I would like answered with regards to the 'SVIP Rabbits' now on sale in some branches of P@H
Given that neutering a Rabbit at 4-5 weeks is not a recognised 'best practice' within the UK what reassurances can you give that sufficient research has been carried out to insure that prepubescent gonadectomy does not cause the problems in Rabbits that it has been shown to do in other species. I particularly refer to issues such as adrenal hyperplasia and osteoporosis. There is much documented in Veterinary papers about these issues, but it would appear that little if any research has been carried out specifically relating to Rabbits ??
Also, as I understand it the development of the brain is closely linked to the presence of circulating sex steroid hormones and again in other species it has been shown that prepubescent gonadectomy increases the risk of neurodevelopemental disorders and noise associated anxiety disorders.
Can you give any assurances that the SVIP Rabbits will NOT suffer any detrimental longterm effects from being neutered at 4-5 weeks and if so is there documented proof available to the general public ?
Finally, if a Doe is neutered at 4-5 weeks is it a full ovariohysterectomy or just removal of the ovaries. If the latter then as far as I am aware there is no proof that this will protect a Doe from developing Uterine Cancer in adulthood. Uterine Cancer being very common and one of the main reasons for having a Doe spayed in the first place.
I hope that both my questions in my previous correspondence and the ones included here will be answered at the earliest opportunity
Thank You
Have sent another one with a few more questions I hope they are able to answer in a full and satisfactory way:
Further to my previous enquiry earlier this week, for which I still await a reply, I have a few more questions I would like answered with regards to the 'SVIP Rabbits' now on sale in some branches of P@H
Given that neutering a Rabbit at 4-5 weeks is not a recognised 'best practice' within the UK what reassurances can you give that sufficient research has been carried out to insure that prepubescent gonadectomy does not cause the problems in Rabbits that it has been shown to do in other species. I particularly refer to issues such as adrenal hyperplasia and osteoporosis. There is much documented in Veterinary papers about these issues, but it would appear that little if any research has been carried out specifically relating to Rabbits ??
Also, as I understand it the development of the brain is closely linked to the presence of circulating sex steroid hormones and again in other species it has been shown that prepubescent gonadectomy increases the risk of neurodevelopemental disorders and noise associated anxiety disorders.
Can you give any assurances that the SVIP Rabbits will NOT suffer any detrimental longterm effects from being neutered at 4-5 weeks and if so is there documented proof available to the general public ?
Finally, if a Doe is neutered at 4-5 weeks is it a full ovariohysterectomy or just removal of the ovaries. If the latter then as far as I am aware there is no proof that this will protect a Doe from developing Uterine Cancer in adulthood. Uterine Cancer being very common and one of the main reasons for having a Doe spayed in the first place.
I hope that both my questions in my previous correspondence and the ones included here will be answered at the earliest opportunity
Thank You
Jenova
Wise Old Thumper
If you could PM it to me that would be brilliant. :wave:
If P@H have emailed you the information and it doesnt say not to reproduce it then they dont mind it being public knowledge :wave: Whats in it that you dont think everyone should see?
If you dont want to post it though could you PM it to me?
sparklefairy
Wise Old Thumper
i aggree with this.
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
I too have had the email. P@H are reading this thread and as they have not requested that I do not post the latest reply here it is
Many thanks for your patience whilst I gained further information for you.
I have contacted our Head of Pets who is a Qualified Veterinary Surgeon to come back with the answers you have requested.
I have detailed below each question and our answer underneath;
1- Are both Bucks and Does neutered at 5-6 weeks? If so what method is used, I am assuming castration would have to be via the abdominal cavity. A 5-6 week old Buck's testicles will not have descended. Is a full general anaesthetic given and what post operative care do the Rabbits receive (see below)
2- Can you confirm that both Does and Bucks have a surgical neuter, not a chemical one (eg Neutrasol)? (see below)
As stated in my response which has been posted on the forum the rabbits are neutered at 5 weeks of age, I have detailed the method below for you which the vet has provided;
The protocol the vet uses is as follows:
- Pain management with Butorphanol IM and Meloxicam SQ, 30 minutes before surgery.
- Pre-oxygenation with 100% O2 for 3 minutes before face mask induction.
- Anaesthesia induction by face-mask with Isoflurane 3%, and maintenance with the same product at 1.5-2%. Oxygen is maintained at 1%.
- External temperature support during all the surgery and few hours postoperatively with an electrical heating pad.
The vet proceeds to clean and disinfect the surgical site with povidone-iodine and a small amounts of alcohol. On the male the access is through two incisions made on the scrotum and externalisation of the testicles by gently external manipulation of the inguinal canal from cranial to caudal. The ligation and excision of the testicles is performed with the aid of a bipolar electrocautery. The bleeding is non-existent or minimal and the skin incision is closed with surgical glue (from 3M or BBraun Vetcare). The females are operated on through a small midline incision and the ovaries and uterus are excised with the aid of the bipolar electrocautery. The closure of the incision in the female is made with one or two absorbable sutures (monosyn 3-4/0), respecting the various layers.
The rabbits wake up from the anaesthesia quickly and the rabbits recover well.
After surgery all the rabbits receive a SQ dose of a long acting antibiotic that ensures antibiotic coverage for 48 hr. Rabbits are regularly checked post op and in the days following the surgery.
3- Given that at 5-6 week old Rabbit's GI tract is at its most vulnerable due to the changing PH and the establishing of protective gut flora how many cases of Enteritis are encountered as a result of early weaning and immediate invasive surgery? (see below)
Because of the young age they are neutered at he finds they suffer from less enteritis problems.
4- How many deaths occur as a result of surgery ? (see below)
5- What research has been done to ascertain any longterm effects on health of Rabbits neutered at such a young age? (see below)
6- Given that a Rabbit's immune system is underdeveloped until at least 10 weeks, what research has been done to ascertain the
safety of subjecting such a young Rabbit to an onslaught of challenges to a still developing Immune System? i.e. Neutering and vaccinating against Myxomatosis and RHD. (see below)
They have confirmed that they do not get higher rates than when done at an older age and in fact recovery is quicker when done at the younger age. In relation to long term affects there have been no adverse affects reported so far.
7- Are Vaccinations done at the same time as the neuter? (see below)
No, Myxomatosis vaccine is done a week before and the VHD a week after to minimise the stress.
8- Why does P@H think it to be acceptable to not only subject an exceptionally young Rabbit to so much and then add to that stress by transporting them from Spain?
9- Given that they are for sale on the shop floor by the age of 8 weeks how is quarantine incorporated into this time-scale? (see below)
10- How are they transported? What is the duration of the journey? (see below)
Their vet has confirmed that they find they suffer from less problems due to their young age. This is not a long term plan as stated in my previous response that has been posted on the forum, we’re paying extra to ensure that they are transported by air so the journey time is limited and the early signs are that the rabbits are doing very well following transport. We are resting them after the journey, they are not delivered straight to stores and they get a week’s rest and quarantine to ensure that the rabbits are healthy and happy before they are available to customers. The rabbits come with a birth cert with a photo of the rabbit and details of each parent, including adult weight and their microchip details.
I would like to reiterate that this is a small trial to establish if there is a market in the UK for rabbits that have been vaccinated and/or neutered, this will offer welfare benefits for the rabbits, reduced risk of unwanted pregnancies. Being able to neuter, vaccinate and microchip the animals before they arrive in our stores, is key to helping us promote responsible pet ownership and ensuring that the animals in our care go on to live happy, healthy lives. We know that many people do not neuter or vaccinate their rabbits and are keen to try different ways of encouraging this.
Kind Regards,
So, according to the above a 5 week old Buck's testicles will have descended ??????????????????
How can anyone thinking that ANY of this is acceptable
Many thanks for your patience whilst I gained further information for you.
I have contacted our Head of Pets who is a Qualified Veterinary Surgeon to come back with the answers you have requested.
I have detailed below each question and our answer underneath;
1- Are both Bucks and Does neutered at 5-6 weeks? If so what method is used, I am assuming castration would have to be via the abdominal cavity. A 5-6 week old Buck's testicles will not have descended. Is a full general anaesthetic given and what post operative care do the Rabbits receive (see below)
2- Can you confirm that both Does and Bucks have a surgical neuter, not a chemical one (eg Neutrasol)? (see below)
As stated in my response which has been posted on the forum the rabbits are neutered at 5 weeks of age, I have detailed the method below for you which the vet has provided;
The protocol the vet uses is as follows:
- Pain management with Butorphanol IM and Meloxicam SQ, 30 minutes before surgery.
- Pre-oxygenation with 100% O2 for 3 minutes before face mask induction.
- Anaesthesia induction by face-mask with Isoflurane 3%, and maintenance with the same product at 1.5-2%. Oxygen is maintained at 1%.
- External temperature support during all the surgery and few hours postoperatively with an electrical heating pad.
The vet proceeds to clean and disinfect the surgical site with povidone-iodine and a small amounts of alcohol. On the male the access is through two incisions made on the scrotum and externalisation of the testicles by gently external manipulation of the inguinal canal from cranial to caudal. The ligation and excision of the testicles is performed with the aid of a bipolar electrocautery. The bleeding is non-existent or minimal and the skin incision is closed with surgical glue (from 3M or BBraun Vetcare). The females are operated on through a small midline incision and the ovaries and uterus are excised with the aid of the bipolar electrocautery. The closure of the incision in the female is made with one or two absorbable sutures (monosyn 3-4/0), respecting the various layers.
The rabbits wake up from the anaesthesia quickly and the rabbits recover well.
After surgery all the rabbits receive a SQ dose of a long acting antibiotic that ensures antibiotic coverage for 48 hr. Rabbits are regularly checked post op and in the days following the surgery.
3- Given that at 5-6 week old Rabbit's GI tract is at its most vulnerable due to the changing PH and the establishing of protective gut flora how many cases of Enteritis are encountered as a result of early weaning and immediate invasive surgery? (see below)
Because of the young age they are neutered at he finds they suffer from less enteritis problems.
4- How many deaths occur as a result of surgery ? (see below)
5- What research has been done to ascertain any longterm effects on health of Rabbits neutered at such a young age? (see below)
6- Given that a Rabbit's immune system is underdeveloped until at least 10 weeks, what research has been done to ascertain the
safety of subjecting such a young Rabbit to an onslaught of challenges to a still developing Immune System? i.e. Neutering and vaccinating against Myxomatosis and RHD. (see below)
They have confirmed that they do not get higher rates than when done at an older age and in fact recovery is quicker when done at the younger age. In relation to long term affects there have been no adverse affects reported so far.
7- Are Vaccinations done at the same time as the neuter? (see below)
No, Myxomatosis vaccine is done a week before and the VHD a week after to minimise the stress.
8- Why does P@H think it to be acceptable to not only subject an exceptionally young Rabbit to so much and then add to that stress by transporting them from Spain?
9- Given that they are for sale on the shop floor by the age of 8 weeks how is quarantine incorporated into this time-scale? (see below)
10- How are they transported? What is the duration of the journey? (see below)
Their vet has confirmed that they find they suffer from less problems due to their young age. This is not a long term plan as stated in my previous response that has been posted on the forum, we’re paying extra to ensure that they are transported by air so the journey time is limited and the early signs are that the rabbits are doing very well following transport. We are resting them after the journey, they are not delivered straight to stores and they get a week’s rest and quarantine to ensure that the rabbits are healthy and happy before they are available to customers. The rabbits come with a birth cert with a photo of the rabbit and details of each parent, including adult weight and their microchip details.
I would like to reiterate that this is a small trial to establish if there is a market in the UK for rabbits that have been vaccinated and/or neutered, this will offer welfare benefits for the rabbits, reduced risk of unwanted pregnancies. Being able to neuter, vaccinate and microchip the animals before they arrive in our stores, is key to helping us promote responsible pet ownership and ensuring that the animals in our care go on to live happy, healthy lives. We know that many people do not neuter or vaccinate their rabbits and are keen to try different ways of encouraging this.
Kind Regards,
So, according to the above a 5 week old Buck's testicles will have descended ??????????????????
How can anyone thinking that ANY of this is acceptable
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