Side effects of Ranitidine and Baytril

[AndyRachel&Jack]

It was mentioned (CT), they have a machine at another branch in Leeds. She said that the cost could be between £300 and £700 (not sure why the amount is so widely variable) and may be inconclusive.

By the way I forgot to say that she is now on the Oxbow Critical Care. She's just had her second feed and is clearing loosing the effect of the steroids.

We urgently need to find a supply in Doncaster so will be ringing round in the morning. Only this evening did I realise how long the packet I came away with is not going to last!

I keep looking at info on the web and her symptoms just don't quite fit into anything. I do fear that it may be an middle or inner ear infection but it's not quite right. May be a tumour in the brain pressing in a particular place?

 

[nessar]

Pressing their tummy to the floor, sitting hunched and shifting around not being able to get comfy are clear signs of severe gastro-intestinal pain - I'm surprised your vet did not know that. It is often caused by a gastro-intestinal slowdown or stasis, or gas - your rabbit sounds like she has this so I'm not surprised she is acting this way. I would talk to the referral vet about pain relief again, there are non anti-inflammatory drugs that she may be able to have and it could improve her eating, which would really help her. She needs to start eating more in order to have a chance at beating this, stasis can be fatal.

I'd recommend offering water in a bowl rather than a bottle, if you currently use a bottle, she needs to be able to drink lots to prevent blockages in her already slow gut, but keep the bowl small enough so that she can't fall into it.

For her balance issue, I can only suggest more tests . Sometimes ear infections and other illnesses aren't able to be diagnosed without an xray/scan. I take it the vet you are now seeing is an exotics specialist? So you are in the right hands.

 

[nessar]

It was mentioned (CT), they have a machine at another branch in Leeds. She said that the cost could be between £300 and £700 (not sure why the amount is so widely variable) and may be inconclusive.

By the way I forgot to say that she is now on the Oxbow Critical Care. She's just had her second feed and is clearing loosing the effect of the steroids.

We urgently need to find a supply in Doncaster so will be ringing round in the morning. Only this evening did I realise how long the packet I came away with is not going to last!

I keep looking at info on the web and her symptoms just don't quite fit into anything. I do fear that it may be an middle or inner ear infection but it's not quite right. May be a tumour in the brain pressing in a particular place?

Amazon sell it and offer delivery by friday: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxbow-Criti...447879373&sr=1-1&keywords=oxbow+critical+care
You can get it cheaper on other sites but delivery takes days. I'd recommend buying at least 2 of the above and then getting some from your local vet to tide you over till it arrives. The vet may carry Supreme Recovery instead, it's essentially the same stuff, slightly lower in fibre. Critical Care/Recovery is brilliant stuff and essential when treating stasis. I also offer it in a bowl - rabbits usually love it so many will lap some up, which cuts down on the amount of (and stress of) syringe feeding.

 

[MightyMax]

Vets went OK, of course she looked OK as the steroids were still still working (she'll be in trouble at about 5am tomorrow morning I reckon). I showed a video of how bad she is off them, taken last night before they kicked in. Examination, ear exam, temperature normal, eyes OK. She had an injection (I stupidly came away without name of drug but can ask tomorrow.) Blood tests have been done, I got the partial results this afternoon. Glucose slightly high (but normal considering stress off handling), liver function OK, calcium levels at top end of normal range (a little over I think she said). She said although that sometimes can be connected to a tumour it can be caused by a number of other things. Awaiting more results tomorrow.

I've got a treatment for E.Cuniculi, just in case it's that.

I've been looking at lots of info online and the symptoms don't seam to fit into anything.

Basically these are the symptoms (When not on steroids):

Cannot walk without wobbling,
Almost always falls over sideways, can be either side,
When she stops, she falls forward and then almost goes head over heals to one side.
Cannot easily get up when fallen (has to be helped to avoid stress)
Scratches at the floor occasionally (could be normal behaviour),
Seeks out dark corners (hides head into your elbow when held),
Loss of appetite although does eat tiny amounts (when on renitidine)
Rocks head a little from side to side

Things she has NOT got:

Head tilting to side,
Incontinence,
Unusual eye movements,
Problems with breathing, snuffling, discharges,
Weakness of any limbs.

Will update with further info

Thanks

Perhaps consider Floppy Rabbit Syndrome?

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/research/floppy-rabbit-syndrome

Has she been on IV fluids, or can you administer sub Q fluids?

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

Pressing their tummy to the floor, sitting hunched and shifting around not being able to get comfy are clear signs of severe gastro-intestinal pain - I'm surprised your vet did not know that. It is often caused by a gastro-intestinal slowdown or stasis, or gas - your rabbit sounds like she has this so I'm not surprised she is acting this way. I would talk to the referral vet about pain relief again, there are non anti-inflammatory drugs that she may be able to have and it could improve her eating, which would really help her. She needs to start eating more in order to have a chance at beating this, stasis can be fatal.

I'd recommend offering water in a bowl rather than a bottle, if you currently use a bottle, she needs to be able to drink lots to prevent blockages in her already slow gut, but keep the bowl small enough so that she can't fall into it.

For her balance issue, I can only suggest more tests . Sometimes ear infections and other illnesses aren't able to be diagnosed without an xray/scan. I take it the vet you are now seeing is an exotics specialist? So you are in the right hands.

Hi, she is now out of stasis, our vet did realise quickly that this was the initial problem and we got her through it. She's been eating and producing good droppings since Friday and put weight on. This was mainly due to the steroids however. She was eating through the slowdown before steroids. Dandelions, greens, tiny amounts of grass and raspberry leaves were the only things we could get her to eat, I must say in small amounts though. Her appetite did seam to pick up though just before the balance issue started which was odd, as if she was just recovering and was hit by another problem. The balance issue may well have been underlying cause of the stasis but not exhibiting visible symptoms till the 11th day.

The balance thing only developed on day 11 (after the very first signs of trouble with eating). We are trying to maintain her digestive process with Oxbow critical care whilst doing further investigation/treatment to ensure

She's had a water bowl for some time, but rarely drinks from it (although she knows how too). She has been getting plenty of moisture from green foods. Also the Oxbow with the water will hydrate her, be may give her water in a syringe.

Yes were are at a vets now with more knowledge of rabbits. Our normal vet was quite honest and at the point where they could not treat further they told us that we need further advice.

Thanks for the info on the critical care supplies.

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

Perhaps consider Floppy Rabbit Syndrome?

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/research/floppy-rabbit-syndrome

Has she been on IV fluids, or can you administer sub Q fluids?

No, she's not been on IV fluids, what is involved in sub Q fluids.

She's now very bad again. Just tried feeding her the critical care again. She did eat a piece of apple earlier this eve and take 2 doses of the critical care. Unfortunately she has now developed a violent dislike of even the smell of it, (Or maybe she's just not hungry as she's been eating fine up until 4 hours ago?). Put in some raspberry leaves and she nibbled them a tiny bit. Now laying propped up against the skirting board under a nice warm radiator. At this point I'm worried that the only way to feed from now on her is forcibly which I've never had to do and it's going to be very distressing for her and us. I'm hopping that she may nibble food or take critical care well when she's a bit more hungry.

Have read about the Floppy Rabbit thing and I emailed her Francis through her website with a video just in case. Mouse hasn't got the full paralysis thing but it does look like her movements are similar in some ways. I've been thinking that it might not be so much loss of balance as loss of coordination of the legs. She holds her head level when you hold her with no tilting, but she feels floppy like a piece of squirmy cloth. Here is a link to the video on youtube https://youtu.be/kKPM2UBFNSQ

 

[Jack's-Jane]

No, she's not been on IV fluids, what is involved in sub Q fluids.

She's now very bad again. Just tried feeding her the critical care again. She did eat a piece of apple earlier this eve and take 2 doses of the critical care. Unfortunately she has now developed a violent dislike of even the smell of it, (Or maybe she's just not hungry as she's been eating fine up until 4 hours ago?). Put in some raspberry leaves and she nibbled them a tiny bit. Now laying propped up against the skirting board under a nice warm radiator. At this point I'm worried that the only way to feed from now on her is forcibly which I've never had to do and it's going to be very distressing for her and us. I'm hopping that she may nibble food or take critical care well when she's a bit more hungry.

Have read about the Floppy Rabbit thing and I emailed her Francis through her website with a video just in case. Mouse hasn't got the full paralysis thing but it does look like her movements are similar in some ways. I've been thinking that it might not be so much loss of balance as loss of coordination of the legs. She holds her head level when you hold her with no tilting, but she feels floppy like a piece of squirmy cloth. Here is a link to the video on youtube https://youtu.be/kKPM2UBFNSQ

Poor Mouse

To me it looks like it is a brain issue, I had a Rabbit exhibit the exact same symptoms and sadly he actually had an abscess on his brain. Of course I cannot say for certain that is the case for Mouse, but seeing the video she looks to be displaying the same issues as my Rabbit did. In my experience with 'Floppy Rabbit Syndrome' it does not present in the same way and the 'floppiness' has been rapid in onset and is not sporadic-ie the Rabbit quickly becomes unable to move at all. They do not have the ability to hop and fall over then get up and hop again.

I really hope that the Vet can help Mouse.

 

[MightyMax]

No, she's not been on IV fluids, what is involved in sub Q fluids.

She's now very bad again. Just tried feeding her the critical care again. She did eat a piece of apple earlier this eve and take 2 doses of the critical care. Unfortunately she has now developed a violent dislike of even the smell of it, (Or maybe she's just not hungry as she's been eating fine up until 4 hours ago?). Put in some raspberry leaves and she nibbled them a tiny bit. Now laying propped up against the skirting board under a nice warm radiator. At this point I'm worried that the only way to feed from now on her is forcibly which I've never had to do and it's going to be very distressing for her and us. I'm hopping that she may nibble food or take critical care well when she's a bit more hungry.

Have read about the Floppy Rabbit thing and I emailed her Francis through her website with a video just in case. Mouse hasn't got the full paralysis thing but it does look like her movements are similar in some ways. I've been thinking that it might not be so much loss of balance as loss of coordination of the legs. She holds her head level when you hold her with no tilting, but she feels floppy like a piece of squirmy cloth. Here is a link to the video on youtube https://youtu.be/kKPM2UBFNSQ

Thank you for replying.

Sub Q fluids (sub-cutaneous, under the skin) is something you can learn to do at home yourself, when your rabbit is dehydrated or needs a bit extra fluid to feel good. Your vet can dispense you the saline and needles and the vet nurse show you how to do it.

I'm glad you've contacted FHB. It may be she doesn't have the time to reply, but you now have a video that you can show to a specialist and take along the info.

It could be that poor Mouse has had a stroke I have had this in bunnies.

There's some reading here - I know head tilt isn't the primary symptom, but the articles are useful nonetheless:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?207334-Head-tilts/page3 (This also talks about issues of the nervous system)

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?207334-Head-tilts/page3

Wishing you loads of good luck xx

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

Hi, I'm sorry to say that we had to take a very difficult decision today and end the suffering. Poor Mouse came out of the steroids effect worse than ever. Not only was she like the video shows but it got worse. Last night, although eating a bit of apple and some raspberry leaves, even taking 2 doses of critical care, by midnight she responded very badly to an attempt to feed her the c.c. and showed no interest in apple or raspberry leaves.

What follows is very upsetting but I need to share it as all the information could help future sick rabbits.

I checked her every so often while posting on here and then at 2am while upstairs combing the web for information I heard a scuffle downstairs. She was on her back and side struggling to get up. She was very difficult to pick up but I got her and decided that I'd have to hold her until the morning. I made a nest of cushions if I had to leave her for few minutes. She was OK and seamed relaxed but every so often would breathe differently and wriggle a bit which if I didn't put my hand on her could lead to a desperate but strong burrowing motion. I think she must have been in pain at times for a few seconds and them a semi sleep state most of the time. At one point she had worked her way round to my shoulder and woke me up licking my neck. She must have not been in pain all the time to do that and she seamed quite calm. Towards dawn I had to keep my hand on her to calm her, if I moved away she would start to wriggle.

By morning I knew this had to end. I got her remaining blood test results at 8am by phone. The vet was brilliant and rang me straight back. The two things which stood out were high calcium and that she was anaemic. When I told her how bad Mouse was she said that probably further steroids would be needed allow us to do more tests. I don't think she would have survived long even with them she was getting more ill each time. Without the steroids she couldn't function.

We decided that we would go to our vets asap to end the suffering, I was with her right through and she didn't suffer at all. We love all our rabbits but mouse was a very special little person and so affectionate. We are so devastated to loose her so young.

FHB did get back early in the morning, which was good of her. Definitely not FRS, suggested inner ear or problem with vestibular system

 

[SarahP]

I'm so sorry you had to make this difficult decision. Hope you are OK. xxx

 

[Bunny Buddy]

I'm so, so sorry to read your update . Just heartbroken for you both.

 

[MightyMax]

I'm so very very sorry

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Hi, I'm sorry to say that we had to take a very difficult decision today and end the suffering. Poor Mouse came out of the steroids effect worse than ever. Not only was she like the video shows but it got worse. Last night, although eating a bit of apple and some raspberry leaves, even taking 2 doses of critical care, by midnight she responded very badly to an attempt to feed her the c.c. and showed no interest in apple or raspberry leaves.

What follows is very upsetting but I need to share it as all the information could help future sick rabbits.

I checked her every so often while posting on here and then at 2am while upstairs combing the web for information I heard a scuffle downstairs. She was on her back and side struggling to get up. She was very difficult to pick up but I got her and decided that I'd have to hold her until the morning. I made a nest of cushions if I had to leave her for few minutes. She was OK and seamed relaxed but every so often would breathe differently and wriggle a bit which if I didn't put my hand on her could lead to a desperate but strong burrowing motion. I think she must have been in pain at times for a few seconds and them a semi sleep state most of the time. At one point she had worked her way round to my shoulder and woke me up licking my neck. She must have not been in pain all the time to do that and she seamed quite calm. Towards dawn I had to keep my hand on her to calm her, if I moved away she would start to wriggle.

By morning I knew this had to end. I got her remaining blood test results at 8am by phone. The vet was brilliant and rang me straight back. The two things which stood out were high calcium and that she was anaemic. When I told her how bad Mouse was she said that probably further steroids would be needed allow us to do more tests. I don't think she would have survived long even with them she was getting more ill each time. Without the steroids she couldn't function.

We decided that we would go to our vets asap to end the suffering, I was with her right through and she didn't suffer at all. We love all our rabbits but mouse was a very special little person and so affectionate. We are so devastated to loose her so young.

FHB did get back early in the morning, which was good of her. Definitely not FRS, suggested inner ear or problem with vestibular system

I am so very sorry. I didn't think it sounded like FRS. I think you made the right decision to let her go. I would have done the same

RIP Mouse xx

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

Thanks to everyone who has posted and helped, I have read them all. I now know a lot more about the medications available and will be better prepared for things like onset of stasis. I certainly knew something was wrong within hours but I lost a day or two at the start just monitoring and I would now seek blood tests at the first sign of trouble which falls outside the scope of the regular treatments. I could have saved maybe 3 days over the weekend. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I suppose you have to eliminate the basics first before rushing into guesswork. It would have been better if we had used Panacur already on all of themregularly so that E.C. could have been ruled out from the start. Need to get some for the others. Off to feed and check all the others now and give then some time.

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks to everyone who has posted and helped, I have read them all. I now know a lot more about the medications available and will be better prepared for things like onset of stasis. I certainly knew something was wrong within hours but I lost a day or two at the start just monitoring and I would now seek blood tests at the first sign of trouble which falls outside the scope of the regular treatments. I could have saved maybe 3 days over the weekend. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I suppose you have to eliminate the basics first before rushing into guesswork. It would have been better if we had used Panacur already on all of themregularly so that E.C. could have been ruled out from the start. Need to get some for the others. Off to feed and check all the others now and give then some time.

Bless you

Hindsight is indeed wonderful, and so is blaming yourself and feeling guilty. Neither of which you should do to yourself!

With the best of help, things may not have turned out differently. Most people don't have blood tests done at the onset of stasis. They are costly and also they take a while to come back, depending on whether the vet has to send them away or not.

Also, Panacur is great, but in my experience of looking after hundreds of rescue buns including my own, it's not the panacea for all ills and many many conditions fall outside being helped by it. In fact in certain cases it has actually caused harm.

Sending you big hugs x

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

Poor Mouse

To me it looks like it is a brain issue, I had a Rabbit exhibit the exact same symptoms and sadly he actually had an abscess on his brain. Of course I cannot say for certain that is the case for Mouse, but seeing the video she looks to be displaying the same issues as my Rabbit did. In my experience with 'Floppy Rabbit Syndrome' it does not present in the same way and the 'floppiness' has been rapid in onset and is not sporadic-ie the Rabbit quickly becomes unable to move at all. They do not have the ability to hop and fall over then get up and hop again.

I really hope that the Vet can help Mouse.

Although we will never know what happened, I think we'll put it down to something like that. I'm sure it was very serious. The aversion to light was very extreme.

I'll stop posting here now unless anyone reads this thread in the future and wants help or if anything comes to light from anyone with a similar poorly rabbit.

I'd like to post some pictures of Mouse in the relevant thread so everyone can see her as she was before this happened. Thanks again.

 

[Omi]

I am so sorry you had to make this decision for your precious Mouse. It is heartbreaking Please post some pictures of Mouse when you feel ready, maybe in the Rainbow Bridge section of the forum

 

[AndyRachel&Jack]

I am so sorry you had to make this decision for your precious Mouse. It is heartbreaking Please post some pictures of Mouse when you feel ready, maybe in the Rainbow Bridge section of the forum

Hi I did put some in the Stories and Photos section, I'll have to put some up in the Rainbow Bridge section. I'm still so upset, I hope we did the right thing. It was such a traumatic night, without any real sleep for me. Rachel was upset too and Jack, especially later when it sank in. I think I took it worst as I'm the one who usually feeds and checks them every night before bedtime. We also nursed her through a nasty set of bite injuries (from another baby rabbit). I'd bring Mouse in for 1/2 an hour or so, she was so friendly. If you sat with her she would climb up and lick your face! She really accepted you as another rabbit. I do now wish I'd let her have more steroids and done some more tests. I was afraid that they were damaging her though and that underneath their "normalising" effects the disease or whatever it was getting worse rapidly. I feel terrible about it. Her condition that night was bad though. I couldn't see how we would ever be able to treat her effectively without the steroids. Basically she would have just lay there cocooned in with soft things to keep her still, in the dark. It would have been absolute force feeding medicines, critical care etc., she couldn't have moved without help to her toilet corner or eaten her cecotropes. That would have been assuming we even found out what was wrong and could treat with the correct drugs, and assuming she was treatable. I just don't know how long the steroids could have gone on before the underlying problem got her. It bothers me that we never actually found out what was wrong as well.