Prevention of coccidiosis

[thumps_]

I don't know whether this is diet or health.
Many of you know me for encouraging the use of safe tree leaves for stasis prone rabbits.
Maizey has just shown me a link that they help to prevent cocidiosis species by the action of tannins. The different species tend to live in different parts of the gut.

I've noticed that Blackthorn clears out Benjie's pin worms successfully & wondered what else it cleared out. Here's an answer.
Blackthorn certainly has a very high tannin concentration.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Protozoal_diseases/Cocc_en.htm

 

[Barn Yard Bunnies]

Thank you.

I don't think I had ever heard of it until Captains Helen two bunnies passed away. From the little I understand, is it a parasite ? Anyway its always good to know what can help or prevent it.

What are the leaves you use for statis. I would be very interested to know this too.

 

[cpayne]

My rabbit was diagnosed with it 4 weeks ago. She's just stopped her septrin now.

Think she picked it up from the bunnery where a previous rabbit was on the same bit of grass as she then ate. I guess the rabbit was a carrier and had no symptoms but doughnut ate the grass which had been poops on.

Apparently there is an outbreak at the moment, the vets said they had lots coming in and sometimes the symptoms are different. Doughnut had no mucus in her poop but she had diarrhea and her stomach was making a terrible gurgling sound and she was not herself. She was fine 3 hours before, eating all of her pellets and happy. It was all very quick and I'm so thankful it happened on a Sunday as if it was a week day I would have been at work and hate to think what I would have come back to.

 

[Captain Helen]

That's very interesting, thank you. What does blackthorn look like at this time of year? Google says it's a bit like hawthorn, would that also have a high tannin content?

 

[thumps_]

That's very interesting, thank you. What does blackthorn look like at this time of year? Google says it's a bit like hawthorn, would that also have a high tannin content?

I just turned on to pm you.
1st. I always advise people to do what the vet says. The things I suggest are really preventative & part of the diet.
Sadly most of the leaves have fallen now, even as far South as here. So at this time of year Blackthorn is bare, growing in hedges occasionally thickets, maybe a few black sloes hanging on but we had no sloes this year down here.:? However wild rabbits scoff the fallen leaves very quickly.

You can spot them in spring. they flower on bare branches before the leaves. They're fine white flowers often in pairs but not in clumps like hawthorn. Hawthorn flowers later once the leaves are beginning to come out, & the flowers are in clumps almost like the curds of curdled milk!
The leaves are a totally different shape (colour) Blackthorn are the standard leaf shape sometimes with fine serrations along the sides. Hawthorn has lobed leaves.
Blackthorn has the most vicious thorns, at least 1" long, on the previous years growth & are to be avoided cos they usually break off in a stab wound & are difficult to treat.
I'll ask Geoff's people to post the remedy.

Both Thumper & Benjie will only eat the leaves in autumn once the sloe berries have ripened & developed a white bloom. This only gives us a window of about 6-8 weeks to collect enough for the year.

I don't know about the tannin level in hawthorn but both my buns eat the fresh leaves fom spring until late summer.

In sheltered places there are still bramble (blackberry leaves) growing both in hedges & on waste ground everywhere. This is the old fashioned treatment for scours ("diarrhoea") raspberry leaves are just as good.

Thumper had his personal scale of effectiveness, from bottom to top.
Fruit tree/bush leaves. Hawthorn. Bramble & raspberry. Willow. Blackthorn.
Personally I'm a bit worried about oak as the mature leaves aren't eaten by wildies. I Go by what the wildies eat!!!
Hope this helps.

 

[Captain Helen]

Thank you. I'm not very good at recognising different plants. I had hawthorn in the garden for 10 years before I knew what it was I have brambles in the garden too, but it hasn't grown very well this year and it doesn't look very healthy (to my very untrained eye!).

I'm not sure what willow looks like either I must make more of an effort this spring to get to know the rabbit safe plants. They all look the same to me and I worry about picking something poisonous.

 

[thumps_]

Maybe we need a foragers thread 2013 now that users have changed a lot. In the original huge thread by Chelle we covered loads of topics from drying methods to folk sending in photos for identification.
We honestly didn't mind if folk posted photos of dandelions. Some people have spent all their lives in cities & wild plants are completely foreign to them.

Personally I prefer someone else to confirm or otherwise my identifications. It's quite a responsibility. We have quite specialised plants round here, cos we're on chalk downland & it can be a long time since I came across some of them.

 

[akaemzybabe]

I recently read that article too

I personally wouldnt feed oak either you also have to bear in mind there are evergreen oaks which are not safe at all.

Any branches and leaves should always be this years growth. ie nice and sappy and green/lighter than the older wood. In older wood the tanning levels are too high.

Tanning is a natural asprin so its a good friend to have to hand with unwell rabbits

A good place to find safe wood is goat/sallow willow which is by most rivers etc it is quite easy to distinguish from other willows as the leaves are quite rounded. Black willow has very high tannings and should be avoided. Just make sure around you they dont spray for blandford fly (like they do here) all other river banks next to foot paths are highly unlikely to be sprayed with anything as they are monitored by the EA for water quality.

Also if you know anyone with an orchard its worth speaking to them too.

My poorly girl is getting plenty of dried leaves at the moment plantain, apple, backberry etc packaged stuff I wish I had a better garden to grow theses myself

 

[thumps_]

Thank you.

I don't think I had ever heard of it until Captains Helen two bunnies passed away. From the little I understand, is it a parasite ? Anyway its always good to know what can help or prevent it.

What are the leaves you use for statis. I would be very interested to know this too.

I'm so sorry I missed your post.
Yes, Coccidia are protozoan parasites - single celled organisms which can move, usually with tiny hair like projections & are closer to the animal kingdom than plants.

Blackthorn is my own stasis standby. The only buns I know of, who wouldn't eat it were Pretty lupin's buns! They prefer willow. There's an interesting thread from some years ago, about the tree leaves & forage we fed our stasis prone buns. I don't think any diagnosis was the same! It's nice to see several people's experiences.
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ried-given-your-stasis-prone-buns-tree-leaves
We were giving mainly hawthorn sometimes with brambles thrown in on a daily basis. Both Floppy & Nino had painful joint problem causing stasis. The rest of us noticed marked beneficial effects.

 

[thumps_]

I recently read that article too

I personally wouldnt feed oak either you also have to bear in mind there are evergreen oaks which are not safe at all.

Any branches and leaves should always be this years growth. ie nice and sappy and green/lighter than the older wood. In older wood the tanning levels are too high.

Tanning is a natural asprin so its a good friend to have to hand with unwell rabbits

A good place to find safe wood is goat/sallow willow which is by most rivers etc it is quite easy to distinguish from other willows as the leaves are quite rounded. Black willow has very high tannings and should be avoided. Just make sure around you they dont spray for blandford fly (like they do here) all other river banks next to foot paths are highly unlikely to be sprayed with anything as they are monitored by the EA for water quality.

Also if you know anyone with an orchard its worth speaking to them too.

My poorly girl is getting plenty of dried leaves at the moment plantain, apple, backberry etc packaged stuff I wish I had a better garden to grow theses myself

:wave: Hi. I think you should be joining in with the foragers.
I was also amazed by another favourite of my 2 poorly buns Greater plantain, which I notice you use. I was astounded by it's properties as confirmed by modern research. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ge-and-plant-properties&p=5594144#post5594144 #32
Although ribwort plantain is said to have very similar properties as to make no significant difference both my buns have a definite preference for greater plantain. (Sorry as usual I digressed )

 

[akaemzybabe]

Thanks for the link Thumps thats an excellent thread

I was looking at the ingredients in a couple of the pellet feeds I've brought recently and was quite shocked to see so much poo in them

 

[akaemzybabe]

Thumps - I just realised you dont live so far from me I'm in Blandford your in the next county do you know any very go vets my way? I am seriously looking at being referred to the highcroft vet referrals at the mo

 

[thumps_]

Thumps - I just realised you dont live so far from me I'm in Blandford your in the next county do you know any very go vets my way? I am seriously looking at being referred to the highcroft vet referrals at the mo

John Chitty is very highly spoken of indeed. He's based in Andover. I'm not sure whether he still does a weekly visit to Salisbury.
I didn't go through Blandford Forum on my visits to Bournmouth, but certainly know about the Blandford fly. You need some bog myrtle spray when you go foraging. I think it's marketed as "stop bite". Not for bunnies though!

 

[blue_vix]

Coccidiosis osteocytes within the feces become infectious 24hrs after they are pooed out, so cleaning them out at least once a day should prevent the cycle of reinfection.

 

[cpayne]

I noticed quite a lot of fecal splats from Doughnut this morning. She is as happy as anything though. The only thing that I've reintroduced to her after she's been on hay only is her willow tunnel and apple sticks. Do you think this could cause them or is she not fully better?

I've taken both away again to monitor her.

 

[thumps_]

Coccidiosis osteocytes within the feces become infectious 24hrs after they are pooed out, so cleaning them out at least once a day should prevent the cycle of reinfection.

I didn't know that there was this delay before the oocysts became infectious, thank you.
I'm certainly a very strong advocate of good hygeine as a normal part of rabbit care.

I'm very aware of the many people who live in cities who may not have access to forage. However some, like myself may be able to access forage easily, & many do so already.
For a "wildie watcher", & someone who has to feed their own buns a wildie diet for different reasons, it's fascinating to watch how buns choose 1 food in preference to another.

When Thumper was a baby, he wouldn't even start to eat the tastiest morsels, until he'd had his "horsd'oevre" of dead fallen apple leaves!:shock: WHY? It didn't make sense to me.
I've watched wildies actually climbing in bramble thickets with vicious thorns just to get an old bramble leaf lot's of times. WHY?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6zRr_EpyNE

Well with Thumper it certainly kept his gut going despite an incurable gradual deterioration, caused by a rare form of TB. It certainly helped to keep his dysbiosis under control when nothing more could be done about diet. (I had a rabbit I couldn't feed!:shock It definately helped a lot of other stasis prone rabbits have less frequent & less severe episodes.
I've recently found 2 more good reasons why wildies (& our buns) "like" their twigs & leaves so much.
Benjie deworms himself with blackthorn long before I'm aware he has a problem.
A friends bun with intestinal coccidiosis suddenly went crackers for blackthorn. The problem there is that we can't decontaminate the ground, & the oocysts remain viable for a long time.

So from a simple observation that wildies (&Thumper) go crackers for tree leaves, I'm finding out many good health reasons why they should do this. Bunnies aren't half clever!:lol:

 

[thumps_]

I noticed quite a lot of fecal splats from Doughnut this morning. She is as happy as anything though. The only thing that I've reintroduced to her after she's been on hay only is her willow tunnel and apple sticks. Do you think this could cause them or is she not fully better?

I've taken both away again to monitor her.

It would be very unusal for any woody twig to cause the splats. I think you've done the right thing though. Just occasionally a bunny with dysbiosis will do a final splat when you give high fibre. Splats have been hanging round in the caecum for too long, so sometimes "kick starting" the caecum to contract, gets the last bit of muck out, which is a good thing. I can only say that you get to know your bun over time.

Yes, they need to be on a hay only diet for at least 3 weeks after the faeces settle down, before starting to reintroduce other foods. When you do it this way it is highly successful for 99.9% buns.
So yes, you've done the right thing.

If it isn't successful, the vet might need to look into other possibilities.

This new information leaves me with a plethora of unanswered questions. I'm sorry I don't have answers just now.

 

[Babsie]

John Chitty is very highly spoken of indeed. He's based in Andover. I'm not sure whether he still does a weekly visit to Salisbury.
I didn't go through Blandford Forum on my visits to Bournmouth, but certainly know about the Blandford fly. You need some bog myrtle spray when you go foraging. I think it's marketed as "stop bite". Not for bunnies though!

JC is now based at Anton Vets, Andover. There is a website giving all details of his various clinics.

 

[cpayne]

Thanks for the advice.