Need litter training advice - U/D post9 Licking the Wall??

[Jenova]

Hi,

Just a quick explanation on my bunny, Grim in case you don't know. He's had problems with his teeth since I got him, blocking his tear ducts, spurs and the final thing, his incisors growing weirdly. It was discovered he has massive bone abscesses in the roots. He's had his incisors removed and is on medication etc... but this has meant that he's been under general anaesthetic about three times in the last few months.

Now onto the main reason for this post. Grimlock used to be litter trained. He lived in a hutch outside and had a litter tray in there. He also has a litter tray in the front room. I waited to see where he pooed in the house and just put the tray there. He used it every day with no problems... until he started to go under general anesthetic. I think it's the stress but he just stops using it.

Plus... I have now moved him inside permanently as it's getting cold and he's not well. He has a nice dog crate in the bedroom. But I also have chinchillas in the bedroom and he goes by their cages as he can smell them.

And... we've just had two housemates move in. So he's really stressed from everything at the moment and pooing in a litter tray is understandably the least of his worries, plus he may also be marking his territory as there are new people in the house.

The main problem is my landlord was happy for him to move inside, when he was litter trained. He's decidedly not happy about the poo on the floor. And my boyfriend is not happy either. He loves Grimlock but he can't stand coming downstairs in the morning to find he can't see the floor in the corner of the front room because there is so much poo, which gets walked into the carpet and generally is a bit gross and going to bed bare footed and stepping on it.

He's said if it carries on Grimlock will have to go back outside. And I know I won't let that happen. It will cause so many arguments because I love my pets almost as much as I love him. At the moment I'm running around after him picking up poos. I'm putting him in his litter tray when I see him going, I'm rewarding him for sitting in it but he's just too stressed. I need some help. :?

 

[thumps_]

I'm so very sorry to hear of Grimlock's illness. He's a super bun.
When you are with him does he just pass occasional single poops, as if he doesn't realize it's happened or does he sit down and do a pile?

May I just consider some possible physical factors here.

An abscess involving bone is painful. Any pain can upset a bunny's gut & a very 1st. sign can be loss of pooh litter training. Has Grimlock got pain relief?

If he is taking AB's that can also upset the gut flora. Is he taking probiotics?

Any chance of putting an extra litter tray in the corner that gets "covered with poops" over night?

 

[lildebs]

I wonder if he's territorial marking? if he can smell the other pets...so just letting them know it's his house also??

 

[Jenova]

He does a pile of poos, and he's very specific where he does them. The main place is next to his litter tray downstairs. But not in it, although he used to.

He is having pain relief and he's also on a penicillin injection. But I think it's also territorial as he goes next to the chinchillas cages. There's four of them so he either wants to compete or he thinks that's where he's supposed to go because they're going there.

With the chinchillas if they're on antibiotics I also give them pro-biotic yogurt. Is there anything similar I can do for Grim? His poos are mainly fine, there is the odd GIGANTIC one, but very rarely.

 

[thumps_]

It's sounding much more territorial.
I'd put an old towel where he does the most poops beside his tray!
It's beginning to look like you'll have to be 1st. up to clean up his poops so nobody treads in them. If you could manage this for a few days, he'll be able to smell his scent but humans won't.
I hope he isn't spraying!!!

Rabbit waste poops are so harmless bacteriologically that lots of people eat them by accident & come to no harm at all. They are so dry they don't leave a mark. I would suggest that you just clean trodden in poops with plain water, because anything scented or disinfectant will just make him want to scent over it.

There's the question of whether your house mates use perfumary which often contains feronomes (animal sexual signals) which is making him like this. That would be a tricky one to negotiate.

 

[Jenova]

Thanks for the advice.
The towel is a good idea. I never thought about perfumes etc, my boyfriend has started using air freshner... :roll:

 

[prettylupin]

Ooh get rid of the air freshner pronto! Aromatic hydrocarbons are no good for anyone to be breathing in, human or rabbit! :wave:
Fresh air is always best

I feel it very likely that all the stress and upset of being ill and surgery etc has caused him to lose his litter habits, this is common. What I think has happened is that in losing them he found somewhere else to go and now by habit he continues to go here.... there is a lovely saying about rabbit behaviour - don't expect them to change by magic...what they did yesterday they will do today and again tomorrow unless you break the pattern. Rabbits are creatures of habit. Does he use the tray for his wee? It may be that he is finding it difficult to jump into the tray? or just can't be bothered, or is actually quite happy to use his new spot. Can you put two trays together side by side so that they cover the new spot he uses?

I also strongly suspect there is quite a substantial territorial element to this with all the upset and new housemates etc... not to mention the chinchillas.
I totally sympathise - our male bun has never used a tray for his droppings unless they happen to pop out whilst he is in there! :roll: He is neutered, fantastically litter trained very quickly for wees (he is a rescue) and is a very good boy in all other ways. I pick up droppings off our sitting room carpet, hallway and his hutch on a constant daily basis - throughout the day! :roll::lol: There is nothing we can do about it - it is simply his way, Dr Anne McBride told me it was not uncommon for 'young batchelor males' in the wild to have no need for a communal latrine, esp as many often choose to live on the surface rather than underground for much of the year. Our bun is very much one of these! I could train him til I was blue in the face and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. He also has a strange timing in his bowels and often poos great heaps whilst dozing or fast asleep! :roll: However, before you worry your bun will be like this which is unusual in our domestic buns...Grimlock was poo litter trained before so I believe he has the capacity, it is just all the change that has broken it. I think it will settle in time, but only once he has some consistency and routine in his life. Something which has greatly reduced Nino's offerings around the carpet are just this, plus I completely recommend observing Grimlock's territory boundaries and making sure you, your boyfriend and everyone else also respects it - with less invasion into his territory he will begin to learn where yours begins and his ends and should in time feel less of a need to mark it all. You don't have to put physical boundaries up - but just keep well away from his latrine corner and general spaces he considers his whilst he is in them. :wave:

 

[Jenova]

Thank you very much. That was really, really helpful.
I'm going to start making a few changes and let you know how it all goes on.

This forum is awesome. :mrgreen:

 

[Jenova]

Okay... random update. Grimlock jumped into his litter tray and started licking the wall. He did this for about five minutes, peed and then ran off. I managed to catch the last couple of minutes on my phone's camera. Click the piccie to play the clip. Not the best quality I'm afraid.



I don't know what this behaviour means. He still hasn't pooed in there for ages. I keep on putting all the ones he does on the carpet in there.

I think I'll just give up on it for a while as I'm only ging to stress him more by trying. I'll just be his personal poo picking up slave for a while. He deserves it.

 

[Sandra]

Hi! He sounds like such an adorable bun!

When one of my girls was on antibiotics the vet recommended that I give her pro-biotic yogurt which I did and she really liked it.

I also have the pooing issue with my bonded pair... They were perfectly litter trained when we lived in Iceland and now when we moved to Jordan there is poo everywhere :shock: Although my boyfriend loves the buns it makes him go slightly mental... I try to get up first in the morning to clean it up but it doesn't always work.

They are free ranging buns and we have litter trays in the kitchen, the hallway, the dining room and the living room. Where do the buns choose to poo? Next to the litter trays of course... Our male also poos while sleeping:roll:

I bought a spray called Urine-off which I have used when I clean the floors which seems to be helping. The floor is marble and poos stuck on the floor get really stuck...

I have however noticed that the pooing outside of the litter trays goes on at night, not during day when I am around. I was thinking about confining them to a smaller space at night, maybe just let them be in one room, to see if that helps.

I asked the landlord and he said that the former tenants had a dog, I am not sure whether they can still smell the dog or something and that they therefore need to mark...

Buns are mysterious

 

[prettylupin]

Hi! He sounds like such an adorable bun!

When one of my girls was on antibiotics the vet recommended that I give her pro-biotic yogurt which I did and she really liked it.

I also have the pooing issue with my bonded pair... They were perfectly litter trained when we lived in Iceland and now when we moved to Jordan there is poo everywhere :shock: Although my boyfriend loves the buns it makes him go slightly mental... I try to get up first in the morning to clean it up but it doesn't always work.

They are free ranging buns and we have litter trays in the kitchen, the hallway, the dining room and the living room. Where do the buns choose to poo? Next to the litter trays of course... Our male also poos while sleeping:roll:

I bought a spray called Urine-off which I have used when I clean the floors which seems to be helping. The floor is marble and poos stuck on the floor get really stuck...

I have however noticed that the pooing outside of the litter trays goes on at night, not during day when I am around. I was thinking about confining them to a smaller space at night, maybe just let them be in one room, to see if that helps.

I asked the landlord and he said that the former tenants had a dog, I am not sure whether they can still smell the dog or something and that they therefore need to mark...

Buns are mysterious

Yogurt should not be given to buns.... sorry :wave: It's just that buns can not tolerate high levels of calcium or process dairy foods properly.

Probiotics are a very GOOD idea in some cases.... but your vet may not be so familiar with rabbit medicine as some here in the UK. Generally the best probiotics are ones which are especially designed for buns:
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1180 or Biolapis or Avipro. Hopefully you can find or order these to Iceland?! :? Or perhaps your vet if willing will look into stocking them for other rabbit clients?

Jenova - licking is an odd one and sort of linked to grooming but can often become a comfort thing. Does your bun have a bunny friend by any chance? My bunny boy spends ages licking his wifey bun, in her absence he will lick the carpet, esp after drinking :?:lol: his blanket he is lying on and his bunny fluffy toys.. not a lot though, just a few licks here and there... it is a comfort thing with him. Have you considered there may be salt on the wall? I only say this as our cat used to lick the wall for hours! :roll::lol:
I expect it is a combination of misdirected grooming, comfort and perhaps a nice taste? Yeah I agree, don't stress him out with his litter training, it could make him learn some negative associations, esp if he does not understand that what he is doing is wrong - because it probably isn't wrong to him. I would persist with putting extra trays down to cover the areas he poos on most - and try and work on associating latrine with a tray by reducing the space he can use to use the carpet... does that make sense? It is a way of making an association without having to touch him or say anything to him.

 

[Jenova]

Yup, that makes a lot of sense.

He's now started to eat his 'normal' poos. He's a strange one.