purplebumble
Warren Veteran
i found a site selling allen and page herb and fibre rabbit food..pellets i thought..but it was ok as i saw it here too..
oh noooo its not allen and page at all. its exactly the food in the picture!! definately NOT allen and page
im concerned as its ss i feed my buns..they will not touch excel and ss is playing havoc even in reduced quantities..only since the new improved version!
so i thought allen and page..oh no now what do i do?
this is whats arrived...
http://www.naturalpetfoodcompany.com/rabprod.htm
i am nearly out of ss and i really dont know what to do!!
they tried a little of it and of course thought yum but the pellets all went too in it and even the ss i mixed it with!
sadly looking at some ingredients..nuts sunflower seeds i know its fat producing..
with bertie weighing in at 15lb 1oz and bif well i hate to say this but shes a lard ball..and i have no idea why! no treats..reduced amount of pellets..so even if shes eatng berties share why is bertie piling it on too!?
i could feed it as a topping on top of ss but maybe i should just cry at the monetary loss and search for something else..i dont want to feed a mix but i have to say it has loads of lovely grasses in it and the pellets are 2 different sizes..but with 2 buns i wont know whos eating what will i..
oh my
can anyone recommend something.quickly please! and then once i have some food to keep going if theres anyone local whod make use of it..like for bolstering bunnies up..pm me for directions!
bang bang..my head against brick wall..oh why do buns have to be so darned akward!!
maybe this article should encourage me to feed more of a hay and veggie diet despite the tummy probs bif has and now poor bertie from travelling to diferent vets with her shilst she has stuf done and tests..
Rabbits
In the past, rabbits have been kept alone in cramped hutches. Only a lucky few were allowed into the garden to eat fresh grass and other greens or had the companionship of other rabbits. Most, however, have been neglected.
Nowadays some have large open runs with abundant fresh grass and plenty to keep them occupied whilst others are mischievous house rabbits with a tendency to chew electrical wiring. Whilst children might enjoy caring for rabbits, they need adult supervision partly to ensure they are looked after properly and partly because they can be temperamental and bite, scratch and kick. Rabbits, like cats and dogs, need to have company, plenty to occupy them and to be fed properly. Wherever you keep your rabbit, the most important aspect of keeping rabbits is correct feeding.
What should we feed our pet rabbits?
Rabbits are designed to eat fresh grass, grass and more grass. It’s that simple. Wild rabbits eat grass. All rabbits need is fresh grass, lots of it. Ideally rabbits should be allowed to graze for several hours a day. If grass isn’t available then you can feed good quality hay instead. From weaning onwards that’s all they really need. If they are outdoor rabbits, some of the pelleted foods may provide a few extra calories in winter to keep them warm but they aren’t essential (after all, they do without them in the wild). Plenty of clean fresh dry bedding would probably be more useful. Rabbits need at least 18% fibre in the diet. This is important for a number of reasons.
To keep the guts moving normally and allow food to move through the guts and be absorbed.
Keeping bunny chewing for a long time to prevent boredom and fur chewing.
Wear down the teeth. Rabbit’s teeth grow continuously, so they need to wear down at the same rate as they grow otherwise dental problems occur (such as formation of sharp points (spurs) which may lacerate the cheek and tongue or painful tooth root abscesses. Some of these problems are irreversible).
Stimulate the appetite and encourage them to eat the soft droppings (caecotrophs).
Provide food for the beneficial "friendly" microbes in the gut, which break down the fibre producing vitamins, proteins and energy.
Feeding the friendly bacteria allows them to grow and prevent harmful bacteria from causing problems by crowding them out.
Make the droppings firmer and bulkier, preventing both diarrhoea and constipation
What is meant to happen?
If everything’s working well you should see a happy active rabbit and a healthy pile of rabbit droppings. Rabbits produce two types of stool. The ones you see should be hard dry and bulky. Rabbits also produce some soft droppings (caecotrophs); normally you won’t see these as they eat them. These contain partly digested fibre, fatty acids and vitamins B and K, produced by the friendly microbes in the gut. They also contain the friendly microbes themselves, continuing to digest the fibre. These are essential for good health.
Why do rabbits eat their own droppings?
This is an adaptation to a highly fibrous diet, poor in nutrients. The larger more indigestible pieces of fibre are passed straight through the intestines first time producing the hard droppings. The smaller more digestible pieces are passed into a part of the intestine called the caecum to be fermented. These are then emptied into the large intestine to produce the soft droppings (caecotrophs). By passing the fibre through the gut twice, it allows the food to continue being digested by the bacteria in the rabbit’s gut. This produces energy and protein allowing the rabbits to maximise the amount of nutrition gained from the food.
Why are concentrate foods so bad?
Many of the concentrate foods are based on diets originally designed for commercial rabbit production and are high in calories and low in fibre, the reverse of the natural diet. This encourages the rapid growth required for meat production. Whilst useful for commercial rabbit farming, it is unnecessary and in the long term detrimental to the pet rabbit, which doesn’t need to grow rapidly. It is more important to maintain gut health and motility and to prevent obesity and dental problems.
Feeding too much of any commercial dry food (pellets/ mix) can also cause the following problems:
Intestinal problems - soft stools, diarrhoea, sticky bottoms and fly strike.
Obesity
Bone and tooth problems
Intestinal problems
Concentrate diets are too low in fibre and too high in calories. Rabbits need at least 18% fibre. Many commercial diets found in pet stores have less than 10% fibre. These if fed as the main part of the diet lead to higher levels of intestinal problems, including diarrhoea which can sometimes be fatal. Sudden changes in diet can also cause diarrhoea.
Soft stools
The soft stools are simply normal but uneaten caecotrophs. If your rabbit isn’t eating the caecotrophs it may be for a number of reasons. It may be painful e.g. arthritis or dental disease or simply that the daily routine in being interrupted. More likely however, is that you are feeding too much concentrate food (pellets/ rabbit mix). This provides too many calories so there are fewer stimuli to eat the caecotrophs. Also the extra calories can result in obesity which may make it physically impossible to reach the anus to eat the caecotrophs. It may seem unpleasant to us but eating the caecotrophs is an important source of vitamins and other nutrients.
"My rabbit produces both hard droppings and soft droppings but the soft droppings are sloppier and smellier than usual." This may happen if we feed too many sugary foods (some parts of the rabbit mixes or feeding too many sugary fruits such as banana and apple) and too little fibre. This causes the overgrowth of yeast which crowds out the friendly bacteria and a change in acidity of the gut which reduces intestinal movement. These changes produce the smellier, sloppier caecotrophs and also create an opportunity for harmful bacteria to grow.
Sticky bottoms
Either soft stools or diarrhoea may result in the faeces becoming caked around the bottom. Not only is this unpleasant and uncomfortable in itself, it can result in a number of other painful problems.
Dermatitis - the faeces are irritant and scald the skin causing a painful dermatitis.
The increased bacterial contamination around the genitals can result in urinary tract infections.
Fly Strike - Flies lay eggs on the soiled and wet fur, the faeces and irritated skin. These hatch into voracious maggots, which not only eat the faeces but also start to eat into the rabbit’s skin itself. They can cause severe damage in a matter of hours, proceeding from the skin to eat into the deeper tissues. This is intensely painful and may result in the unfortunate rabbit being euthanised.
Obesity
In the wild, rabbits would spend many hours grazing on grass and other plants. This would be low in calories and high in fibre. They would also seek out sweeter and higher calorie food - young shoots or buds or fruit in the autumn, but wouldn’t find this often. When we present them with an abundance of calories in the form of rabbit mix they could gain all the essential calories in half an hour but rabbits are designed to graze all day and so they then continue to eat even after eating all the calories they need and so become fat.
Dental Problems
Rabbits teeth grow continuously to ensure there is always enough tooth to chew grass. Normally the correct chewing action + plenty of fibrous food (grass and hay) ensure that the teeth are worn down as fast as they grow and are kept aligned. If the teeth aren’t worn down by chewing enough fibrous foods, the teeth overgrow. The only thing that is hard enough to wear teeth down is other teeth. So why do my rabbit’s teeth need fibrous food? Simply because it encourages your rabbit to chew for long enough to wear the teeth down - nothing else will do this. So if you feed to much rabbit mix or pellets your rabbit will not have the appetite for hay and grass and so not chew long enough to wear the teeth down.
What happens if the teeth overgrow?
As the back teeth overgrow, a number of things happen:
They start to force the jaws apart which means the front teeth no longer meet; this prevents them from wearing down so they overgrow - this can be seen from the outside.
Before you see this, the overgrowing cheek teeth start to put pressure on each other pushing them into their bony sockets. This is painful. It also damages the bone in the socket making it soft so the teeth sink deeper into the bone. Lack of calcium in the diet due to excessive feeding of cereal based rabbit food results in softer bone and makes this even worse. As the teeth continue to grow they push deeper into the bone until the lower teeth start to push out of the bottom of the lower jaw (you may be able to feel bumps on the bottom jaw). The upper teeth start to push up towards the tear ducts and eyes.
As the teeth overgrow, the correct chewing action is lost so the teeth start to grow in abnormal directions allowing spurs to form. The lower teeth tend to form spurs towards the tongue and the upper teeth towards the cheek. These can become sharp and cut into the tongue and cheek.
Dental abscesses can form at the points where the tooth roots break through the damaged bone. These will require surgery and dental treatment.
"What sort of hay and what else can I feed?"
Grass and hay should be available in unlimited amounts - it’s what rabbits are designed to eat and what we should feed them. Meadow hay and seed hay (Timothy/Rye) are good. Alfalfa hay can also be fed as a treat but has too much calcium for normal feeding. Make sure it is fresh green hay and not yellowing or mouldy. Good quality hay should be available from good pet stores or if you are using large amounts try buying bales from an agricultural merchant or from a stables / livery yard as hay fed to horses is usually good quality. You could try kiln dried grass for variety such as Spillers redigrass - again available from agricultural merchants or stables or in smaller quantities from some pet stores. Leave some hay in / around the litter tray - rabbits like to eat whilst on the loo.
"Grass is boring I don’t want to feed grass and hay alone."
Other foods you can try:
· Fresh herbs - basil, mint, parsley, coriander leaves. Garden weeds such dandelions, clover, docks, groundsel, bramble leaves/ roots, raspberry leaves, sow thistle, goose grass, plantain and others - these are all good sources of fibre.
· Small amounts of fresh vegetables - more of a treat than a significant part of the diet: Kale, cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, mange tout, and cauliflower leaves. A mixed diet including 3 different types of these a day in small quantities is safe.
· Small amounts of pellets may be given as a treat but ideally rely on grass and hay. Try to avoid the cereal mixes as they encourage selective feeding and deficiencies especially calcium deficiency. Ensure any pellets / mix are fresh - ideally buy those in a sealed packet as the mixes in loose bins may have been open to the air for weeks and lost much of their vitamin content. Once bought, keep it cool and dry and if you still have large amounts of pellets/ mix left after 4-6 weeks the same applies - throw it away and get a smaller bag.
Vitamins, Salt and Mineral blocks should not be necessary if you are feeding the right diet. Excess minerals may result in an overdose and cause disease in itself. Please do not feed salty or sugary snacks such as crisps, bread, chocolate bars, breakfast cereal and a number of the treats available in pet shops.
"So I’m feeding the wrong type of diet and want to change"
Change the diet gradually over 2-3 weeks as any sudden chances may cause diarrhoea. Aim to cut out the pellets/mix altogether if possible. Your rabbit may have a temper tantrum if there isn’t enough of the favourite mix. This is normal - ignore it and continue to reduce the rations. If you are having problems feel free to call us.
"I’ve just bought a young rabbit and I was told to feed rabbit mix alone and that fresh grass would cause diarrhoea"
Young rabbits in the wild eat grass and hay from an early age without any problems. Change slowly onto the hay/grass based diet as above.
"I’ve introduced the hay and cut down the mix but my rabbit doesn’t seem to be eating any more hay. How do I know he’s eating enough fibre?"
It may be that he wasn’t eating all of the mix provided before - keep cutting down. As he starts to eat more hay and less mix, the droppings should start to increase in size.
Ross Worrall MA, Vet MB, MRCVS has a particular interest in rabbit medicine
oh noooo its not allen and page at all. its exactly the food in the picture!! definately NOT allen and page
im concerned as its ss i feed my buns..they will not touch excel and ss is playing havoc even in reduced quantities..only since the new improved version!
so i thought allen and page..oh no now what do i do?
this is whats arrived...
http://www.naturalpetfoodcompany.com/rabprod.htm
i am nearly out of ss and i really dont know what to do!!
they tried a little of it and of course thought yum but the pellets all went too in it and even the ss i mixed it with!
sadly looking at some ingredients..nuts sunflower seeds i know its fat producing..
with bertie weighing in at 15lb 1oz and bif well i hate to say this but shes a lard ball..and i have no idea why! no treats..reduced amount of pellets..so even if shes eatng berties share why is bertie piling it on too!?
i could feed it as a topping on top of ss but maybe i should just cry at the monetary loss and search for something else..i dont want to feed a mix but i have to say it has loads of lovely grasses in it and the pellets are 2 different sizes..but with 2 buns i wont know whos eating what will i..
oh my
can anyone recommend something.quickly please! and then once i have some food to keep going if theres anyone local whod make use of it..like for bolstering bunnies up..pm me for directions!
bang bang..my head against brick wall..oh why do buns have to be so darned akward!!
maybe this article should encourage me to feed more of a hay and veggie diet despite the tummy probs bif has and now poor bertie from travelling to diferent vets with her shilst she has stuf done and tests..
Rabbits
In the past, rabbits have been kept alone in cramped hutches. Only a lucky few were allowed into the garden to eat fresh grass and other greens or had the companionship of other rabbits. Most, however, have been neglected.
Nowadays some have large open runs with abundant fresh grass and plenty to keep them occupied whilst others are mischievous house rabbits with a tendency to chew electrical wiring. Whilst children might enjoy caring for rabbits, they need adult supervision partly to ensure they are looked after properly and partly because they can be temperamental and bite, scratch and kick. Rabbits, like cats and dogs, need to have company, plenty to occupy them and to be fed properly. Wherever you keep your rabbit, the most important aspect of keeping rabbits is correct feeding.
What should we feed our pet rabbits?
Rabbits are designed to eat fresh grass, grass and more grass. It’s that simple. Wild rabbits eat grass. All rabbits need is fresh grass, lots of it. Ideally rabbits should be allowed to graze for several hours a day. If grass isn’t available then you can feed good quality hay instead. From weaning onwards that’s all they really need. If they are outdoor rabbits, some of the pelleted foods may provide a few extra calories in winter to keep them warm but they aren’t essential (after all, they do without them in the wild). Plenty of clean fresh dry bedding would probably be more useful. Rabbits need at least 18% fibre in the diet. This is important for a number of reasons.
To keep the guts moving normally and allow food to move through the guts and be absorbed.
Keeping bunny chewing for a long time to prevent boredom and fur chewing.
Wear down the teeth. Rabbit’s teeth grow continuously, so they need to wear down at the same rate as they grow otherwise dental problems occur (such as formation of sharp points (spurs) which may lacerate the cheek and tongue or painful tooth root abscesses. Some of these problems are irreversible).
Stimulate the appetite and encourage them to eat the soft droppings (caecotrophs).
Provide food for the beneficial "friendly" microbes in the gut, which break down the fibre producing vitamins, proteins and energy.
Feeding the friendly bacteria allows them to grow and prevent harmful bacteria from causing problems by crowding them out.
Make the droppings firmer and bulkier, preventing both diarrhoea and constipation
What is meant to happen?
If everything’s working well you should see a happy active rabbit and a healthy pile of rabbit droppings. Rabbits produce two types of stool. The ones you see should be hard dry and bulky. Rabbits also produce some soft droppings (caecotrophs); normally you won’t see these as they eat them. These contain partly digested fibre, fatty acids and vitamins B and K, produced by the friendly microbes in the gut. They also contain the friendly microbes themselves, continuing to digest the fibre. These are essential for good health.
Why do rabbits eat their own droppings?
This is an adaptation to a highly fibrous diet, poor in nutrients. The larger more indigestible pieces of fibre are passed straight through the intestines first time producing the hard droppings. The smaller more digestible pieces are passed into a part of the intestine called the caecum to be fermented. These are then emptied into the large intestine to produce the soft droppings (caecotrophs). By passing the fibre through the gut twice, it allows the food to continue being digested by the bacteria in the rabbit’s gut. This produces energy and protein allowing the rabbits to maximise the amount of nutrition gained from the food.
Why are concentrate foods so bad?
Many of the concentrate foods are based on diets originally designed for commercial rabbit production and are high in calories and low in fibre, the reverse of the natural diet. This encourages the rapid growth required for meat production. Whilst useful for commercial rabbit farming, it is unnecessary and in the long term detrimental to the pet rabbit, which doesn’t need to grow rapidly. It is more important to maintain gut health and motility and to prevent obesity and dental problems.
Feeding too much of any commercial dry food (pellets/ mix) can also cause the following problems:
Intestinal problems - soft stools, diarrhoea, sticky bottoms and fly strike.
Obesity
Bone and tooth problems
Intestinal problems
Concentrate diets are too low in fibre and too high in calories. Rabbits need at least 18% fibre. Many commercial diets found in pet stores have less than 10% fibre. These if fed as the main part of the diet lead to higher levels of intestinal problems, including diarrhoea which can sometimes be fatal. Sudden changes in diet can also cause diarrhoea.
Soft stools
The soft stools are simply normal but uneaten caecotrophs. If your rabbit isn’t eating the caecotrophs it may be for a number of reasons. It may be painful e.g. arthritis or dental disease or simply that the daily routine in being interrupted. More likely however, is that you are feeding too much concentrate food (pellets/ rabbit mix). This provides too many calories so there are fewer stimuli to eat the caecotrophs. Also the extra calories can result in obesity which may make it physically impossible to reach the anus to eat the caecotrophs. It may seem unpleasant to us but eating the caecotrophs is an important source of vitamins and other nutrients.
"My rabbit produces both hard droppings and soft droppings but the soft droppings are sloppier and smellier than usual." This may happen if we feed too many sugary foods (some parts of the rabbit mixes or feeding too many sugary fruits such as banana and apple) and too little fibre. This causes the overgrowth of yeast which crowds out the friendly bacteria and a change in acidity of the gut which reduces intestinal movement. These changes produce the smellier, sloppier caecotrophs and also create an opportunity for harmful bacteria to grow.
Sticky bottoms
Either soft stools or diarrhoea may result in the faeces becoming caked around the bottom. Not only is this unpleasant and uncomfortable in itself, it can result in a number of other painful problems.
Dermatitis - the faeces are irritant and scald the skin causing a painful dermatitis.
The increased bacterial contamination around the genitals can result in urinary tract infections.
Fly Strike - Flies lay eggs on the soiled and wet fur, the faeces and irritated skin. These hatch into voracious maggots, which not only eat the faeces but also start to eat into the rabbit’s skin itself. They can cause severe damage in a matter of hours, proceeding from the skin to eat into the deeper tissues. This is intensely painful and may result in the unfortunate rabbit being euthanised.
Obesity
In the wild, rabbits would spend many hours grazing on grass and other plants. This would be low in calories and high in fibre. They would also seek out sweeter and higher calorie food - young shoots or buds or fruit in the autumn, but wouldn’t find this often. When we present them with an abundance of calories in the form of rabbit mix they could gain all the essential calories in half an hour but rabbits are designed to graze all day and so they then continue to eat even after eating all the calories they need and so become fat.
Dental Problems
Rabbits teeth grow continuously to ensure there is always enough tooth to chew grass. Normally the correct chewing action + plenty of fibrous food (grass and hay) ensure that the teeth are worn down as fast as they grow and are kept aligned. If the teeth aren’t worn down by chewing enough fibrous foods, the teeth overgrow. The only thing that is hard enough to wear teeth down is other teeth. So why do my rabbit’s teeth need fibrous food? Simply because it encourages your rabbit to chew for long enough to wear the teeth down - nothing else will do this. So if you feed to much rabbit mix or pellets your rabbit will not have the appetite for hay and grass and so not chew long enough to wear the teeth down.
What happens if the teeth overgrow?
As the back teeth overgrow, a number of things happen:
They start to force the jaws apart which means the front teeth no longer meet; this prevents them from wearing down so they overgrow - this can be seen from the outside.
Before you see this, the overgrowing cheek teeth start to put pressure on each other pushing them into their bony sockets. This is painful. It also damages the bone in the socket making it soft so the teeth sink deeper into the bone. Lack of calcium in the diet due to excessive feeding of cereal based rabbit food results in softer bone and makes this even worse. As the teeth continue to grow they push deeper into the bone until the lower teeth start to push out of the bottom of the lower jaw (you may be able to feel bumps on the bottom jaw). The upper teeth start to push up towards the tear ducts and eyes.
As the teeth overgrow, the correct chewing action is lost so the teeth start to grow in abnormal directions allowing spurs to form. The lower teeth tend to form spurs towards the tongue and the upper teeth towards the cheek. These can become sharp and cut into the tongue and cheek.
Dental abscesses can form at the points where the tooth roots break through the damaged bone. These will require surgery and dental treatment.
"What sort of hay and what else can I feed?"
Grass and hay should be available in unlimited amounts - it’s what rabbits are designed to eat and what we should feed them. Meadow hay and seed hay (Timothy/Rye) are good. Alfalfa hay can also be fed as a treat but has too much calcium for normal feeding. Make sure it is fresh green hay and not yellowing or mouldy. Good quality hay should be available from good pet stores or if you are using large amounts try buying bales from an agricultural merchant or from a stables / livery yard as hay fed to horses is usually good quality. You could try kiln dried grass for variety such as Spillers redigrass - again available from agricultural merchants or stables or in smaller quantities from some pet stores. Leave some hay in / around the litter tray - rabbits like to eat whilst on the loo.
"Grass is boring I don’t want to feed grass and hay alone."
Other foods you can try:
· Fresh herbs - basil, mint, parsley, coriander leaves. Garden weeds such dandelions, clover, docks, groundsel, bramble leaves/ roots, raspberry leaves, sow thistle, goose grass, plantain and others - these are all good sources of fibre.
· Small amounts of fresh vegetables - more of a treat than a significant part of the diet: Kale, cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, mange tout, and cauliflower leaves. A mixed diet including 3 different types of these a day in small quantities is safe.
· Small amounts of pellets may be given as a treat but ideally rely on grass and hay. Try to avoid the cereal mixes as they encourage selective feeding and deficiencies especially calcium deficiency. Ensure any pellets / mix are fresh - ideally buy those in a sealed packet as the mixes in loose bins may have been open to the air for weeks and lost much of their vitamin content. Once bought, keep it cool and dry and if you still have large amounts of pellets/ mix left after 4-6 weeks the same applies - throw it away and get a smaller bag.
Vitamins, Salt and Mineral blocks should not be necessary if you are feeding the right diet. Excess minerals may result in an overdose and cause disease in itself. Please do not feed salty or sugary snacks such as crisps, bread, chocolate bars, breakfast cereal and a number of the treats available in pet shops.
"So I’m feeding the wrong type of diet and want to change"
Change the diet gradually over 2-3 weeks as any sudden chances may cause diarrhoea. Aim to cut out the pellets/mix altogether if possible. Your rabbit may have a temper tantrum if there isn’t enough of the favourite mix. This is normal - ignore it and continue to reduce the rations. If you are having problems feel free to call us.
"I’ve just bought a young rabbit and I was told to feed rabbit mix alone and that fresh grass would cause diarrhoea"
Young rabbits in the wild eat grass and hay from an early age without any problems. Change slowly onto the hay/grass based diet as above.
"I’ve introduced the hay and cut down the mix but my rabbit doesn’t seem to be eating any more hay. How do I know he’s eating enough fibre?"
It may be that he wasn’t eating all of the mix provided before - keep cutting down. As he starts to eat more hay and less mix, the droppings should start to increase in size.
Ross Worrall MA, Vet MB, MRCVS has a particular interest in rabbit medicine
