Humping [apart again]

[Silverleaf]

Meeple and Nemesis are 10 weeks old tomorrow, and are brothers. Last night after a few hours of playtime in the living room, Nemesis started humping Meeple and then basically held him down in that position for a minute. Meeple didn't protest. This happened a couple of times but they were eating together and snuggling up as usual when I shut them back in the cage before I went to bed (I stayed up watching them for a while just to make sure they were getting on okay).

He did the same thing tonight. I had to intervene a few times because Nemesis mounted Meeple's head and I know that's dangerous. After a few times Meeple started to move away and there were a couple of very light nips from both rabbits and a little circling - I think Meeple was getting a little annoyed at the humping and Nemesis was frustrated that I moved him off Meeple's head. Ushering them back into their cage settled them down and they went to sleep near each other.

So I know I'm supposed to let them sort out dominance issues by themselves (except if they really fight or hump each other's heads) but I really don't want their bond to break because they've been getting on very well. So what do I do here? I don't want to separate them but I don't want them to fight either. And obviously I can't supervise them 24/7.

Suspecting that they might be getting hormonal I had a look at their genital area for dropped testicles (they were NOT happy about that so I didn't get a very good look as it's hard to keep a struggling rabbit still and check for plums at the same time, and they are Nethies so tiny bunnies anyway, not easy to see).

Now I know what an adult male looks like down there, but I'm not so familiar with young bucks. I looked at the genitals when I picked them up two weeks ago, and a week ago the vet who vaccinated them confirmed their sex for me and said there was no sign of testicles yet. But today I can see little pink patches which I don't remember seeing on them before. Does this mean they've dropped? Nemesis's were bigger than Meeple's despite him being a lot smaller than his brother.

And we've had a few small pees on the floor blanket tonight (despite them being very good about using the litter boxes normally) and more then the usual amount of poos scattered around the room. Territorial behaviour, right?

Obviously I want to get them in for neutering as early as I can to minimise the potential for fighting so they can stay bonded. So how do I tell if they're ready?

 

[tonibun]

I don't think the Vet would castrate them so soon, are you sure of their age? You will have to monitor closely now as their relationship is slowly changing and this could culminate in a nasty fight, sadly. I have 2 brothers together but they never showed any signs of dominance etc right up to the time I had them neutered at around 4 months. So I would think once humping starts it really is time to think are you going to risk keeping them together.

 

[MightyMax]

Meeple and Nemesis are 10 weeks old tomorrow, and are brothers. Last night after a few hours of playtime in the living room, Nemesis started humping Meeple and then basically held him down in that position for a minute. Meeple didn't protest. This happened a couple of times but they were eating together and snuggling up as usual when I shut them back in the cage before I went to bed (I stayed up watching them for a while just to make sure they were getting on okay).

He did the same thing tonight. I had to intervene a few times because Nemesis mounted Meeple's head and I know that's dangerous. After a few times Meeple started to move away and there were a couple of very light nips from both rabbits and a little circling - I think Meeple was getting a little annoyed at the humping and Nemesis was frustrated that I moved him off Meeple's head. Ushering them back into their cage settled them down and they went to sleep near each other.

So I know I'm supposed to let them sort out dominance issues by themselves (except if they really fight or hump each other's heads) but I really don't want their bond to break because they've been getting on very well. So what do I do here? I don't want to separate them but I don't want them to fight either. And obviously I can't supervise them 24/7.

Suspecting that they might be getting hormonal I had a look at their genital area for dropped testicles (they were NOT happy about that so I didn't get a very good look as it's hard to keep a struggling rabbit still and check for plums at the same time, and they are Nethies so tiny bunnies anyway, not easy to see).

Now I know what an adult male looks like down there, but I'm not so familiar with young bucks. I looked at the genitals when I picked them up two weeks ago, and a week ago the vet who vaccinated them confirmed their sex for me and said there was no sign of testicles yet. But today I can see little pink patches which I don't remember seeing on them before. Does this mean they've dropped? Nemesis's were bigger than Meeple's despite him being a lot smaller than his brother.

And we've had a few small pees on the floor blanket tonight (despite them being very good about using the litter boxes normally) and more then the usual amount of poos scattered around the room. Territorial behaviour, right?

Obviously I want to get them in for neutering as early as I can to minimise the potential for fighting so they can stay bonded. So how do I tell if they're ready?

Castration *can* actually be performed at 10 - 12 weeks if the testicles have descended, although most vets would prefer to wait a little longer. Your (hopefully experienced) vet will tell you ....

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Meeple and Nemesis are 10 weeks old tomorrow, and are brothers. Last night after a few hours of playtime in the living room, Nemesis started humping Meeple and then basically held him down in that position for a minute. Meeple didn't protest. This happened a couple of times but they were eating together and snuggling up as usual when I shut them back in the cage before I went to bed (I stayed up watching them for a while just to make sure they were getting on okay).

He did the same thing tonight. I had to intervene a few times because Nemesis mounted Meeple's head and I know that's dangerous. After a few times Meeple started to move away and there were a couple of very light nips from both rabbits and a little circling - I think Meeple was getting a little annoyed at the humping and Nemesis was frustrated that I moved him off Meeple's head. Ushering them back into their cage settled them down and they went to sleep near each other.

So I know I'm supposed to let them sort out dominance issues by themselves (except if they really fight or hump each other's heads) but I really don't want their bond to break because they've been getting on very well. So what do I do here? I don't want to separate them but I don't want them to fight either. And obviously I can't supervise them 24/7.

Suspecting that they might be getting hormonal I had a look at their genital area for dropped testicles (they were NOT happy about that so I didn't get a very good look as it's hard to keep a struggling rabbit still and check for plums at the same time, and they are Nethies so tiny bunnies anyway, not easy to see).

Now I know what an adult male looks like down there, but I'm not so familiar with young bucks. I looked at the genitals when I picked them up two weeks ago, and a week ago the vet who vaccinated them confirmed their sex for me and said there was no sign of testicles yet. But today I can see little pink patches which I don't remember seeing on them before. Does this mean they've dropped? Nemesis's were bigger than Meeple's despite him being a lot smaller than his brother.

And we've had a few small pees on the floor blanket tonight (despite them being very good about using the litter boxes normally) and more then the usual amount of poos scattered around the room. Territorial behaviour, right?

Obviously I want to get them in for neutering as early as I can to minimise the potential for fighting so they can stay bonded. So how do I tell if they're ready?

I'd get the Vet to have a feel of their 'bits' again. Bucks can draw their testicles back up into their abdominal cavity if the Buck feels threatened in any way. But a Bunny Savvy Vet should be able to tell if it is appropriate to castrate them now.

As you say that the Bucks are now exhibiting some hormonal behaviour I personally would not leave them together unsupervised. A fight will occur and injuries sustained can be extremely serious. So far you have managed to intervene, but what if something kicks off when you are not around.

Re-bonding two Bucks after both have been castrated is perfectly possible. But if said Bucks had had a chance to fight prior to castration it is highly unlikely you'd get them together again. Also, whilst I understand that you dont want their bond to break down, leaving them together now they are so near puberty (based on their behaviour) a broken bond is far more likely to occur than if you keep them apart until they have been castrated and for a few weeks after to allow their hormones to settle down.

 

[Silverleaf]

Thank you everyone, you've confirmed what I suspected but was hoping wouldn't happen.

As much as I don't want to break their bond now (because apart from those two incidents they are pretty snuggly and they've behaved perfectly in their cage), I don't think it's worth the risk of fighting. And their hormones are only going to get worse so the longer they are together, the worse the risk.

If only I didn't feel so guilty about it! I know it's sensible, but it just hurts my heart to separate when they get on so well 99% of the time.

Anyway, it's done now. Meeple's in the emergency cage now waiting for me to finish meshing the pen so I can attach it and give him a bit more space. Nemesis is in the permanent cage for now. I plan to swap them over every day so they get to share the familiar cage. And this is giving me more guilt because the emergency cage plus pen is smaller than the regular cage.

I'm thinking I'll try letting them out together so they can have some contact and exercise at the same time and I can closely supervise them and separate immediately if anything dodgy happens. If they can't be out together then they'll have to timeshare!

And we'll head off to the vets again tomorrow for plum feeling. I checked again today but I'm really not experienced enough to know what's going on down there! All I know is that it's really had to see anything with Meeple (but he does have pink patches of skin in that area) and Nemesis's bits are much more obvious and may be protruding slightly. Like I said before, I know what adult intact bucks look like but not youngsters. Google image search isn't helping that much!

 

[Silverleaf]

I have to admit I cried this evening. I hate separating them. They've never been apart their whole lives, and here I am keeping them away from each other. I'm staying strong but it's killing me.

My head knows you're right and that it's not worth risking a fight. I know. But my heart is breaking and insists it's the wrong decision. My only consolation is that they are eating and drinking and despite some scratching to get out of the cages they are taking it much better than I am.

 

[MightyMax]

I have to admit I cried this evening. I hate separating them. They've never been apart their whole lives, and here I am keeping them away from each other. I'm staying strong but it's killing me.

My head knows you're right and that it's not worth risking a fight. I know. But my heart is breaking and insists it's the wrong decision. My only consolation is that they are eating and drinking and despite some scratching to get out of the cages they are taking it much better than I am.

I am sorry you've felt you had to separate them. Personally, if they were going to be neutered soon and as you said they got on 99% of the time, I never would have pulled them apart. But you have to do what your gut tells you is the best way forward.

Hopefully you will be able to rebond them again. Hormones take about 3 months to settle down, so please don't assume that a week or two after neutering the situation will be any different to how it is now. But eventually the hormones do settle - with minor eruptions as for all bunnies, male and female

 

[tonibun]

Well done! I think you have done the right thing.

 

[Family_Moose]

We went through this with the girls! At 5 months Sugar began a determined onslaught of showing her sister she was boss! They were separated on Decemeber 23rd & booked to be spayed a week later!
They were rebonded 3 months later due to timings and now 6 months after getting back together they have a pretty good relationship & survived a house move involving 2 different boarding locations!

I remember sobbing my heart out when they were apart and being terrified they wouldn't rebond but after a few 'dating' attempts a concerted effort got them back together. Separating before any major aggression I'm sure helped!

Good luck!

 

[Silverleaf]

I am sorry you've felt you had to separate them. Personally, if they were going to be neutered soon and as you said they got on 99% of the time, I never would have pulled them apart. But you have to do what your gut tells you is the best way forward.

Hopefully you will be able to rebond them again. Hormones take about 3 months to settle down, so please don't assume that a week or two after neutering the situation will be any different to how it is now. But eventually the hormones do settle - with minor eruptions as for all bunnies, male and female

The problem is, I don't know if the testicles have descended yet. If they haven't, it could be ages before we can neuter.

It didn't seem worth the risk of fighting, because of course a proper fight might mean they could never be rebonded. Right now, I don't know if it was the right choice, but I would never forgive myself if they fought because I left them together.

They had a short supervised playtime together tonight and they behaved beautifully with Nemesis not even trying to hump. Both were more interested in binkying and nibbling the dried forage I put out for them, and mostly just ignored each other. If they continue to behave I plan to let them have lots of playtime together in the hope that they'll stay at least semi-bonded.

 

[Silverleaf]

Well done! I think you have done the right thing.

I really hope so. I'm honestly not sure if it was the right decision but it's hard to be impartial when you're so emotionally involved. Hopefully it'll go well.

 

[Silverleaf]

We went through this with the girls! At 5 months Sugar began a determined onslaught of showing her sister she was boss! They were separated on Decemeber 23rd & booked to be spayed a week later!
They were rebonded 3 months later due to timings and now 6 months after getting back together they have a pretty good relationship & survived a house move involving 2 different boarding locations!

I remember sobbing my heart out when they were apart and being terrified they wouldn't rebond but after a few 'dating' attempts a concerted effort got them back together. Separating before any major aggression I'm sure helped!

Good luck!

Thank you! I'm glad it worked out so well for your girls, and I really hope things go smoothly with my boys too.

I think Meeple and Nemesis are trying to work out their relationship. Meeple regularly asks Nemesis to groom him but it usually doesn't work, so maybe Meeple's hormone-influenced response to that is to hump Meeple into submission. They get on really well usually though.

 

[MightyMax]

The problem is, I don't know if the testicles have descended yet. If they haven't, it could be ages before we can neuter.

It didn't seem worth the risk of fighting, because of course a proper fight might mean they could never be rebonded. Right now, I don't know if it was the right choice, but I would never forgive myself if they fought because I left them together.

They had a short supervised playtime together tonight and they behaved beautifully with Nemesis not even trying to hump. Both were more interested in binkying and nibbling the dried forage I put out for them, and mostly just ignored each other. If they continue to behave I plan to let them have lots of playtime together in the hope that they'll stay at least semi-bonded.

I'm not quite sure what leads you to think this? It's not been my experience, in 20 years of working with Rescue Centres and fostering and bonding rabbits

 

[Silverleaf]

I'm not quite sure what leads you to think this? It's not been my experience, in 20 years of working with Rescue Centres and fostering and bonding rabbits

I got it from reading lots of threads on here, and lots of other websites about bonding.

Have I completely misunderstood? :?

 

[Silverleaf]

The boys had another 1hr playtime a little while ago (middle of the night I know, but I'm a night owl type and the bunnies are awake most of the night too). I was hyper-alert for aggression and/or humping, but things were fine on that front.

After all the usual running around and binkying and trying to get into areas they shouldn't, Meeple decided he really wanted Nemesis to groom him. Every time they met he'd push his head under Nemesis, usually under his neck but sometimes under his belly or bottom. Nemesis pretty much ignores this, but after a while he started to put his head down too and several times they ended up flat on the floor nose to nose with neither giving in and grooming the other. I started stroking both of them on the head and base of the ears and they allowed me to do that for a few minutes, and then wandered off.

I can't tell if this increase in "groom me" behaviour is because of hormones/dominance or because they've been missing each other.

 

[tonibun]

This "assumption" that rabbits will be impossible to rebond once they have fought comes from the Cottontails Website. Mairwen has also had years of bonding rabbits so it is interesting to hear another opinion.

I don't think they will be "missing" one another, boys have to grow up and one will be the dominant one, also there has been numerous cases of injuries sometimes fatal between boys, so imo it's best to play safe.

You are the best person to judge your boys of course.

 

[Silverleaf]

Vet nurse saw the boys just now and confirmed that the testicles haven't descended yet.

Worse still, the surgery doesn't neuter until 6 months because of the anaesthetic risk! That sounds far too long to me. I'm sad because they've otherwise been great with my rabbits and now I'll have to find a vet I don't know to do the neuter once their balls drop.

The vet nurse advised keeping them together unless they actually fight, saying they need to sort out the dominance by humping, grooming, etc., so I'm horrible conflicted.

I really don't know what to do for the best. :/

 

[Silverleaf]

This was a difficult decision, but I've put Meeple and Nemesis back together. There was no humping yesterday or today, no sign of aggression at all, just their usual snuggling. They are both clearly more relaxed than they were last night.

Since their testicles haven't descended, it looks like the mounting behaviour was dominance-related rather than sexual/hormonal.

I will of course keep a very close eye on them and separate if there's any aggression. I think it's helpful that I'm on a similar sleep schedule to them - we all sleep during the day - so I'm around during the time they're most active, which means they're more likely to have problems with each other when I'm there to stop it than when I'm in bed.

It's a risk, I know. I'm not 100% sure still that this is right, but I do feel happier seeing them together and they seem happier too.

 

[Silverleaf]

Meeple chased Nemesis and pulled some fur out. I didn't see how it started or what caused it.

They are back in separate cages.

Nemesis seemed scared afterwards and stamped when Meeple approached him (from the other side of the bars, obviously), breathing hard with his body tense. He's calmed down now. Both are uninjured and I feel very thankful they kicked off when I was there to intervene.

It wasn't a fight as such but I'm not letting it get that far. Honestly though, I can't help but feel disappointed and annoyed that things aren't going to plan, and I feel bad for them not having a snuggle buddy anymore.

And it might be months before they even get neutered.

 

[MightyMax]

Meeple chased Nemesis and pulled some fur out. I didn't see how it started or what caused it.

They are back in separate cages.

Nemesis seemed scared afterwards and stamped when Meeple approached him (from the other side of the bars, obviously), breathing hard with his body tense. He's calmed down now. Both are uninjured and I feel very thankful they kicked off when I was there to intervene.

It wasn't a fight as such but I'm not letting it get that far. Honestly though, I can't help but feel disappointed and annoyed that things aren't going to plan, and I feel bad for them not having a snuggle buddy anymore.

And it might be months before they even get neutered.

Do you mind me asking why you got two young male rabbits? Seems like a lot of hard work for you :?