How to correct excessive cecotropes

[Sarah.J]

My bunny Max constantly has excessive cecotropes. He has had problems with mushy "toothpaste" like poos for a few months but they are now forming into grape like cecotropes - problem is he has a lot of them (about 6 left in his pen). I think he eats a few straight from his anus but the rest are just left.

I understand that the cause is a diet that is too rich in protein etc.

He is currently fed:
2 tbsps critical care (for a boost of fibre)
1/2 cup pellets - Oxbow Bunny Basics T
Few bits of fresh veg (he will only eat broccoli, pepper and carrot)

He has access to hay but is not in the least bit interested by it (I've tried lots of different types [ordered the hay selection pack from the Hay Experts along with Burgess herbage, normal timothy, meadow, alfalfa and fresh hay])

Previously (to try and curb the mushy poos) he has been on Fibeplex, protexin professional, Bio-Lapis and Protexin Pro Fibre pellets - none of which helped! The cause of the mushy poo has been investigated thoroughly and now believe it was an adjustment process after his dental op (http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=237583 - Previous thread on his mushy poos)

Any ideas of how to help fix the issue in a bunny who flat out refuses to eat hay!?

 

[yvette]

Ive been led to understand to give less pellets in the case of excess caecotrophs.:wave:
I also give veg/greens/fruit alternate days.
How to make a bun eat hay??? I dont know, but my lot eat more than they used to.Perhaps its just a case of giving less pellets,making hay more available so bun has no choice but to eat if hes hungry????

My lot have all herbs too,rocket and carrot tops,you name it!!
Surely you havent exhausted everything??That is one fussy bunster!!!!xxxx

 

[Elena]

It's the hay that really helps. Does he eat grass?

Mini was like that and until we reduced the mix/pellets so she ate more hay nothing helped. Not even Fibreplex. Also we find if we give too much sweet veg or fruit she gets them so we don't give her carrot apart from as a very rare treat. Recently this year when she went through her moult she got them again mildly but as soon as the moult passed she went back to eating them all as normal.

 

[thumps_]

I take it your bun is now an adult?
I've had the same problem of non hay eating with my bun.
They certainly need fiber for a healthy gut.

Some buns just don't know that hay is food. If young, they often learn to eat it from a good hay eating partner bun. It's by far your best option.

Fresh grass introduced slowly is a very acceptable, & natural alternative, but difficult to obtain in winter. I used to cut it x3 daily to avoid build up of unwanted bacteria, particularly in warm weather.

TBH I never cracked it with Thumps. He gets his very high fiber diet from tree leaves - hawthorn in spring & summer, & dried blackberry leaves in Autumn & winter + nibbling bark from apple/hazel twigs. Once you can increase the fibe intake you can reduce the high nutrient veg & pellets.
It's very hard, & committed work for the owner this way, & makes it difficult for some one else to care for your bun if you have to go away unless you can get him on lawn grass slowly.

 

[Sky-O]

It can be hard because you have to work out what is causing them. Diet (high in sugar or protein), stress, depression, illness can do it too.

So for diet I would suggest eradicating the sugary foods (like carrot) and seeing if reducing his pellets can up his hay ntake (maybe trying the hay experts taster packs).

I would also think about if anything could be stressing him out. Is he lonely? Does he have a lot of space to exercise?

A vet check may also be in order 'just in case'.

Recently I had a girl leaving about the same amout of cecals around and when she was bonded with a friend she became spotless and now leaves nothing. It seems she was lonely and unhappy as a result. So never underestimate things like that too.

 

[Sarah.J]

Hay I've tried:
Different types from the Hay Experts taster pack
Burgess Herbage
Timothy
Meadow (loose and in cookies)
Alfalfa cubes
Readigrass
Fresh hay (not sure of the type)

Tried it... in a hay rack, litter tray, lining the dog bed he sleeps in, bowl, on the floor - nothing!

Have tried reducing his pellet intake slowly but didn't seem to make a difference, he gets one serving at bed time. Apart from the pellets he gets a bit of critical care in the morning (was previously recommended this to help boost his fibre intake) and a small amount of fresh stuff in the afternoon (most times he doesn't touch it).

We've had lots of vet visits since I brought him home in July and couldn't find anything that would point to the problem (dental fine, course of baytril, fecal test, blood test, metacam to see if it was pain related etc.)

He is a single bunny at the moment (only recently been neutered) and the hope is to try and bond him into my pair, although if this doesn't work will have to get him his own friend and keep them separated.

Loneliness may be one cause, he loves to be around people and wants to interact with the other two (unfortunately, Chloe is a big bully so having to introduce them very, very slowly).

He gets plenty of exercise space - he lives in an exercise pen and run about time outside this.

Will have to try and get a hold of some leaves and twigs - is there anywhere you can buy them dried? We live in a inner city flat so vegetation is slightly lacking!

He's 4 years old and don't know anything about his history (he hadn't been at the shelter long). When I got him he was in awful shape and this is pretty much the last hurdle we have to get over in order for him to be in full health.

 

[Nicola1]

It took about 6-8 weeks after I'd made all the changes to Zero's diet to clear up his excess caecotrophs :wave: what I did was:

a) cut down his pellets (Science Selective which are quite large) to 10 a day
b) half his veg portions and only give 'problem' veg such as kale, carrot, broccoli and rocket once a week/once a fortnight. I try and give him herbs rather than veg - dill, parsley, mint and plantain are all good for the digestion
c) I bonded him with Lucy who is an absolute hay monster, and her interest in hay got him interested.

I just read that he is a solo bun, I've found with all my buns but especially with Zero that having a partner has made them eat more hay. I think it's because of the competition. Also cutting back on pellets and veg should encourage more hay eating.

Hay Experts are online and sell lots of dried herbs and leafs like plantain :wave:

I know it's awful but if you're patient and consistent after making the changes it should clear up. How long ago did you make the changes?

 

[prettylupin]

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012&S=1&SourceID=43

 

[thumps_]

One of my thoughts has been that as it has gone on for some time, it's possible that a low fiber high nutrient diet, necessary at the time, has caused his gut to slow down, so he can't really eat the high volumes needed for hay.

Are the caecs like a bunch of tiny black grapes, or more like dark tooth paste?
Are they disgustingly smelly, or don't smell quite right?

My current thought is to try to speed the gut up with leaves, & after about 48 hours try the cut back on high nutrient. See if he'll eat more hay then. I hear you that he hasn't got any spare weight to lose.

The sorts of places you can find blackberries in a town, are in the surrounding hedge of poorly maintained cemetaries/churchyards, or over old graves, in hedges for pedestrian ways, any country parks, disused railway tracks, (often converted to cycle tracks), brownfield sites away from main roads, allotment hedges. They are commoner in older areas.

If you pm me, I'll try to get about a weeks supply of brambles + some blackthorn leaves (used medicinally to stabilise caecal micro organisms + a gut stimulant) over to you, by NDD post. [I'm sorry I can't do more. The whole house is full of leaves drying for my bun with end stage megacolon.]

 

[Boots]

For me I just reduced the amount of pellets and veggies but offered lots of different hays, and that seemed to solve it

Hope you get a good gut balance soon!

 

[Sarah.J]

We are doing a lot better, had a little experiment and stopped the critical care for a couple of days and had 1 excess, gave him some yesterday and there was about 4 excess! So no more critical care for him. Plus I caught him nibbling on some hay the other day, monkey!

Ordered him all the dried herbs, plants etc off the hay experts so hopefully he'll like at least one of them and that will up his fibre intake with out having to receive the critical care every day.

Thank you for the kind offer Thumps, I think will go on a leaf hunt this weekend. Your bunny probably needs it more than mine

Thank you everyone for the advice, have lots of things to try now and hopefully he will soon be on his way back to full health