Badger! UD Post 48 09-04

[Sky-O]

I know, Lionel's story scares me too, and Pearl's. I'm not convinced Badger will be around long enough to get much further than this though. I nearly lost him last night, was expecting to find him dead when I woke up this morning and nearly lost him on the way to the vets today

As selfish as it sounds, he is one of my specials and I need him so much. Someone I regard as my little sister is in hospital at deaths' door and I'm facing losing her, and Badger and know for sure I'll lose Cloud soon. My heart is breaking.

Oh, and to add to that, Hope has decided today he needs a dental. Score!

 

[donnamt]

I know, Lionel's story scares me too, and Pearl's. I'm not convinced Badger will be around long enough to get much further than this though. I nearly lost him last night, was expecting to find him dead when I woke up this morning and nearly lost him on the way to the vets today

As selfish as it sounds, he is one of my specials and I need him so much. Someone I regard as my little sister is in hospital at deaths' door and I'm facing losing her, and Badger and know for sure I'll lose Cloud soon. My heart is breaking.

Oh, and to add to that, Hope has decided today he needs a dental. Score!

every night i go to bed and expect to find pearl dead each morning and every morning shes still going strong.. they have an amazing fighting spirit, pearl had two months of the wrong treatment and 8 months later is still here with a massively wrong heart. dont give up hope hun youll get him treated and youll have many more happy memories to make before he loses that amazing rabbit spirit, have faith in him even if the vets havent figured out whats going on yet

 

[donnamt]

i hope your sister pulls through too xxxxxxx

 

[Sky-O]

I'm too scared to hope or even consider anything other than the worst. The one time I was so determined a bunny survived he died and some of me died with him.

As morbid as it sounds I need to prepare myself. I need to think of life after Badger to ensure there is one, especially for Rosie (his girlie friend). Having said that, I fight with him for as long as he wants to fight.

The problem I'm having right now is working out what is best for him. He gets distressed with his breathing and I can't ease that distress. He gets distressed in the car and I CAN ease that because I can hold him, I think (I drove there today having a panic and thinking I was losing him, with the carry case door open and stroking him whilst driving. Highly illegal but he got there and was much calmer. My vet says when I touch him his heart rate instantly drops, which helps, I'm sure). How long do I allow him to be in a constant state of distress and anxiety?

Cloud, on the other hand, has all sorts of lung and liver issues but is not troubled by his lack of ability to breathe, he gets more stressed if I touch him, so I'm quite happy in the knowledge that he's ok with minimal intervention and he is happy.

Badger isn't happy. Yes, he is lively and has a quality of life, but I wouldn't put him as happy right now. I don't know how to rectify it.

The vet asked me if I wanted a diagnosis and I said I either want to make him better, or comfortable, whatever that may mean. I jsut want what's best for Badger, but I just have no idea what that is anymore.

 

[Sky-O]

i hope your sister pulls through too xxxxxxx

Thanks (she's not my actual sister relative wise, but we've been through so much together I have always looked at her like my little sister).

 

[angeleyes]

I have only just read this but you are describing exactly what happened to my Lionel

I know my vet is a good one but still it took her 6 months to diagnose him and get him on the right treatment, buns are just so difficult What have you tried so far?

 

[donnamt]

sounds like a huge dilemma you have his xrays now, someone might see something and someone might not. have they tried treating him for heart failure? before my vet was sure she put pearl on fortekor for two weeks.. if it was heart failure it would help if it wasnt itd make no difference to her. before that she was on steroids which didnt really help :?

i am learning less stress the better. im not as sure as i was two days ago i would push for a diagnosis at the expense of my bunnys happiness.. today i locked pearl in a carrier to get a pee sample so they could test her kidney function but for what? they cant lower the dose of drugs realistically and let her still live.. so after 3 1/2 hours of hell no wee sample and its taken all day for her to get over the stress.

they have the xrays hun and they can send them to a specialist but theres only so much you can phsically do before he cant take more stress

stress free all the way for me after the day me and pearl have had and if you called it a day to diagnostics i for one would understand 110% and i think so would anyone losing a bunny and wanting them to be happy before anything else

sorry im rambling, thatll be the rum

 

[Sky-O]

First he had a dental. This eased it somewhat.

Then it came back so he started Septrin.

Then we added in Convenia and Metacam and nebulising at the same time.

Then they decided his chest sounded clear and couldn't find anything else wrong, although she did wonder if his heart sounded right.

Then he had and x-ray which revealed nothing.

So then we stopped the Septrin and the Nebulising, and that's where we are now.

 

[Sky-O]

if you called it a day to diagnostics i for one would understand 110% and i think so would anyone losing a bunny and wanting them to be happy before anything else

I blame myself for past bunny deaths. Like serious, gut wrenching guilt everytime I think about them. I don't want to feel that guilt again. I don't ever want to feel I've let down another bunny again. I always base it on what is best for the bunny, but I don't know. I so don't want to get it wrong. He deserves more than me getting it wrong.

 

[joey&bugys 2007]

I have only just read this and I'm so sorry.

My Alfie bun has breathing problems, he first got ill this time last year, I honestly never expected him to last this long but he has

My vet is very good but they don't have a clue what's wrong with Alfie, he has had heart scans/ lung x rays you name it we have tried it. We have decided he has some form of asthma/allergys and is on treatment.

I'm only telling you this so you know your not alone, I'm sorry and I hope you can find something to help Badger

 

[angeleyes]

First he had a dental. This eased it somewhat.

Then it came back so he started Septrin.

Then we added in Convenia and Metacam and nebulising at the same time.

Then they decided his chest sounded clear and couldn't find anything else wrong, although she did wonder if his heart sounded right.

Then he had and x-ray which revealed nothing.

So then we stopped the Septrin and the Nebulising, and that's where we are now.

Thats where we started - dental, then baytril then septrin and finally depocilin.
First x-ray showed nothing either and lungs sounded clear, couldn't find anything wrong, sorry don't mean to scare you hun but the similarities are :shock:
Second xray nearly 6 months later revealed something on the lungs which was sent to a second vet for her opinion and they concluded pneumonia.
I watched him like that for all those months, the mouth breathing especially after being picked up (he to was a snggule bun it wasn't through fear), unable to lie/sit properly and get comfortable, head practically vertical
Maybe you could mention pnuemonia to your vets and see what they think otherwise another xray in a few months might then reveal something.
I'm sorry, I hope I haven't scared you or anything and I am not claiming to know anything like a vet should, just sharing my experience with you.
Sending vibes also x

 

[Sky-O]

Thank you angeleyes. Please don't be sorry. I need to know, and I'm glad I do. Thing is, how on EARTH do you shift pneumonia? My regular vet (who is helpfully on holiday) said he feels its his chest and its something I have caught super early.

Should I be keeping him on Convenia? Should I be trying Zithromax? I have no idea. By the way, I'm not asking anyone specific, more thinking outloud.

Too many parallels between Lionel and Badger. Too many parallels.

Can I ask, with Lionel, did the air in the room have an impact on him and his breathing?

 

[donnamt]

I blame myself for past bunny deaths. Like serious, gut wrenching guilt everytime I think about them. I don't want to feel that guilt again. I don't ever want to feel I've let down another bunny again. I always base it on what is best for the bunny, but I don't know. I so don't want to get it wrong. He deserves more than me getting it wrong.

but thats the point hun, its not you. you are tied by the people who have trained to do the job of finding out whats wrong. ive felt intense guilt for letting pearl down but at the end of the day i didnt train as a vet they did and we have to put our faith into them.

whats the alternative dont keep bunnies no more (as ive seriously considered) and leave them to the fate of others who wouldnt try half as hard?

my vet said pearl was lucky she had found me, so deep in my guilt i hadnt accepted that before, but i have fought my hardest for this precious soul and cant give anymore than i have.

you my sweet have put these bunnies first every step of the way and what ever the ending, they have been lucky to find you. we can beat ourselves up daily and feel we have failed and miss the joy they bring.. or we can accept bunnies are so delicate that we cant save them all no matter how much we love them and worship every second we get together.

 

[angeleyes]

Thank you angeleyes. Please don't be sorry. I need to know, and I'm glad I do. Thing is, how on EARTH do you shift pneumonia? My regular vet (who is helpfully on holiday) said he feels its his chest and its something I have caught super early.

Should I be keeping him on Convenia? Should I be trying Zithromax? I have no idea. By the way, I'm not asking anyone specific, more thinking outloud.

Too many parallels between Lionel and Badger. Too many parallels.

Can I ask, with Lionel, did the air in the room have an impact on him and his breathing?

I don't think you can shift pneumonia :? In Lionels case certainly not it was too late

I have never heard of Convenia or Zithromax :? Lionel was on bisolvon daily (to break down mucus on his chest) a diuretic up to 4 times a day (to shift fluid), depocilin every other day (to ward off any other infections) and the steriod dexafort once a week (God knows what that was doing but it did something!)

The air in the room did have a very big impact on him, the day i forgot to leave the heatin on I nearly lost him, he could barely breathe also having the tumble dryer on made him worse even though its in the cupboard.

I really hope you can get to the bottom of this.

 

[abbymarysmokey]

I've used Ronaxan (doxycycline) successfully for lung congestion before. This was a number of years ago though, so there are probably more drug choices nowadays

 

[thumps_]

I would like to affirm what donnamt posted about guilt & feeling we have let down our buns.

I suggest that you imagine someone else who is as devoted to their bunnies as you are, may be someone you know. Place them in the same situation you were in with the same knowledge & state of poor health you had, with the bunnies who passed on. Look at how the situation developed, the information available at the time. Would you blame them for failing their buns?
If the answer is no, then why do you treat yourself differently from the rest of the world?

If the answer is yes. IMO At the end of the day we can only do our best, it's impossible to do more. We all have limitations/constraints too.

Fact. In bereavement, after the shock, it is usual to feel a mixture of guilt & anger although 1 usually predominates. Until these feelings are sorted out, we cannot progress to resolution/healing. Until we have reached resolution, we will react to further episodes of impending/feared bereavement with the full force of the past feelings together with the present = overwhelmingly painful.

Similarly it is common when prolonged drawn out suffering ends in death, to feel relief. The relief is 2 fold, for the patient released from suffering, & relief from ones own emotional exhaustion & pain caused by watching someone you love suffering yet being helpless to relieve it. There is nothing wrong with that - no need for guilt.

In the above, I speak as a fellow suffer. I've no psychotherapeutic training.

So to Badger.
XR of lungs sometimes doesn't show disease even when it's present.
Bunnies have small lungs in comparison to their size, so they can't cope if a relatively small part isn't working.(We hardly notice it if we lose a whole lung) Of the illnesses which can be treated, there may be more.

You are thinking of pneumonia. Zithromax is licensed for human use. The only microbiological information I have found so far, pertains to bacteria which cause disease in humans. Rabbits may get human bacteria but just as commonly get totally different bacteria.
There is congestive cardiac failure.
I do not know whether rabbits can get a disease called fibrosing alveolitis or something similar. This may account for why Lionel was prescribed steroids.
True allergy - bronchospasm is rare in rabbits, but can happen.

 

[Jack's-Jane]

I would like to affirm what donnamt posted about guilt & feeling we have let down our buns.

I suggest that you imagine someone else who is as devoted to their bunnies as you are, may be someone you know. Place them in the same situation you were in with the same knowledge & state of poor health you had, with the bunnies who passed on. Look at how the situation developed, the information available at the time. Would you blame them for failing their buns?
If the answer is no, then why do you treat yourself differently from the rest of the world?

If the answer is yes. IMO At the end of the day we can only do our best, it's impossible to do more. We all have limitations/constraints too.

Fact. In bereavement, after the shock, it is usual to feel a mixture of guilt & anger although 1 usually predominates. Until these feelings are sorted out, we cannot progress to resolution/healing. Until we have reached resolution, we will react to further episodes of impending/feared bereavement with the full force of the past feelings together with the present = overwhelmingly painful.

Similarly it is common when prolonged drawn out suffering ends in death, to feel relief. The relief is 2 fold, for the patient released from suffering, & relief from ones own emotional exhaustion & pain caused by watching someone you love suffering yet being helpless to relieve it. There is nothing wrong with that - no need for guilt.

In the above, I speak as a fellow suffer. I've no psychotherapeutic training.

So to Badger.
XR of lungs sometimes doesn't show disease even when it's present.
Bunnies have small lungs in comparison to their size, so they can't cope if a relatively small part isn't working.(We hardly notice it if we lose a whole lung) Of the illnesses which can be treated, there may be more.

You are thinking of pneumonia. Zithromax is licensed for human use. The only microbiological information I have found so far, pertains to bacteria which cause disease in humans. Rabbits may get human bacteria but just as commonly get totally different bacteria.
There is congestive cardiac failure.
I do not know whether rabbits can get a disease called fibrosing alveolitis or something similar. This may account for why Lionel was prescribed steroids.
True allergy - bronchospasm is rare in rabbits, but can happen.

Good advice from thumps

AFAIK Rabbits CAN get fibrosing alveolitis

Here are a few links which may be of interest:

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00294.htm

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/637.pdf?LA=1

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2008_V471.pdf

 

[Sky-O]

Thank you guys. Sorry I haven't managed to properly reply to this today. I have read.

I took Badger to what my vet said was a specialist. She was excellent. She gave Badger a REALLY good going over and thiks he has a laryngeal (spelling?) issue, so I need to look into that. I feel like this could be the change for him. She offered me some more invasive options but I said no, medication is enough, I'm not going down the exploratory surgery route because whilst very interesting for us, not the best thing for him.

 

[donnamt]

does the vet think its treatable then? so glad you are close to a diagnosis. fingers crossed for a very quick recovery

 

[Sky-O]

She said that one of the issues could be sortable, but the risks after surgery could outweigh the success rate. She said the issue was not lifethreatening, but because infection (especially in the lungs) are a secondary complication, those COULD be life threatening and so we need to try our best to support his lungs and keep on top of any infection.

He's going to go on Zithromax, his Metacam has been upped greatly and he is on a bronchiodilator (but I have no idea of the name off the top of my head). He will be nebulised one day a week for three times that day, and we shall see how he goes on that regime.