Is my vet correct?

So my bunnies have had slightly sludgy wee for the past week or so. They're still active, friendly, eating etc. I don't really have any other bunnies wee or experience to go off, so not sure if it's normal/not normal/how serious, but it looked a bit like pictures of calcium sludge I'd seen.

I took them to the vets tonight for a Rabbit Awareness Week health check, and to see the vet about this

Their wee looks like this:



The vet said it was more likely to be protein sludge than calcium sludge as excess calcium forms crystals whereas this is just general sludge.

He said it was how bunnies and other animals eh horses dealt with excess protein, that it was very common, not a problem and nothing to worry about.

thanks

(the vet nurse also told me how happy and healthy and adorable the bunnies looked. DP has grown to a whopping 1.4kg! (3lbs) and Waffles to 1.8kg (4lbs). She was also telling me about her RSPCA rabbits and other clients with lots of bunnies which made me feel more confident about them)

Have slowly halved their ration to 25g of pellets between them per day.

They would like to report me for animal cruelty

? What do you mean?

Excess protein does not cause 'sludgy urine', it causes an increase of ammonia production and excretion. So it may be possible to smell it in Rabbit urine, but not to see it with the naked eye.

To me your photo looks to show excess calcium excretion.

Hi Jane

thanks for the replies to both posts
I've had a look at the two links you posted on the other thread (http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen...ies/Sludge.htm & http://www.greendale.co.uk/rabbit_urinalysis.html), and some other sites

Am still confused (sorry).

Part of me thinks excess calcium must be bad, so i need to fix it. And also this has me really worried
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=703491239694606&set=pb.224203434290058.-2207520000.1400274288.&type=3&theater

Another part of me is reading stuff like this:
http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/rabbit%20behavior.htm "Rabbit urine is very cloudy and contains calcium, as well as proteins. It is not abnormal for the urine of a healthy rabbit to appear brilliant red, similar to blood. This is due to an incomplete metabolism of vitamins and is totally normal in some rabbits, rather than an indication of illness."

http://www.greendale.co.uk/rabbit_urinalysis.htmlJuvenile, pregnant or lactating animals often produce clear urine.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_diseases/generalities/Sludge.htmRabbit urine always contains a certain amount of sediments. This is absolutely normal, the system of rabbits works this way to excrete the too much of calcium in their body.

So my other theory is that excess calcium is not the same as calcium sludge?
And that my baby bunnies are growing up (9mths), and they're no longer classed as juvenile and so no longer have clear urine. Maybe they no longer need as much calcium for growing and this is why they've started excreting the excess on the same diet
And even though i've halved their pellets to 25g per day between the two of them, it's still calciummy urine so maybe their diet was fine and it's just a growing up issue?

Or should i be super worried and keep trying to improve their diet?
(they're on 25g science selective junior, lots of hay and grass, lots of water and a couple of spring green leaves or small handful of herbs between them. They spend a lot of time in the litter tray when they come indoors but mainly nyomming hay so it doesn't look like they're straining to wee)

They're super special furrballs so I want to get things right for them and not have them die of something preventable

dumblepaws said:

Have slowly halved their ration to 25g of pellets between them per day.

They would like to report me for animal cruelty

Click to expand...

Why would you be reported? :?

jackaroonie1997 said:

Why would you be reported? :?

Click to expand...

I read it as the rabbits wanting to report her, because she's halved their pellet rations!

Santa said:

I read it as the rabbits wanting to report her, because she's halved their pellet rations!

Click to expand...

Oh yes! I knew that oops

Santa said:

I read it as the rabbits wanting to report her, because she's halved their pellet rations!

Click to expand...

yep, that! Am getting so much begging and hungry eyes - it's adorable

And still so confused about whether excess calcium is normal or superbad!

I hate being an inexperience and hypochondriac bunnyslave!

Now also concerned about Waffles' nose



Not sure if she's moulting (although she doesn't seem to be anywhere else), or rubbing her nose against something (platform when chewing it), or it's some kind of disease (obviously I'm thinking mites or flystrike or cancer 'cos I generally go for the worst option) - there's still fur, there's just a little line where it changes from lighter fur to darker fur and it seems slightly recessed. Or what i should do.

And still super confused about this:

dumblepaws said:

Hi Jane

thanks for the replies to both posts
I've had a look at the two links you posted on the other thread (http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen...ies/Sludge.htm & http://www.greendale.co.uk/rabbit_urinalysis.html), and some other sites

Am still confused (sorry).

Part of me thinks excess calcium must be bad, so i need to fix it. And also this has me really worried
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=703491239694606&set=pb.224203434290058.-2207520000.1400274288.&type=3&theater

Another part of me is reading stuff like this:
http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/rabbit%20behavior.htm "Rabbit urine is very cloudy and contains calcium, as well as proteins. It is not abnormal for the urine of a healthy rabbit to appear brilliant red, similar to blood. This is due to an incomplete metabolism of vitamins and is totally normal in some rabbits, rather than an indication of illness."

http://www.greendale.co.uk/rabbit_urinalysis.htmlJuvenile, pregnant or lactating animals often produce clear urine.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_diseases/generalities/Sludge.htmRabbit urine always contains a certain amount of sediments. This is absolutely normal, the system of rabbits works this way to excrete the too much of calcium in their body.

So my other theory is that excess calcium is not the same as calcium sludge?
And that my baby bunnies are growing up (9mths), and they're no longer classed as juvenile and so no longer have clear urine. Maybe they no longer need as much calcium for growing and this is why they've started excreting the excess on the same diet
And even though i've halved their pellets to 25g per day between the two of them, it's still calciummy urine so maybe their diet was fine and it's just a growing up issue?

Or should i be super worried and keep trying to improve their diet?
(they're on 25g science selective junior, lots of hay and grass, lots of water and a couple of spring green leaves or small handful of herbs between them. They spend a lot of time in the litter tray when they come indoors but mainly nyomming hay so it doesn't look like they're straining to wee)

They're super special furrballs so I want to get things right for them and not have them die of something preventable

Click to expand...

If anyone has bunnies who wee - please help!

Have ordered a molly varga vet book to read so hopefully will be a bit less rubbish after that.

thanks

Do they have a lot of calcium rich veggies, generally dark green stuff like spinach, herbs, carrot tops?

I wouldn't worry about her nose, it looks to me how Charlottes nose looks when she starts moulting. She always does it nose first :lol:

Gemmapookie said:

Do they have a lot of calcium rich veggies, generally dark green stuff like spinach, herbs, carrot tops?

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No they get unlimited grass/hay/water, small amount of pellets
And then a couple of spring green leaves or some coriander or parsley
I've temporarily stopped things like banana or broccoli which they only got a tiny bit of less than once a week.
Is really confusing! They're on such a boring diet now

Gemmapookie said:

I wouldn't worry about her nose, it looks to me how Charlottes nose looks when she starts moulting. She always does it nose first :lol:

Click to expand...

Phew! Will watch out for more moulting. Was hoping it would be that

Thanks for your help x

Spring greens are high calcium, like anything from the cabbage family.

If they have water bottles you may try putting bowls in to encourage more drinking. Also, some people believe putting Apple Cider Vinegar into the water prevents sludge. Apple Cider Vinegar is something a lot of old timers use, saying it prevents everything from protozoal infections to kidney stones. I'm not sure there is any proof Apple Cider Vinegar works but there are so many people who swear by it that I believe maybe it has a positive effect, even if its just because it flavors the water and encourages rabbits to drink more.

There are some pellets that are lower in calcium than others e.g. Oxbow Bunny Basics T which is the adult one and timothy hay based, the other one is for young rabbits and is based on alfalfa hay. If their hay is alfalfa, this also has more calcium in than the likes of timothy/meadow hay.

As suggested by someone else, a bowl of water for them to drink out will also help to flush out any excess calcium and cut back on any high calcium veg e.g. carrot tops, spinach, kale.

There are also other things on the market now e.g. fibafirst (PAH have them on offer at the moment).

Thanks for the replies and sorry I've not responded for ages .

Dustyrabbit said:

Spring greens are high calcium, like anything from the cabbage family.

Click to expand...

bunny babe said:

There are some pellets that are lower in calcium than others e.g. Oxbow Bunny Basics T which is the adult one and timothy hay based, the other one is for young rabbits and is based on alfalfa hay. If their hay is alfalfa, this also has more calcium in than the likes of timothy/meadow hay.
As suggested by someone else, a bowl of water for them to drink out will also help to flush out any excess calcium and cut back on any high calcium veg e.g. carrot tops, spinach, kale.
There are also other things on the market now e.g. fibafirst (PAH have them on offer at the moment).

Click to expand...

AMMax1 said:

If they have water bottles you may try putting bowls in to encourage more drinking. Also, some people believe putting Apple Cider Vinegar into the water prevents sludge. Apple Cider Vinegar is something a lot of old timers use, saying it prevents everything from protozoal infections to kidney stones. I'm not sure there is any proof Apple Cider Vinegar works but there are so many people who swear by it that I believe maybe it has a positive effect, even if its just because it flavors the water and encourages rabbits to drink more.

Click to expand...

So I tried eliminating all veg and halved their pellets, and they still had some sediment.
I've done lots of reading on the internet and ihad some good feedback on Facebook and another forum from some experienced bunny slaves and it sounds like sludge is bad, but rabbits excrete calcium on a proportional basis, and some sediment is ok. It was just weird to me as junior bunnies have clear urine so it is just that my babies are growing up!

Also http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/calcium.htm says

"However, before you start keeping a calculator by the fridge to try and keep tabs of the exact composition of your rabbits diet, there are a few other factors to consider. All green leafy vegetables contain about 95% water, helping to provide the high fluid intake which is essential for rabbits suffering from urolithiasis. Plus, even those vegetables which provide the most calcium, are not really all that rich in calcium. For example, spring greens top the list, with 210mg calcium per 100g. This is still lower in calcium than a typical batch of timothy (grass) hay. Finally, it is important to make sure that phosphorus intake doesn't exceed that of calcium. Do discuss your rabbit's diet with your rabbit-experienced vet, and don't forget that expertise is also available from nutritionists employed by feed companies both in the UK and US, who are usually happy to help individual rabbit owners."

So I'm less worried about it now.
I have halved their morning pellets though, and introduced a fibafirst stick along with their evening veggies. And I've moved them from a staple diet of spring greens and parsley to cauliflower and coriander, which they seem very happy with and there's still some sediment, but less

So i think when they finally run out of science selective junior, i'll put them on to science selective adult or excel, but keep giving them a little bit of fibafirst too