Trying to keep Poppy out of ileus/stasis

:roll:

She just won't eat much hay no matter which one she is offered.

Complicated really as last week or two she's showing signs of classic ileus and back on Wed she didn't pass any droppings all afternoon until early eve and was only nibbling at stuff. She's producing a good no. of droppings and although dark (due to diet) they are smaller than I would like and classically 'ileus' and it's very frustrating.

Heavy moult, behaviourally struggling with seasonal change and loss of garden vegetation and switching over to dry food (rather like Thumps was), no caecal dysbiosis which is wierd as Poppy normally presents with this first :? She is eating but not enough, just picking really. Wolfs down profibre pellets, carrot tops and coriander (just to make sure she IS eating) but not her hay. If let out she will graze on the lawn but it's not enough. This all began when we got our new WWW hay delivery - bad season and she just doesn't like the new hay. Yet, would normally wolf down her Oat and Timothy bagged hay and again.... no joy. What do you do when she doesn't like any of them? :?
I've had her on gut motility drugs for the last 2-3 days and they are clearly having an impact but not fully resolving the situation. She has a vet appointment for Monday morning with our savy vet unless she needs one sooner, but as eating, pooping and ticking over with nothing 'visibly' wrong I feel she will be ok monitored until then. Very confused.... suspect combination of all the above but need to resolve this as something's not right :?

Please could Poppy have some vibes :wave:

Hope she's better soon - and as a person who currently has 8 varieties of hay in, I know how frustrating it can be.

Have you tried dried grass? that can sometimes be good to tempt them with?

Apache said:

Hope she's better soon - and as a person who currently has 8 varieties of hay in, I know how frustrating it can be.

Have you tried dried grass? that can sometimes be good to tempt them with?

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Yes absolutely, in the past we've had the pure dried (freeze dried grass) and she does love it. Currently have none here plus she's not drinking really either so i'm reluctant to dehydrate her as that stuff although great is very anhydrous :? But it's a flippin' good suggestion and I think i'll order some more along with some more expensive bagged Oxbow/Burns stuff as have a feeling this will become the staple diet. Thank you for the reminder about that dried grass :wave:

It's very annoying as Poppy is not what I would have described as a fussy hay eater - she never has been. But has been spoilt these last few months with an awful lot of free range and free eating in the garden.

What a worry, sending lots of vibes for Poppy. xx

prettylupin said:

Yes absolutely, in the past we've had the pure dried (freeze dried grass) and she does love it. Currently have none here plus she's not drinking really either so i'm reluctant to dehydrate her as that stuff although great is very anhydrous :? But it's a flippin' good suggestion and I think i'll order some more along with some more expensive bagged Oxbow/Burns stuff as have a feeling this will become the staple diet. Thank you for the reminder about that dried grass :wave:

It's very annoying as Poppy is not what I would have described as a fussy hay eater - she never has been. But has been spoilt these last few months with an awful lot of free range and free eating in the garden.

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Thanks - just a thought of you have any horse food places, you can get readigrass by the sack, if that's any help :wave:

As an aside, Alfred didn't drink for 4 days after his op, but he was eating loads of veg and soaked pellets, the vet said he was getting all the water he needed from his food.

Teeth ?

Jack's-Jane said:

Teeth ?

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I knew you'd say that

I don't think so because she's never had dental problems before, her teeth are usually perfect BUT this is my suspicion too hence the vet app amonst a check up for other possible causes.

She also has no problem eating tough stalky dried apple leaves, and other stalky forage or grinding her way through apple twigs etc. She has no drooling and isn't dropping her food, but I know it sounds like teeth from my description so will get her checked out thoroughly. Savy vet not in until Mon otherwise i'd take her sooner but it would be a wasted trip unless it was an emergency.

What does she eat? If she's not eating hay does she get unlimited pellets? Because if she's still getting just one portion of pellets a day this could cause her to go into stasis. This happened to Smoo when she couldn't eat hay due to her teeth.

I agree with Jack's Jane too about checking teeth. Spurrs or elongated roots cause a lot of pain. Smoo was on unlimited soggy pellets for a couple of months, had a dental and painkillers. Once the pain had subsided she was able to eat hay again.

Im so sorry to hear that Poppy's tummy is playing up again.
Everything possible crossed for her up here.

I know you have an excellent vet. As Jack's Jane says teeth is worth considering, & that nasty situation we had 3 times, when all the teeth looked fine on auroscopic exam, but there were sharp spurs which could only be seen under GA on the very back molars.

It's always possible to plan an investigation which will help to elucidate the problem eg. XR or ultrasound should the teeth prove to be normal. That way Poppy wouldn't have an unnecessary sedation/GA.

Is she still drinking normally, or has that tailed off too?
I know you'll try to get fiber in in other ways eg tree leaves -apple, hawthorn. Is she refusing anything dry?

Please keep us updated PL

what a worry. sending lots of vibes xxx

Sending lots of vibes for Poppy xx

Jenova said:

What does she eat? If she's not eating hay does she get unlimited pellets? Because if she's still getting just one portion of pellets a day this could cause her to go into stasis. This happened to Smoo when she couldn't eat hay due to her teeth.

I agree with Jack's Jane too about checking teeth. Spurrs or elongated roots cause a lot of pain. Smoo was on unlimited soggy pellets for a couple of months, had a dental and painkillers. Once the pain had subsided she was able to eat hay again.

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Thanks yes I realise teeth seems to be most likely at this stage. Poppy doesn't have pellets she cannot tolerate them and hasn't had them since we adopted her three years ago.

She is eating other tough fibrous foods with no difficulty. Thumps yes her drinking has tailed off too which is why we're giving her wet greens that we would not normally.

more vibes :wave: xxx

prettylupin said:

Thanks yes I realise teeth seems to be most likely at this stage. Poppy doesn't have pellets she cannot tolerate them and hasn't had them since we adopted her three years ago.

She is eating other tough fibrous foods with no difficulty. Thumps yes her drinking has tailed off too which is why we're giving her wet greens that we would not normally.

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Yes, wet food is excellent. It'll help to keep the ingesta well hydrated & moving.
It's very much on my mind that this isn't Poppy's usual type of gut problem, which is another reason I wonder about teeth.
She's doing what Thumper did. With reduced throughput, she's being as efficient as possible at getting her needs in the smallest volume. Bless her
Please keep us updated.

thumps_ said:

Yes, wet food is excellent. It'll help to keep the ingesta well hydrated & moving.
It's very much on my mind that this isn't Poppy's usual type of gut problem, which is another reason I wonder about teeth.
She's doing what Thumper did. With reduced throughput, she's being as efficient as possible at getting her needs in the smallest volume. Bless her
Please keep us updated.

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Thanks

Well, after a good run in the garden, some fresh apple leaves and a twig and putting our foot down a bit and getting tough with JUST hay tonight she is eating hay :shock: with no problem whatsoever. Her moult is heavy and after a couple of portions of wet fresh coriander sprigs followed by a big graze on the lawn (and more gut drugs) she has made more improvement culminating in the hay eating! :thumb: We are now suspicious that she just got a bit lazy re. hay as had survived much longer than usual with such a ridiculously warm Autumn on grazing and dried herbs, and then when the grazing tailed off/ran out/weather changed/less time outside... the herbs alone were not enough to sustain the throughput and went into a slow decline and gradual ileus over several weeks. Getting tough appears to have got her to eat hay again. I know she was waiting for the dried herbs to materialise this evening.... they did not.....I think she gave up, jumped in her tray and tucked into a little hay. She has been upstairs eating out of her hay basket too We're not out of the woods yet by any means but this is starting to look more behavioural than dental atm. Droppings already starting to increase in size and quantity.

Will see how she is tomorrow but will probably see vet anyway to double check all is ok elsewhere.

That's fantastic news. I really hope that's problem solved & all is fine.

I know you'll keep a careful eye on her over the next few days. I think you know about Thumper's earlier pattern re. dentals. I'm keeping everything crossed that all is plain sailing for Poppy from now.

Please continue to keep us updated.

We've just had our first full on pelt around the lawn and a couple of binkies! :shock: Being a North facing garden this is the first time the lawn has been dry in weeks.

She's eating hay definitely - hay rack disturbed for first time in days upstairs in the hutch and she had eaten most of the oat hay out of her tray overnight so things are definitely improving. Definitely going to see our vet tomorrow and get those teeth checked amongst other things.... want to be certain all is ok/improving.

That's excellent news

Glad Poppy is starting to feel better x

I'm so relieved that Poppy continues to do well.

I think we do the same thing with gut slow down. ie Look at all the factors which could contribute to it, & reduce the ones we can.
Heavy moult is a big factor in stasis prone buns cos they need to increase their energy intake by 40%.
We both know the great importance of excercise.
Also the sudden fall in night time temp is a factor in Winter & Autumn for house buns.

Psychological stress eg. disrupted routine can be a big factor for some buns, as is Pain. There is a common mechanism as both increase the endogenous production of cortisol which markedly slows down the gut & also suppresses the immune system.

There is a potential way to reduce the effects of abnormally high cortisol production when diet fails, with Echinacea tincture. Although marketed as boosting the immune system it works by reducing abnormally high endogenous cortisol levels.

While we were tackling the role of dysbiosis in stasis, another member (now left) concluded that dehydration was a major factor, by making the ingesta "stiff" & difficult to push through. She is soooo right.

My theory of what happened to Poppy is that all the factors became operative at once, causing gut slow down, & reduced throughput at a time when she needed to increase throughput. I suspect her refusal to eat dry food was simply her effort to keep the ingesta as fluid as poss, at a time when she didn't have enough "room" to drink, & her effort to increase lower nutrient food intake to moult. I think that your timely use of gut prokinetics got her out of a vicious circle with a downward spiral.

I never dared to use Echinacea for Thumper, because there was a strong possibility - unprovable in life, that his own immune system was continually destroying the nerve ganglia to his gut. Therefore for the buns with "aquired" dysautonomia only a degree of natural immune suppression is advantageous & IMO for the present, until more is known, Echinacea is imprudent in this situation only.
I think it may be worth considering for Poppy because of her severe fear-aggression issues.

I'm so sorry it takes me so long to work out a hypothesis of what may be going on in a bun & a possible way to control it. As you know part of my brain has packed up.
I suppose another way foreward is to see whether she does indeed produce abnormally high cortisol levels naturally. I assume that the stress all buns have at the vets is accounted for in the "normal range".

When Thumper needed a dental gut motility agents never corrected his eating but would prevent ileus. His pattern was to eat one day & not the next, for a few days, then stop completely. I assumed his mouth was painful & he'd try to rest it.

The old fashioned medical concept of, "Why does this particular patient get this particular illness, at this point of time", can be really helpful for rabbits. Yes, she needs a thorough check up.
You are both much in my thoughts - hence a mammoth post!