Just added a 3rd rabbit to a pair - help

Hi Everyone,

I just posted in another thread but don’t want to hijack it (Bonding a third bun to a pair? - Kate123 ).

Anyway we have 2 bonded rabbits who live free range with us in our flat. Jasper the first rabbit is dominant and very friendly and laid back. Then we introduced Jessica to him. She was very nervous and timid but has come out of her shell more lately. They bonded so easily and spend lots of time together and apart. We talked about getting a 3rd rabbit as we thought our rabbits would like a new friend. Jasper is very laid back and is definitely the boss (he's quite a dwarf lop but quite big) and probably could take it or leave it. Jessica on the other hand is always grooming him and is much more confident when he is around Jasper, she follows him about and is more relaxed with us if he is there, often she buries her head under him. We expected her to be quite welcoming too, couldn’t imagine either of them being aggressive! They are both spayed/neutered!

Anyway we saw a 10 week old male bun in a pet shop and couldn’t resist. Not very sensible i know but we had such good results with our last bond we thought it would be ok.

We introduced them in the kitchen (Jasper and Jessica rarely go in there) but perhaps it wasn’t neutral enough. It went ok at first just some sniffing and a bit of chasing. The new bun was happy to be dominated but i startled him as i stroked him and he ran off but towards Jessica who i think misinterpreted this and attacked. We stopped it and he is physically fine but was a bit shaken up.

What shall we do now? I don’t believe in buying pets and not giving them the best possible life but at the same time need to be fair with him and my other 2. We want to try and get them bonded but obviously a bit setback after the first meet.

What tactics shall we try now? The new bun has a cage which is big enough for now but our flat isnt big enough to keep them separated. In the short term however we will do whatever is best.

Our plan is to put his cage in the living room with Jasper and Jessica (they spend 99% of their time in there). Then after a few days try and introduce somewhere neutral such as the bathtub.

Any recommendations or advice? Should all meets be done with all 3 of them?

P.S the new bun isn't neutered (obviously) but we will do so when he is old enough. Also we know that when he does get hormonal we may need to separate till after his neuter but we don’t want to keep them separated until then

Thanks

Dan

I know you don't want the new bunny to be alone, but it is best to keep him apart from the other bunnies until he is old enough to be neutered as bonding afterwards will stand a much better chance of success.

He can be done as soon as his plums drop, which can be from around 14 weeks onwards, so it's not too long to wait. If you bond now, there is a very high risk of fighting once the little ones hormones start raging and you also run the risk of upsetting the bond when he goes to be neutered.

In the meantime, you can read up on the forum and find out more about bonding so that, when the time comes, you are ready. I think it failed because the area wasn't neutral.

In a nutshell, bonding should be done in a small area that none of the bunnies have been in before (if you have trouble doing this then I've read that laying cardboard over the floor of the area you're using is enough to mask smells from the carpet etc) ensuring the pen etc has been sprayed with white vinegar to remove any scent.

This area should be somewhere they can be kept for a few days and you should choose a time when you can supervise them for the first 48 to 72 hours at least (posssibly more with a trio). And, yes, all bunnies should be introduced at the same time.

Thanks for your reply. I do understand what you are saying about waiting till after he is neutered however Jessica is the only one who seemed bothered by his presence and she has been spayed a little while now!

When Jessica started to get hormonal she did try and pester jasper but this never resulted in a fight and this settled down once we got her spayed. I was hoping to repeat this process but hopefully get him neutered before any trouble starts.

If there is a gap between him being ready to be neutered and any pestering leading to aggression I could always separate them and rebond afterwards? This just seems the lesser of 2 evils to me but I’ll have a think about your advice.

I've been reading and some posts suggest the slow bonding over the 48hour supervision thing. As our new bun has had a traumatic experience wouldn’t the approach to let them slowly get used to each other be better. i.e. his cage near them but closed and gradually increase time together in a neutral area (dating).

We could at least try this and if it looks destined to fail then we could wait till after his neuter and try again?

Thanks again

You could bond now and split them if necessary but, for the sake of a few weeks wait I would still advise to wait, although of course the choice is yours. I'm just giving you some things to think about I guess to help you with weighing up the decision in your mind.

Even if all 3 managed to get along peacefully until the little one can be neutered, you would still have to take a fairly newly bonded trio to the vet together for the neuter (either that or split them while he has the op and risking the bond breaking anyway).

Some people prefer the slow method but it can make bonding harder as bunnies need time together to form a hierarchy - if you keep splitting them, it becomes harder for them to do this. Many on here prefer to use the bonding method I described in my earlier post for that reason.

Sky-O (another member) has a lot of info about both bonding methods and hopefully she won't mind me posting the link so you can have a read and decide for yourself. http://flashsplace.webs.com/rabbitinfoarticles.htm

I too would wait before bonding particularly with a male bun. He could safely be neutered in a couple of weeks anyway so there seems little point in bonding, seperating then rebonding and I can assure you as soon as he is ready the dynamics of the bond will change drastically and if their is a major fight they may never bond.

I have on occassion bonded young unneutered females who aren't old enough to be spayed with done males but there is a very fine line around the time they get hormonal and it needs a lot of careful monitoring and quick intervention for it to work.

Thanks Karen, Amy

I'll read the arcticle and discuss with my girlfirend tonight.

I agree with the 48hr thing in theory but what if there is a fight? I was opting for the gradual approach as putting them together the first time didn't work (although i accept we need somewhere 100% neutral. I thought the kitchen wouldn't be thought of as their territory as they hardly go in but perhaps i was wrong). So if i take your advice and there is a fight what should i do? I say fight but its more of a one sided attack. Poor baby bun is half the size!

Amy thats a good point about it not being too long to wait. If he is 10 weeks now i may only be looking at 6 weeks.

Could we not have a compromise? Keep them in the same room but seperated. I'll find a way of giving him some run space until we are ready to bond after his neuter? Or better still let him have the kitchen/hallway. The other 2 stay in the front room 99% of the time anyway. I could put some kind of baby gate so they can investigate each other if they want?

I've had males done from about 12 weeks so it may not even be that long.

The same room is fine but make sure they can't bite each other through the bars.

Yeah he will need his jabs so ill take him soon and let them decide how close he is to be able to be neutered! I was told he was 10 weeks but he looks really small to me. See what the vet says though.

Cool ill do that then. To be fair when Jessica attacked before it was because he ran at her (running away from me). I dont think she would just randomly go for him but better to be safe than sorry

Thanks again!

I too would wait, they might be ok now but what about in a few weeks when his hormones increase

dbowes said:

I agree with the 48hr thing in theory but what if there is a fight? I was opting for the gradual approach as putting them together the first time didn't work (although i accept we need somewhere 100% neutral. I thought the kitchen wouldn't be thought of as their territory as they hardly go in but perhaps i was wrong). So if i take your advice and there is a fight what should i do? I say fight but its more of a one sided attack. Poor baby bun is half the size!

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Chasing, nipping, fur pulling and humping are all normal during bonding and bunnies should be left to it; if there is real fighting (locked on, rolling about) then you should hold them apart to a count of ten (use a broom or similar, not your hands or you may well get bitten) and then release.

Thanks!

We have decided to listen to advice and wait till new baby boy rabbit is neutered (still dont have a name - arrghh). We have put him in the front room in his own cage which has a play pen round it. The thinking was they can get used to each others smells why we wait till he is old enough.

This seems to be ok other than Jessica is pooping everywhere to mark her territory. We have let him out of his cage twice now, to play in the run outside (nearer to them) and both times it has sent Jessica (who is normally timid) in a frenzy. Jasper the dominant bun isn't particularly interested.

Each time she tried to attack baby bun but obviously cant get to him through the bars then turned to Jasper aggressively, and it seemed a fight would break out but she then turned and ran. The first time Jasper ignored her and the 2nd time just now he retaliated and has been chasing her around the room. Normally they just cuddle up and since they met have always been very loving with each other.

So 2 questions:

1. Could baby buns presence getting her riled up have an affect on Jessica and Jaspers relationship? I dont want their bond to break!!!

2. If Jessica is this crazy now, is this a sign that she just wont ever accept baby bun?

dbowes said:

1. Could baby buns presence getting her riled up have an affect on Jessica and Jaspers relationship? I dont want their bond to break!!!

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Yes, this is known as referred agrression. Jessica sees the new bunny as in inturder in her space; since she can't get to him to 'chase him off' she is taking her frustration out on her partner instead.

The best thing to do would be to keep the other bunny in a different part of the house until you are ready to bond - or if it's just when he's free-ranging that the problems start, then let him exercise somewhere away from the other two.

Getting them used to each other's scents can be a good thing and some bunnies will happily live alongside others with no referred agresssion, but in this case you do risk affecting the existing bond between Jessica and Jasper.

dbowes said:

2. If Jessica is this crazy now, is this a sign that she just wont ever accept baby bun?

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No, Jessica is behaving normally towards a new bunny on her patch - it doesn't give any indication of how the rabbits will react when they are bonded properly on neutral territory.

ETA: If you start a new thread in Rabbit Chat, people could help you with name suggestions too.

I see thanks a lot!

Ok we will probably move him then as his presense is causing Jessica to mark her territory. It's been so difficult to litter train Jessica, don't want to go backwards! I'll move him and do the white vinegar thing!

Our biggest concern is that when we do come to bond it doesn't work. We live in a flat so there isn't enough room to keep them seperate long term.

If we were to introduce them now on neutral territory it might give us the confidence that Jessica will be accepting of him as she clearly is a highly strung rabbit!! I don't mean to bond properly, just a trial run to see how she reacts. Finding a new home for baby bun now would be difficult but in a few months time heart-breaking as like I said our flat is too small to keep seperate. We have been naive about this I know

dbowes said:

If we were to introduce them now on neutral territory it might give us the confidence that Jessica will be accepting of him as she clearly is a highly strung rabbit!! I don't mean to bond properly, just a trial run to see how she reacts. Finding a new home for baby bun now would be difficult but in a few months time heart-breaking as like I said our flat is too small to keep seperate. We have been naive about this I know

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I would leave any attempt until you are ready to bond properly, random introductions can be stressful for buns and it wont change the eventual outcome.

If you are not confident about bonding you could always contact a rescue to help you. Some will for a donation start the bonding process off.

janice said:

I would leave any attempt until you are ready to bond properly, random introductions can be stressful for buns and it wont change the eventual outcome.

If you are not confident about bonding you could always contact a rescue to help you. Some will for a donation start the bonding process off.

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We should be ok thanks, I've done a lot of reading and will do more by the time we come to bond. How confident if done properly can we be of a successful trio! Is it a case that sometimes it's not meant to be? If so I'd want to find him a new home now! I'd make sure it wad with someone who would look after him properly. Jasper is so laid back but Jessica makes me nervous!

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=291744 have a read of this post.

Trios can be reasonably successful in getting them together, success rate is lower than with a pair. I have bonded quite a number, however they usually go home within the first week of being started off, some of them stay together others do not, however for those who end up splitting them for what ever reason it is difficult to know how many of these fail because they do not follow the rules of very slowly expanding their territory into totally neutral space.

However it is important when having put them together to assess them accurately to see if they have bonded in a positive way or are just 'ok' together, if they are just 'ok' it is better to rebond them with someone else for all of their sakes.

It is impossible to say what the chance of success will be for your buns.

Thanks again, when you say slowly increase their space to a total neutral territory does that mean they can never be a trio in my living room, where jasper and Jessica live now? Or have I misunderstood?

dbowes said:

Thanks again, when you say slowly increase their space to a total neutral territory does that mean they can never be a trio in my living room, where jasper and Jessica live now? Or have I misunderstood?

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When I say slowly increase the space I am meaning about 2 or 3 square feet every 72 hours and then to only increase their space if there have been no untoward events.

They can go back into your living room only if you have desmelled the whole room, flooring, skirting and legs of furniture, if your rabbits normally jump on furniture then that must be neutralised as well. If this is not done it is highly likely that the bond will break down