Rabbit LOTS protein in urine. U/D. He has a home here till...U/D pics

I have a foster bun, Oliver, who I have noticed drinks more than twice the aount of any other rabbit I have. I empty litter trays every day and his is sloshing with urine in the bottom.

I had mentioned my concerns to the vet a few weeks ago and we have been monitoring his weight. It is staying fairly stable around the 2.8kg mark. Today the vet gave me some urine test strips to use at home - the kind designed for humans. I emptied all litter out of his base and litter tray so that any sample would not be contaminated by litter. I did not wash anything though in case vinegar or disinfectant trace would affect the result.

He obliged with a sample in his litter tray and I was able to cover the stick in urine. All the results were normal other then protein which was showing as being ++++, the highest measure on the stick.

I phoned and spoke to the vet I saw this morning and she suspects he is in renal failure. She feels that we could go on and do a blood test but even with the results to confirm there is relatively little that could be done anyway.

Otherwise he is not too bad. A bit quieter than the other buns and I have concerns that his vision is impaired to some degree. He is currently on Baytril for a reaction in his scrotum following his neuter. I am hoping someone out there has experience of this and can tell me;

1. Is it normal for rabbits to have elevated levels of protein?
2. If he is in renal failure, what can we do for him?

Thats not true, thats theres nothing that can be done. I'm really upset by that. Thats not fair on the bun

I have a bun with Chronic Renal Failure. She's having fluids every week, a diet without ANY diuretics (parsley, dandelions).

She is to be kept comfy and all the time she's feeling well, we'll keep fighting with her. She just has particularly bad days, as the kidney failure is causing anaemia, whicih makes her run out of energy very quickly, as the low red blood count means oxygen isnt getting round her system - so we have to help.

SO, she's having fluids and being tested again at the end of a 4 week period.

She has a diet of SS Pellets, unlimited GOOD QUALITY hay, Dill, Basil and Coriander and Thyme each day.

She's drinking ~800ml per 24hrs from what we can work out right now.

We are currently investigating the use of Fortekor (Cat/Dog) for use in Ginger, to try and help her stay with us for longer.

(NB: i must add, this is something she may have had from birth, as she has other issues, from bad breeding with genetic issues)

Thanks. I guess I should have said that it was her first reaction that treatment would be limited and was off to research options.

I have been following Ginger's story with interest given my worries about Oliver. Is it sub cut fluids she has every week? That's good to know not to give him parsley or dandelions. I just got a lovely bag of Galens gardens blackberry leaves and burdock from prettylupin - her buns wouldn't eat the blackberry ones and thought mine would like to try the burdock as well. What a lovely person! Anyway, would they both be ok for him?

I am waiting for the hay for pets samples to arrive and I will buy him the one he likes best. He currently has the SS people's meadow hay and loves it. Nice and green and smells lovely. He is currently on Excel pellets and a wee sprinkle of Chudleys. I also give them pro fibre. Because I either know the foster buns have not been on a correct diet or have no idea what their diet has been - Oliver was abandoned on a doorstep - I thought it would be a good idea to give them extra fibre to help get them on track.

Sorry for the ramble, trying to give as much info as I can so folks can help!

GrahamL said:

Thats not true, thats theres nothing that can be done. I'm really upset by that. Thats not fair on the bun

I have a bun with Chronic Renal Failure. She's having fluids every week, a diet without ANY diuretics (parsley, dandelions).

She is to be kept comfy and all the time she's feeling well, we'll keep fighting with her. She just has particularly bad days, as the kidney failure is causing anaemia, whicih makes her run out of energy very quickly, as the low red blood count means oxygen isnt getting round her system - so we have to help.

SO, she's having fluids and being tested again at the end of a 4 week period.

She has a diet of SS Pellets, unlimited GOOD QUALITY hay, Dill, Basil and Coriander and Thyme each day.

She's drinking ~800ml per 24hrs from what we can work out right now.

We are currently investigating the use of Fortekor (Cat/Dog) for use in Ginger, to try and help her stay with us for longer.

(NB: i must add, this is something she may have had from birth, as she has other issues, from bad breeding with genetic issues)

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This is exactly what I would suggest.
the time to get really worried is when they start to 'give up' on drinking too much as the whole thing has got too bad - and even then you can ease their path for a short while. They may have a long time to live till then! Sounds like you may need to ask for referral to a rabbit specialist

Thanks guys, good to know. I just found this and would value your Olomouc on it. Thanks.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/Geriatric-Rabbit-Possible-Renal-1.htm

That link is basically describing my situation, although we are adding the additional subcut fluids, to enable her to flush her system easier and ease the amount she has to drink.

Ginger has additional issues (genetic based) and one of those in that her jaw doesnt close fully at the back, so her rear molars dont ever get worn down by the grinding action of eating hay. That said, her hay eating is extremely important to do the little grinding that does occur and keep the rest of her teeth in check. Ensuring that she spends a lot of time in the litter tray, means managing her time in a way that means she doesnt have to sit at a water bowl all day and can sit in the litter tray eating hay instead, hence the subcut fluids once a week at the vets.

Thanks Graham. I always find it interesting reading what people are actually doing rather than just reading some random persons opinion on the Internet.

I am afraid that Oliver is not doing well and becoming unable to keep up with cleaning himself. While i am happy to look after him and provide for him, I think the decision will have to be made for him to be pts. It is really really hard and not taken lightly. My buns take up all my financial resources and we do not want to rehome him to somewhere that we cannot guarantee he will have all of his special needs met, he is blind as well.

There are so many other rabbits needing homes and Oliver is not going to be with us much longer, even with supportive care. I know you will think we are giving up on this wee one's life but unfortunately we are coming to realise that are many difficult decisions in have to make in order to help the most rabbits. I am not looking forward to this week. I am always happy to see my charges rehomed although I miss them when they are gone. The thought of taking this wee guy to the vet and coming home without him is heartbreaking.

Graham, on another note, what you say about her teeth is very interesting. My other foster bun Rambo has a similar problem in that his molars all but miss each other. In his original home he was never fed hay, only Wagg bunny mix. He is now three and I am working hard to get him munching on hay. He only picks it up nibbles it in half then drops it. I have tried many types including readigrass, supreme meadow hay, hay with dried dandelions, mixtures of dried flowers and herbs. I am currently waiting for a sample from hay for pets to see if he'll like one of theirs.

I have given him hay stuffed in toilet rolls, put some on the roof of his night hutch for him to pull through the bars, I have mixed his veg and fresh herbs through it and nothing seems to work. I have managed to wean him onto Chudleys and he will also eat some pellets although he only gets a tiny amount in the hope hunger will push him to try the hay. Any other ideas would be welcome!

Aliduncan 1 re hay.
I can see a few potential problems.
If Rambo has never been fed hay believe it or not, he may not realise that it's food. Some bunnies start to try hay when they see others eat it or are partnered with a good hay eater. As you are doing already, a good quality hay helps here too.
2nd plan some bunnies start to eat it if you pour a thick soup of pellets over it.

If he has severely maloccluded teeth he may not be able to get the right movement to grind the hay. Although chopping hay to small pieces is usually done for buns without incisors it sometimes works for malocclusion.

Finally I've known a few buns who have a really slow gut cos they've never had enough fiber. They just can't get the daily throughput in to manage the good low nutrient hay. These buns do well if you start by giving the fiber as safe tree leaves to speed up the gut mixed in with hay. Once the gut speeds up they take to hay like a duck to water.

Hope that gives you some ideas to work on!

Sorry I missed your post about Oliver.
I understand the situation completely. I agree that his chances of a forever home are zero (for a last few weeks of terminal care, uninsurable, high vets bills).
I can see very clearly how in HIS case, your decision is in HIS best interests.
I'm so sorry. I can only begin to understand what a difficult & painful decision it must have been for all concerned.
Big HUGS.

I took Oliver to the vet today to have chat about him and really the appt was to put him to sleep. Since making the appt I have had a feeling it was the wrong thing for him at this moment. He still enjoys life, loves his food,climbs onto boxes, the cat tree and into the dirty litter bucket.:lol:

I discussed with hubby the possibility of keeping him myself and we decided he could have a home here for as long as was necessary as long as his quality of life wasn't affected.

I went to see the vet who said it was up to me but given that he had gained weight since his last visit, was happy and bright there was no clinical reason for him to be pts. I was so happy . I have agreed with the vet that I will weigh him weekly and watch him like a hawk. Any change in his behaviour or appetite will be noted. We are letting him regulate his own fluid level and if he deteriorates then we will make the decision to pts.

So, Thumps, thank you for your support through making a difficult decision. Knowing you thought the decision was reasonable really helped! It is good knowing that he now has a 'forever home'!

Graham, I would love any advice you can give me for caring for a bun with kidney failure. Diet, exercise and red flags to watch out for.:wave:

Thats great! He sounds like he has a good while of happy life ahead of him yet.

We did try Fortekor with Viola Rose but it was far too late for her by the time we started - but you may want to explore it.

:wave:That's the best news in a long time. You're one in a million.
I'll help to keep Oliver's gastrointestinal tract working well as much as I can.

thumps_ said:

:wave:That's the best news in a long time. You're one in a million.
I'll help to keep Oliver's gastrointestinal tract working well as much as I can.

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All embarrassed now :roll: Thanks for the help, we're going to need it!

I have a bunny with very similar symptoms - excessive drinking and urinating. He has high calcium blood levels and high urea and creatinine (I think - memory not good at the moment) which indicated a significant amount of kidney damage - I am never quite sure if this is the same a chronic renal failure - but anyway. He was getting a lot of urine scald and very sore and a few weeks ago I had got to the same point where I was asking myself how do you know when they are in too much discomfort

But actually in himself he is so happy and cheeky and mischievous, loves his food and the urine scald has healed and the fur regrowing. Its hard work to keep him and his environment clean all the time but I love him so much and I look at him and apart from the weeing and being a bit skinny is no different to any other bunny - he doesnt in fact seem to know he is ill!!

So I hope that gives you some sense of others having been in a similar position and knowing how hard it is but also how rewarding and special these bunnies are Though I do understand where you were coming from with fostering this wee guy.

Muesli isnt actually on any medication - my vet said there was no treatment for hi - but has done a specialist referral so I have my fingers crossed that we may be able to offer something to help him.

Anyway the point of me posting was just to say I am happy to hear that he has a home with you now (lucky boy) and that there are several people here who are going through similar things with their buns.

Thank you for your post helgalush, I appreciate the support. It is hard trying to do the right thing. :roll: This may sound callous but I am not going to go to the lengths people do when it is their much loved pet who develops these symptoms - expensive medication etc.

I am happy to extend his life for as long as I can, because he has been like this since I got him a few weeks ago I have always known what the end game is for him which makes it easier. If it was a healthy bun whom I had had for years and knew their history then I would probably be exploring every option available.

The rescue is considering blood tests to find out exactly how bad things are. It would be good to know exactly what stage he is at so we have an idea of how long things have been bad for him. In the meantime I have a beautiful bun that I love, he has long hair and sits for ages to be groomed and is great with the kids. He tolerates my three year old picking him up and sits on her knee while she watches tv. She has a really great attitude to the buns. She doesn't chase or annoy them, always holds their chest and bottom and knows to put them down when they start wriggling because they have had enough.

I am rambling now! Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it. I hope you get your specialist appointment soon. It will be very interesting to hear what they say. :wave:

aliduncan1 said:

I took Oliver to the vet today to have chat about him and really the appt was to put him to sleep. Since making the appt I have had a feeling it was the wrong thing for him at this moment. He still enjoys life, loves his food,climbs onto boxes, the cat tree and into the dirty litter bucket.:lol:

I discussed with hubby the possibility of keeping him myself and we decided he could have a home here for as long as was necessary as long as his quality of life wasn't affected.

I went to see the vet who said it was up to me but given that he had gained weight since his last visit, was happy and bright there was no clinical reason for him to be pts. I was so happy . I have agreed with the vet that I will weigh him weekly and watch him like a hawk. Any change in his behaviour or appetite will be noted. We are letting him regulate his own fluid level and if he deteriorates then we will make the decision to pts.

So, Thumps, thank you for your support through making a difficult decision. Knowing you thought the decision was reasonable really helped! It is good knowing that he now has a 'forever home'!

Graham, I would love any advice you can give me for caring for a bun with kidney failure. Diet, exercise and red flags to watch out for.:wave:

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Thats just the best news after i've just read what i have about another persons bun and

I'm so chuffed he has a forever home with you until he is ready.

I'm really not the best person, i'm only going on what my vet has suggested, along with thumps_ and what i've read of Viola Rose, parsnipbun's poor bunny with kidney failure.

I can tell you what i do, but thats pretty much it.

Ginger has likely had this issue since birth, so its not quite the same as 'developing it' from anything as such. Her genetics are quite messed up and her organs are not fully grown as they should be.

That said, we keep her on a diet of 15 SS pellets per day, ~25 profibre pellets (this is slowly increasing upon recommendation from vet) unlimited VERY HIGH QUALITY hay, Coriander, Dill, Basil and Thyme and ~15 bramble leaves (this has increased from 5 as her gut is holding up well on them).

It's important to keep on a diet that involves NO diuretics, as that has the opposite effect to waht we want. We need to keep fluid levels up to flush the system, so, we avoid dandelions, parsley and i'm currently going through a list of other herbs (we dont feed greens at all anymore) to check for diuretic properties. This is something i was going to ask thumps_ about, but haven't had the chance as of yet.

We are also having weekly subcut fluids at the vet and monthly blood tests (2nd one this friday coming) to keep track of how she's coping.

I'm certainly no expert, i have no idea what im doing really, im just doing as my vet says along with the wonderful people here. (i run everything i read here past my vet BEFORE i do it - this is not a reflection on trust, but he needs to know what we're doing, so he doesn't counteract anything etc).

Keep as many bowls of water available as you can, and keep it fresh. Stale water is not preferable. Ginger gets through 3 'rabbit' bowls of water a day, easily, probably more. I've measured this and its approximately 800ml, but i do top them up through the day so its probably more.

I really hope he can stay with you for a good period of time, and that he enjoys his new forever home

You really are, as thumps_ says - one in a million for knowingly taking on a terminal bun.

Good luck and loads of good times vibes.

Thanks Graham. I find all the experience you have through trial and error with Ginger invaluable. Thumps has very kindly offered to gather leaves for him after they helped Ginger so much.

It is interesting to see you have cut out greens. I have been weaning my guys off the greens because in summer they have unlimited access to grass from 8am to 7ish and I like to keep their diet as natural as I can. I am assuming grass is ok for him as well as hay. :roll:

I have just had samples delivered from hay for pets and am working out what they want by giving them 2 to try at a time. Last night it was between meadow and timothy hay. They ignored the latter and Millie ran off with the bag of meadow hay and settled down to a good munch!! :lol: I will try meadow and ings today with Oliver and order a big bag. I am lucky to have a huge tarp covering two outdoor hutches so can store big things like hay under there too.

Thanks for the explanations about Ginger. I have been swinging - as I am sure you must do - between happy and very sad when I have read her thread.

aliduncan1 said:

Thanks Graham. I find all the experience you have through trial and error with Ginger invaluable. Thumps has very kindly offered to gather leaves for him after they helped Ginger so much.

It is interesting to see you have cut out greens. I have been weaning my guys off the greens because in summer they have unlimited access to grass from 8am to 7ish and I like to keep their diet as natural as I can. I am assuming grass is ok for him as well as hay. :roll:

I have just had samples delivered from hay for pets and am working out what they want by giving them 2 to try at a time. Last night it was between meadow and timothy hay. They ignored the latter and Millie ran off with the bag of meadow hay and settled down to a good munch!! :lol: I will try meadow and ings today with Oliver and order a big bag. I am lucky to have a huge tarp covering two outdoor hutches so can store big things like hay under there too.

Thanks for the explanations about Ginger. I have been swinging - as I am sure you must do - between happy and very sad when I have read her thread.

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Welcome, anything to help!

Before we found out about Ginger's renal issues, we were told she wasn't 'bunny'. Most bunnies apparently have a fatty mass around their organs, which protects them and keeps them encased. Ginger's missing most of this and she's had scans which show this. This means we have the added issue of possible organ trauma, so in theory, we have to be extra careful about heights etc, but in all honesty, she lives in the same way as Biscuit and it just would NOT be viable to protect her from the world. She'll have the life of a normal bunny as much as possible. Her teeth not meeting up, as mentioned is part of this 'bad breeding' - etc etc.

We cut out greens, as they are not beneficial to her, and we reduced her pellets by ~60% to encourage hay eating. Fortunately, she's a hay monster and will eat the hay for pets stuff til it comes out of her ear holes if she could! A mix of Meadow / Ings is what they are having and we're getting through ~2kg in 6 days :shock: But thats all good and shows their hay is excellent for my buns. Side effect is, Biscuit eats more hay, which is just excellent.

Grass is excellent, but just be wary its spring grass, so is VERY rich in comparison, so it needs introducing slowly before they are just given an unlimited amount if they aren't used to it - if they are however, just let them get on with it in my eyes

As parsnipbun says - it gets bad when they want to give up and not drink. We've had that moment a few times, where Ginger's given up for a day or two, and we really have to get her going again. Thats one of her bad days but we always get through them.

I've found (with help from thumps_ again ) that if Ginger drinks too much (you'd never think that was possible, would you?) her gut becomes so full of water, she can't eat. This knocked her into stasis a couple of weeks back.

Another thing to be aware of (sorry i'll stop rambling in a minute!) is that the use of NSAID based pain medicines such as metacam should in theory be avoided, as they can cause GI ulceration with high urea levels i think it is (judy, correct me if im wrong please, im regurgitating information!) so alternative pain relief should be used. So far, we've not had to worry about this, apart from the stasis episode, when we actually had a home visit from the vet, as he didnt want her stressed and he actually gave her metacam as thats all he had on him, but it was only a small dose and enough to help her out along with metaclop to make her want to eat.

Don't think i've ever typed so much on RU in a few posts :shock:

And yes, we swing back and forth, good day, bad day. I sit here either crying, or laughing and smiling at her

Not rambling, being very helpful:thumb:. He has been on grass in the run every day when the weather is ot too bad so is hopefully getting used to it gradually. I am fortunate to be a stay at home mum which means the buns all get plenty outside time. Hubby work in the conservatory and keeps an eye on my own two who free range in the back garden.

I hope you don't get RSI from typing so much, I am glad that all the typing is going to help my blind, tail-less and kidney problems bunny.