When do you know it's time to let go. E.C

My darling little cookie has E.C . He's been on panucur for over 4 weeks and has been on a steroid for about 3 weeks and baytril for the last 2 weeks.
Cookie head tilt is very bad and he's still rolling a lot of the time.
We are back to the vets in the morning but at the last appointment the vet said if there's no improvment we'll have to decide what's best for Cookie( he mean't putting him to sleep )

Cookie needs a lot of care which I've been able to do because I have been off work for 4 weeks. My husband has arranged to change the hours of work next week to make sure someone is here for Cookie almost all the time.
My mum has just seen Cookie (1st time in 4 weeks) and she doesn't think we should carry on she thinks he needs to go to sleep

I have contacted Bristol hospital and they can't advise me but will speak to my vet regarding treatment.
Shall I keep going or do you think 4 weeks with no change is enough ?

I can't offer advice but just wanted to say how sorry I am...thinking of you and Cookie xxx

My boy Kermit took months to recover.
Is Cookie eating and drinking ok? Is he trying to get about?

My boy rolled ALOT for months and months, then even after that still rolled a bit from time to time.

Everyone used to tell me i was being cruel to Kermit. Then they seen him months later, managing to run about and looking like a happy bunny, they realised they were all wrong

It was about 3-4 weeks into Mischa's treatment that the vet said PTS was to be thought about. We were seeing improvement though. Less rolling and he was still eating and attempting to move about. Also the swaying movement and nystagmus stopped. If he was always sitting in the corner of his cage not even trying to move I would've agreed. But he was still interested in things.

It's such a hard thing to witness and remain strong and positive, I've been through it also x

Have you started Cookie on Stemitil? I was recommended it (suggestion from RU member!) and it stopped the rolling completely and she's now 100% fit again

Kermit said:

My boy Kermit took months to recover.
Is Cookie eating and drinking ok? Is he trying to get about?

My boy rolled ALOT for months and months, then even after that still rolled a bit from time to time.

Everyone used to tell me i was being cruel to Kermit. Then they seen him months later, managing to run about and looking like a happy bunny, they realised they were all wrong

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Yes he's eating like a little pig, he is drinking but for some reason he'll only drink if I lie him down like a little baby and then he'll drink out of a bottle.
Yes he's trying to get about he doesn't lie around all the time he sits up most of the time but loses his balance a lot.

This is only my very unprofessional opinion but it sounds to be like he still has a lot of fight! If he were just not moving and stuff, you would be able to tell that he had given up

karen354 said:

Yes he's eating like a little pig, he is drinking but for some reason he'll only drink if I lie him down like a little baby and then he'll drink out of a bottle.
Yes he's trying to get about he doesn't lie around all the time he sits up most of the time but loses his balance a lot.

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To me he seems like he is trying to fight this. The fact that he is eating well is great.

I really do feel for you as i do know first hand how distressing it is seeing them like this, but i always felt that as long as Kermit was wanting to survive, then i would do my best to help him. And i know how you feel when people give you the guilt trip about being cruel etc.

karen354 said:

Yes he's eating like a little pig, he is drinking but for some reason he'll only drink if I lie him down like a little baby and then he'll drink out of a bottle.
Yes he's trying to get about he doesn't lie around all the time he sits up most of the time but loses his balance a lot.

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Well that's good, he hasn't given up. Although I haven't experienced E.C., the threads I have read by those who have, all suggest the same thing, that it can take a very long time for a bun to recover and they will sometimes get worse before they get better. Gemmapookie went through this a few months ago, this is her thread, it might help:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=227533


Good luck with Cookie, it sounds like he's still fighting. I hope your vet gets some good advice from the Bristol hospital xxx

Lots of vibes for Cookie - it sounds like he's a little fighter x

Hi,
i went through this a few months back with my Mimi. Debster has put a link to her thread up (thanku Debster!) I really feel for u both, its soooo hard

Mimi rolled continuously for just over 4 weeks then gradually started to improve after that. It was still another 3wks before she completely stopped and even after that her head was still tilted for a long time (still is a teeny bit.)

mimis was due to an inner ear infection which my vet treated with Marbocyl. Apparantly with this kind of infection baytril is offen not strong enough. I know Cookie has been diagnosed with EC, but there could be a secondary infection there so it might be worth talking to ur vet re. getting her onto some strong broad spectrum abx. Mimi was also on Meclizone (same class of drug as Stemetil mentioned above) which is a human anti vertigo drug.

I think it might also be worth him coming off the steroids, as if there is an infection present it wont be helping. Metacam is a great substitute and really helped Mimi through it.

Personally i think dont give up yet. I think theres still options to try and Cookie is fighting it

From what you say I wouldn't give up yet either. I know it's really tough. I cried a lot of tears when Mischa was ill. I got lots of cuddles though cos in my arms he wouldn't roll and was much more comfortable so we'd sit watching the tv together with him laying on my chest. As you can imagine we have a very close bond now. But at the time it was extremely distressing, for him and me.

have you tried a specialist referral for him to a specialist vet? (eg Bristol or Edinburgh depending where you are) steroids are not that great for buns and he doesn't seem to have metacam (which will help with any swelling etc and is essential in EC).

Have ears been thoroughly examined and x-rayed etc as well as the EC diagnosis?

I have had 3 EC cases with tilt and they do take months - but ear infections have to be ruled out to.

Jess had this a while ago. She wasn't really that bad over all but by day 28 of panacur (I was told to give her a 28 day course) she still hadn't shown any real signs of improvement, she was almost still the same as day one. I continued her panacur for another two weeks or so and in the end, the recovery was rapid and happened over three or four days. She just seemed to decide one day to straighten up her head and quit flapping about.

I thought many times that I was being cruel - specifically when I picked her up and triggered the rolling. I stopped picking her up and just hearded her into a corner to get her meds into her and that seemed to help. I found it so frustrating that when I picked her up, I couldn't get her to sit straight on my lap. I felt like she was doing it on purpose to annoy me. I threw the tube of Panacur at the wall on a few occasions. Picking her up set her and me off and as soon as I stopped moving her about I noticed her start to pick up again.

I think I prove that it's very important to keep yourself calm and positive as well as the bunny! :roll::lol:

I hope Cookie will pull through.

Did you join the forum I suggested and ask about head tilt on there?

Its time to let a bunny go when they let you know. You will feel it in your gut. Trust your gut instinct and keep asking what is best for Cookie right now, and you won't go wrong.

After reading some stories of people struggling to pick up their EC bunnies I'm even more amazed that Mischa would just sit with me. I wouldn't hold him, he'd just lay there on my chest, comfy as anything when in his cage he'd roll and roll and roll. I knew when he was getting better cos he wouldn't sit there anymore and wanted to get off onto the bed to explore.

You know when he got ill that was the first time I'd never set foot in a vets He was 1. I didn't even have a carrier, I held him all the way wrapped in a towel.

Schuette said:

After reading some stories of people struggling to pick up their EC bunnies I'm even more amazed that Mischa would just sit with me. I wouldn't hold him, he'd just lay there on my chest, comfy as anything when in his cage he'd roll and roll and roll. I knew when he was getting better cos he wouldn't sit there anymore and wanted to get off onto the bed to explore.

You know when he got ill that was the first time I'd never set foot in a vets He was 1. I didn't even have a carrier, I held him all the way wrapped in a towel.

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I took Diego to the vets in a towel for his final journey. I tried putting him in a carrier but he just twisted himself into the most awkward shapes so I carried him and put him in the box when we got to the car park.

Thank you all for the replies
I've contacted Bristol hospital and they will speak with my vet but not with me. Even though Cookie is seeing the vet tomorrow I've emailed them today to see if they can contact Bristol.
I would go to Bristol but it's a very long way from us maybe 3 hours or could be more.

georgie_f said:

I took Diego to the vets in a towel for his final journey. I tried putting him in a carrier but he just twisted himself into the most awkward shapes so I carried him and put him in the box when we got to the car park.

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I think when they are distressed it may be better for them than in a box on their own. I did that with Smudge after his neuter, held him on the back seat cos he was stressed.

It took our Wilson a good 6 - 7 weeks to stop rolling with his headtilt But eventually we did it & he was well enough not to be confined to a cage & now lives very happily with his wifey Alice - wonky head & all.

Wilson had weeks of various drugs - baytril, depocillin injections, stemetil, metacam then steroid injections. I am convinced it was only when we switched him onto Zithromax that he started to recover - within a week of having Zithromax, he was back with Alice & has never looked back since. It's a human abx & isn't licensed to for use in buns, but then not many drugs are.

I found out about it from bunnymadlisa on here who recommended the 'On the wonk' forum. I firmly believe it saved Wilson's life - of course you have to accept that you are taking a risk with it as it's not licensed. We just felt we were running out of options & it was a case of try it & hope for the best. Our vet was fully supportive of giving it a try & for us it was the thing that helped most.

Throughout Wilson's illness he never stopped eating, pooping, drinking or washing - that's how we knew he didn't want to go anywhere

Good luck with Cookie, I really hope you can fight this - lots & lots of vibes for your brave boy xxx