Dexter, Misty and Trouble's re-bonding

Hi I have been advised to open this thread in this part of the forum, I started of with an ill bunny, but now the recent bonding has failed.

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=201296

All bunnies are rescue so their age is uncertain.

Dexter - 4 year old neutered (Feb 08 ) Male
Trouble - 18 month old neutered (Feb 09) Male
Misty - 1 year old spayed (Sept 09) female

Trouble and Dexter have been bonded since March.

The original bond with Misty failed (Sept 15) about 8 hrs after we got her home, she was terrified of both of them, but it was mainly Trouble.

She hadn't been neutered yet and we got her done a week later.

All the time we had her, they were able to see her, we rotated each day between the pen and the cage to avoid territorial problems.

All three spent every day in the garden for an hour or two and they would spend meal times together.

This seemed to work fine for a month (although we were concerned that Misty was a lot friendlier with Dexter, it seemed that Trouble was being left out of the grooming, she is the only groomer, my two boys never bother) and then last Saturday we put them together permanently, everything was fine.

Dexter developed bloat this Saturday night just gone (only together one week) and had to be hospitalised, we got him back Monday, but he has to be monitored so he has had to remain separate.

Monday night and Tuesday day we continued our normal routine and everything was fine. Only this time the pair were Misty and Trouble rather than Dexter and Trouble, but the three of them spent garden and meal time together without a problem.

Tuesday night's feed was awful and everyone started fighting, there was fur everywhere, but no one was hurt.

Misty and Trouble were ok afterwards and Trouble and Dexter were too, but Misty and Dexter kept fighting.

I originally separated all three but I was advised to put Misty and Trouble back together as they we not the problem, so I did and they are fine.

I did let all three of them out in the garden today and they were so-so, a few times I had to intervene, but there was no fighting only a few chases.

When they went back in the shed, I noticed that it seems to be both of them, sometimes Dexter just starts chasing Misty and other times she goes behind him and tries to nip his bum.

The strange thing is she is grooming him and he keeps putting his head down for her to do so, this is what normally leads into to either one of them chasing the other.

They can see and sniff each other all of the time, through the bars, I have been advised to keep them this way and not separate them entirely.

Dexter has only been home a few days so he still has a lot of recuperating to do, but I just want to make sure that I am doing the right thing before I try to bond them again at a later date.

Although Trouble did have a nasty tumble around with Dexter they have been fine since, Trouble is getting on with both rabbits perfectly.

I think Misty might be jealous of Dexter now, or is she picking on him because he is week?

Are they ok being able to see each other?

Is it ok to keep Misty and Trouble together, or should I separate them all and start from scratch?

Is it right to swap their towels and things around so they get the other bunnies smell?

Dexter has the free run of the shed to encourage movement so I can not rotate them like I did before, will this cause a problem?

I am really concentrating on getting Dexter better at the moment, but I don't want to make a rod for my own back, please let me know if I am making any terrible mistakes.

Thank you, I am sorry for the long post but I didn't want to leave out anything I thought maybe important.

Just bumping this up in the hope that one of our bonding experts sees it and is able to give advice

From reading your thread I am a little confused about how you are going about doing it as it appears as some stage one pair seems to be together and at one time they are in the garden, you also mention a pen, shed and a cage.

I bond lots of bunnies each year and find that moving them about when bonding them confuses them and also makes bonding more stressful and can also result in fighting due to the need to exert dominance in new places.

If I was to bond three rabbits together, I would start off with a car journey, then put all 3 together in a neutral place which would be about 5 x 2 foot and leave them in the same place for a minimum of 72 hours. I woudl then move them into part of their new accomodation which is about the same size as I started and has been neutralised and leave them there for a further 48 hours until they have settled. Then slowly increasing the space every 48 hours. I would only start if I have time to continue to bond, if I didnt have enough time to start and get on I woud leave it until I did have the time.

If a pair of your buns appears to be happy together leave them for a few weeks to settle before adding the additional bun to that pair.

I personally do not swap accomodation or anything of each other as I dont find a need to do so as I have a good success rate using the 'get on with it' method. If you are bonding buns ensure that everything is neutral.

Thank you for your reply.

I have never done any bonding before, so anything I know is through what I have been told/read.

Dexter and Trouble were originally bonded and got on great.

They were bonded with Misty by a rescue centre and it was fine, but something must have happened because Misty suddenly didn't want either of the boys near her.

We tried to persevere, but in the end we had to remove her because she was terrified and didn't move for hours, all she did was whine every time either boy moved, but her main problem was Trouble who couldn't even jump into the litter tray 3 feet away from her without setting her off. My two boys seemed very confused also.

I had read advice from other people who have bonded rabbits saying to change their surroundings so they do not get territorial, obviously that is not the way you have done it and to be honest, your way seems easier because moving them around was a pain.

We allowed Misty to join the boys in the garden, at first she was in a pen and after a while, free to run like they were, she also joined them for meal times and it went well, we may have been able to put them together earlier as they were getting on so well, but we didn't want to rush things and upset her again.

The day we put them together for 24/7 was perfect, not one scuffle, they instantly cuddled up and stayed doing so for a week until Dexter got ill and we had to take him away.

He stayed away from them for two days, at first I thought it could make things better because Misty was a lot closer to Dexter and I thought that Misty and Trouble spending a few days together could be a good thing.

His first night home was fine, he had to stay separate because we were monitoring him, but he could see Misty and Trouble through the bars. They had dinner together and the next day went into the garden together, but the following dinner they all fought.

The vet has said that we should monitor Dexter for another week and allow him to return to normal before we start bonding again, I just wanted to make sure that in the mean time I am not doing anything wrong by letting them see each other.

To be honest, even though I have made up a nice box with towels for Dexter to sit in, away from the other two, just in case he felt unwell and didn't want them to see his weakness, he has chose not to sit in it and has permanently been sitting next to the bars where they sit, I think moving him away would hinder his recovery anyway. Even though they are fighting they seem to miss each other, Dexter runs around the pen trying to get in and they up at the bars trying to get out.

I think I have answered my own question to be honest, although it has taken me another long post to do so.

Sorry

Thank you for the information on bonding, it seems that some people have different ways of doing it, but I think everybody agrees in the main things which I believe are a bit of fear (the bunnies not me), a small neutral territory, a glove or something so I don't get bitten and a lot of patience.

I need some advice.

Both Misty and Dexter had bloat, Misty also has peritonitis which showed to have significantly reduced on her x-ray Monday.

I started re-bonding them last thursday, I was all ready, neutral territory, slippers on hands and ....nothing! After a bit of curiosity they all laid down and have been cuddling ever since.

Tonight however, the fighting has started, I didn't see who started it, I just see Dexter & Misty running around each other, but not as nasty as they were a few weeks ago. It is difficult to see who is starting it, it seems that sometimes she nips him and he chases her and other times it is the other way around.

I think she tried to nip at Trouble but he just sensed her and moved, he has not been getting involved.

The strange thing is they stopped fighting for a few hours and laid together happily, she was even grooming him, but then it started again, I am wondering whether it might be food related or when they get excited, as it started again when I started moving around and then gave them hay.

I don't get it, as I type Dexter is cleaning himself and Misty is trying to nuzzle in.

Everything is the same as when I started a week ago, except we have progressed to about half an hour of freedom in the garden as of yesterday, but they were fine and they were back indoors hours before the trouble started.

The other strange thing is Misty rarely grooms Trouble, but she grooms Dexter at every opportunity and he puts his head down for her to, but now she wants to bite him, maybe she is grooming too hard, I just don't know.

Dexter is now eating hay and she is laying up against his bum and neither rabbit seems weary, I was going to put then back in the shed tomorrow, but I am not sure I can now.

Does anyone know what is going on and if so, what can I do?

Things are still the same today, loads of cuddles and fighting, does anyone know what is going on?

Hello! Am reading on my phone so can't read it very well or write much..sounds like normal bonding behaviour to me. You must keep them in the same space for at least a week, no moving them or letting them in garden as that will set them off. They need time to fully establish the bond in 1 place. If you keep moving them they will see it as new territory to defend. Leave them in a smaller Area,try not to touch them much for a few days and leave them in the same place and they should calm down x

Thank you for replying Santa

I felt it was a natural progression after four days of cuddles that they would be ok in the garden for a short time, especially seeings this is their third bond now, but it does sound like it may have been too soon, they haven't been out since the fighting started.

They have been ok tonight, they have been sitting/laying next to each other now for hours, I think this is what worries me, there is all this calmness and cuddles, followed by wanted to kill each other... anyone would think they were human, lol.

OK, so they are staying put and I will touch them less, I am glad you said this was normal, I was starting to feel that as this is their third try at bonding that it will never work, any patience was pointless and that they just don't like each other, but you have given me hope that it is worth persevering.

I really need some help.

They have been indoors, in their pen since Thursday, we can have many hours of 'nice' and then the nipping and chasing starts, nothing has really changed in four days.

Please help, this is my first time at bonding and I am at the end of my tether.

Yesterday evening, all through the night and this morning they have been fine, my OH walked in and Misty started nipping Dexter.

I don't know whether it was the excitement, I was up until 6.30am with them this morning so I was asleep and Stuart did come in and open the curtains.

Stuart had read somewhere that men can upset things, is it his presence?

He has never been a threat to her, he shouts less than me, he has never handled her and he has hand fed her quite often, but not since they have been indoors.

If it is him, well... I can't exactly take Stuart back, his mum wont have him, lol, is there anything he can do to be liked again?