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Excessively peeing

MightyMax said:
How's Teddy doing? I was thinking of you this morning :)
Click to expand...

Good evening MightyMax :wave:

Only just noticed your last post so, sorry as my reply is hugely overdue!

Well, I completed 5 weeks of Panacur which is, I believe, one week more than was necessary. He is, generally, doing ok although he has peed outside of the tray on occasions, but nothing as bad as it was prior to the course of Panacur. I am also still changing his litter tray twice a day, which I think in the accepted norm is still way too much - especially as he is in the garden as well, but I think overall his output has improved for the better. I also wonder if the tray gets so soiled as I don't use a conventional litter - but just paper and hay. I do believe EC can leave lasting damage to kidneys, but who knows as this is not actually a confirmed case of EC.

We did have to give him a 'minor' clean up in the week, but again it wasn't nearly as bad as prior to the Panacur.

Otherwise, I must admit he does still have the 'lump', which I am monitoring. The vet did say she didn't think it was anything untoward but I will probably end up having to take him back for another look. I and probably just about everyone else I guess, hate taking him to the vet. I always expect bad news and it stresses him out no end :(

The other thing with Teddy is, I don't know his age. The rescue thought about 2 years when I got him around 4 or 5 years ago (must look that up), but judging by the way he (doesn't!) spring up from his litter tray, I suspect he is older. Not knowing his age doesn't really help, as ultimately if in the future treatments were to be explored, age does come into it as of course it might be worthwhile putting a youngster through an op/procedure etc. but we might have different considerations with an elderly bunny.

Thanks for asking :D I do hope all is well with your end!
 
cara said:
Good evening MightyMax :wave:

Only just noticed your last post so, sorry as my reply is hugely overdue!

Well, I completed 5 weeks of Panacur which is, I believe, one week more than was necessary. He is, generally, doing ok although he has peed outside of the tray on occasions, but nothing as bad as it was prior to the course of Panacur. I am also still changing his litter tray twice a day, which I think in the accepted norm is still way too much - especially as he is in the garden as well, but I think overall his output has improved for the better. I also wonder if the tray gets so soiled as I don't use a conventional litter - but just paper and hay. I do believe EC can leave lasting damage to kidneys, but who knows as this is not actually a confirmed case of EC.

We did have to give him a 'minor' clean up in the week, but again it wasn't nearly as bad as prior to the Panacur.

Otherwise, I must admit he does still have the 'lump', which I am monitoring. The vet did say she didn't think it was anything untoward but I will probably end up having to take him back for another look. I and probably just about everyone else I guess, hate taking him to the vet. I always expect bad news and it stresses him out no end :(

The other thing with Teddy is, I don't know his age. The rescue thought about 2 years when I got him around 4 or 5 years ago (must look that up), but judging by the way he (doesn't!) spring up from his litter tray, I suspect he is older. Not knowing his age doesn't really help, as ultimately if in the future treatments were to be explored, age does come into it as of course it might be worthwhile putting a youngster through an op/procedure etc. but we might have different considerations with an elderly bunny.

Thanks for asking :D I do hope all is well with your end!
Click to expand...


Good evening Cara, and nice to hear from you :D

I'm glad there seems to have been some improvement with young Teddy. The Panacur seems to have worked well for him, even though he still has issues. Twice a day, unless he's a really big hay eater and therefore drinker, is probably quite a lot, but hay and newspaper aren't as absorbent as some other litters. I use hay and newspaper and one of my rabbits needed changing twice daily :)

I take it the lump isn't getting any bigger or smaller? Can you remind me where it is again?
 
The lump is between his ears.

Although it was obvious to me, the vet actually struggled to feel it but then agreed it was there. I described it as 'Landscape' as rather than a contained round bump, as it has span to it, if that makes sense. I don't think it has particularly changed, but the general area does feel knobbly as he also has odd bits of clumpy fur there at the moment!
 
Teddy has got horribly mucky underneath once again, so having discussed other ways of dealing with his fur, such as clipping etc, we have unfortunately had to resort to a rear-end wash, which he finds very stressful.

I would say, he has definitely kept up the improvement in the output of peeing. Not sure it is normal though. Also, whilst we were washing him, he was like a fountain - frequently urinating ... is this something anyone else has encountered or is this signs of a problem?

He also has a patch of urine scald, although I say urine, it might be soft poop which is the cause. We have cleaned him up and dried him the best we can, at a very late hour (I have been working). And I have applied a little Vaseline (in the end I didn't get the any cream as intended for urine scald, as he improved so much at that time - I now regret this).

But I am struggling to get to grips why he is getting so mucky underneath. He is otherwise very happy and his usual self.

Also, washing him is a problem as I cannot get fur bone dry. How dry can I expect to get him? Will he dry properly if I try hard enough? Is it a big problem that I cannot get him thoroughly dry?

Any advice really welcome as I feel unsure where to start with what is actually wrong and how to make progress.
 
cara said:
Teddy has got horribly mucky underneath once again, so having discussed other ways of dealing with his fur, such as clipping etc, we have unfortunately had to resort to a rear-end wash, which he finds very stressful.

I would say, he has definitely kept up the improvement in the output of peeing. Not sure it is normal though. Also, whilst we were washing him, he was like a fountain - frequently urinating ... is this something anyone else has encountered or is this signs of a problem?

He also has a patch of urine scald, although I say urine, it might be soft poop which is the cause. We have cleaned him up and dried him the best we can, at a very late hour (I have been working). And I have applied a little Vaseline (in the end I didn't get the any cream as intended for urine scald, as he improved so much at that time - I now regret this).

But I am struggling to get to grips why he is getting so mucky underneath. He is otherwise very happy and his usual self.

Also, washing him is a problem as I cannot get fur bone dry. How dry can I expect to get him? Will he dry properly if I try hard enough? Is it a big problem that I cannot get him thoroughly dry?

Any advice really welcome as I feel unsure where to start with what is actually wrong and how to make progress.
Click to expand...

Urination when being handled often occurs if a Rabbit has been unable to fully empty their bladder for some reason-eg a neurological issue (EC) or bladder sludge/stones.

Personally I would want to get his fur clipped as that is the best way to manage keeping Bunny as clean and dry as possible. A Vet Nurse should be able to help with the fur trimming/clipping.

It is important that Teddy is completely dry after a bum bath as Rabbits can easily succumb to hypothermia. This is especially true for outdoor Rabbits, but applies to indoor Rabbits too.

What has the Vet suggested as the next step to try to ascertain the cause of Teddy's incontinence ?
 
Good morning Jacks-Jane. Thanks for your reply.

I have made an appointment at the vets tomorrow .. earliest I could fit around available appointments. My intention is to get Teddy clipped. He was clipped last visit at the vets, but although a lot of fur came off (he was kind of sheared!), I could not tell he had any last fur!

This morning he is nice and dry, thank goodness but very little evidence of pee in the tray. (The tray was changed at 12 a.m. this morning). I am so confused as to how much he should be peeing and what is normal. At it's worse, it was a great deal, both inside and outside the tray. It is definitely much less. But is this a good thing? One thing I have noticed is the pee outside the tray can be very orange. I know food can affect the colour. Are there any particular foods (apart from carrot, which I am avoiding at the moment), which affect the colour? It can sometimes just be a 'splash' of pee.

I am not letting him into the garden today as rain is forecast and I don't want to risk him getting wet and mucky ... feel very mean :(

My big problem is not knowing just how much he should be peeing ... too much, too little, or is it normal!
 
cara said:
Good morning Jacks-Jane. Thanks for your reply.

I have made an appointment at the vets tomorrow .. earliest I could fit around available appointments. My intention is to get Teddy clipped. He was clipped last visit at the vets, but although a lot of fur came off (he was kind of sheared!), I could not tell he had any last fur!

This morning he is nice and dry, thank goodness but very little evidence of pee in the tray. (The tray was changed at 12 a.m. this morning). I am so confused as to how much he should be peeing and what is normal. At it's worse, it was a great deal, both inside and outside the tray. It is definitely much less. But is this a good thing? One thing I have noticed is the pee outside the tray can be very orange. I know food can affect the colour. Are there any particular foods (apart from carrot, which I am avoiding at the moment), which affect the colour? It can sometimes just be a 'splash' of pee.

I am not letting him into the garden today as rain is forecast and I don't want to risk him getting wet and mucky ... feel very mean :(

My big problem is not knowing just how much he should be peeing ... too much, too little, or is it normal!
Click to expand...

Urinary output will vary depending on lots of different things. To me it sounds as though he may be holding his wee in until his bladder is VERY full. This could be due to him not being able to feel that his bladder is full (a neurological issue) or that weeing hurts (bladder sludge/stones, infection/cystitis). Red wee occurs due to various plant pigments in the diet. Red wee in itself is not a problem. Blood in the urine can make the urine appear darker, but it may not be that obvious and only detected by urinalysis (along with other possible abnormalities which would indicate bacterial infection).

I cant remember what diagnostics Teddy has had thus far ?
 
cara said:
Teddy has got horribly mucky underneath once again, so having discussed other ways of dealing with his fur, such as clipping etc, we have unfortunately had to resort to a rear-end wash, which he finds very stressful.

I would say, he has definitely kept up the improvement in the output of peeing. Not sure it is normal though. Also, whilst we were washing him, he was like a fountain - frequently urinating ... is this something anyone else has encountered or is this signs of a problem?

He also has a patch of urine scald, although I say urine, it might be soft poop which is the cause. We have cleaned him up and dried him the best we can, at a very late hour (I have been working). And I have applied a little Vaseline (in the end I didn't get the any cream as intended for urine scald, as he improved so much at that time - I now regret this).

But I am struggling to get to grips why he is getting so mucky underneath. He is otherwise very happy and his usual self.

Also, washing him is a problem as I cannot get fur bone dry. How dry can I expect to get him? Will he dry properly if I try hard enough? Is it a big problem that I cannot get him thoroughly dry?

Any advice really welcome as I feel unsure where to start with what is actually wrong and how to make progress.
Click to expand...


Hi Cara :wave:

Nice to hear from you again but sorry Teddy has got himself into a bit of a state.

Fur clipping/shearing as you've done in the past is very useful for keeping the surrounding skin from degrading.

I can't remember whether he has ever had tests done for bladder sludge? The way you describe him urinating whilst you were washing him is something I've encountered with sludge buns, but of course may not be the case with Teddy.

Has the vet ever done an X-ray of his bladder, or taken a sample of urine for analysis? If not, those might be things I would suggest to a vet when I next go .....

I always dry rabbits using a very gentle hairdryer setting. I find the fur is like a sponge, and just won't dry - even when clipped pretty short.
 
First opportunity to get back to you and have now been to the vets.

Until now, he had had an 'in house' urine test which had through up nothing untoward. And then been treated with baytril and panacur, to seemingly good effect.

Today they kept him in to wash and clip. He is very sore :cry: Teddy has silverdene (flamezine) applied and a sample of urnine sent off for analysis. True to form, he peed a lot.

I mentioned bladder sludge and bladder x-ray. The vet is going to speak to Molly (an authority in rabbits - Veger ? Or something like that) for an opinion.

So I do feel that everything is being done. In himself he is a very happy chappie so am thankful for that, but am none the wiser as to the cause unfortunately. Keeping him dry is not going to be easy!
 
cara said:
First opportunity to get back to you and have now been to the vets.

Until now, he had had an 'in house' urine test which had through up nothing untoward. And then been treated with baytril and panacur, to seemingly good effect.

Today they kept him in to wash and clip. He is very sore :cry: Teddy has silverdene (flamezine) applied and a sample of urnine sent off for analysis. True to form, he peed a lot.

I mentioned bladder sludge and bladder x-ray. The vet is going to speak to Molly (an authority in rabbits - Veger ? Or something like that) for an opinion.

So I do feel that everything is being done. In himself he is a very happy chappie so am thankful for that, but am none the wiser as to the cause unfortunately. Keeping him dry is not going to be easy!
Click to expand...

Molly Varga I expect.

http://mollyvargavet.co.uk/about/


If so I am sure your Vet will get some very useful advice as to diagnostics and treatment options :)
 
cara said:
First opportunity to get back to you and have now been to the vets.

Until now, he had had an 'in house' urine test which had through up nothing untoward. And then been treated with baytril and panacur, to seemingly good effect.

Today they kept him in to wash and clip. He is very sore :cry: Teddy has silverdene (flamezine) applied and a sample of urnine sent off for analysis. True to form, he peed a lot.

I mentioned bladder sludge and bladder x-ray. The vet is going to speak to Molly (an authority in rabbits - Veger ? Or something like that) for an opinion.

So I do feel that everything is being done. In himself he is a very happy chappie so am thankful for that, but am none the wiser as to the cause unfortunately. Keeping him dry is not going to be easy!
Click to expand...


Molly Varga is an excellent vet, and consulted by many on here :D

Poor Teddy and his soreness :(

Flamazine is an excellent healing ointment - glad you got that, as it's prescription only.

I hope the urine sample throws some light on the situation, and also whether he's got bladder sludge.
 
I do hope so :D

How often does flamazine have to be applied in your experience? The vet suggested twice a day, but he hates being handled in this way. Also, I am concerned he might be wet. Would I perhaps swish with a wet wipe type thingy first and apply? He had flamazine applied around 4 pm.
 
cara said:
I do hope so :D

How often does flamazine have to be applied in your experience? The vet suggested twice a day, but he hates being handled in this way. Also, I am concerned he might be wet. Would I perhaps swish with a wet wipe type thingy first and apply? He had flamazine applied around 4 pm.
Click to expand...

I have always applied it twice a day (for sore hocks). I dont use wet wipes on skin already sore from urine scald as IME it can make things worse. If Teddy is wet with wee then I'd gently dab the soiled skin with a wad of cotton wool that has been dampened in cooled boiled water. Then pat the skin dry using kitchen towel before applying the Flamazine xx
 
cara said:
I do hope so :D

How often does flamazine have to be applied in your experience? The vet suggested twice a day, but he hates being handled in this way. Also, I am concerned he might be wet. Would I perhaps swish with a wet wipe type thingy first and apply? He had flamazine applied around 4 pm.
Click to expand...


I know the vet has said twice daily, but I have used it once daily with excellent results on urine scald :)

A wet wipe may well do the job, or a wipe with a gentle flannel wrung out in warm water (a cheaper option). If you use wet wipes, make sure there's no alcohol in them.
 
Thanks both of you for your support .. it's invaluable and make me feel sooooo much better :) :wave:
 
Ha ha ... well in that case one more question please!

Just thinking, thinking, thinking .... I thought the Panacur had a marked effect initially. I gave home a four week course (plus one week as it happens). Is it at all possible he has had EC which has not been entirely eradicated?

Would there be any harm in repeating the course (other than it being a waste of time of course)?
 
cara said:
Ha ha ... well in that case one more question please!

Just thinking, thinking, thinking .... I thought the Panacur had a marked effect initially. I gave home a four week course (plus one week as it happens). Is it at all possible he has had EC which has not been entirely eradicated?

Would there be any harm in repeating the course (other than it being a waste of time of course)?
Click to expand...


OK, well my personal opinion here ... I wouldn't give another course without fully ruling out other causes. I would have a urine sample sent away, and an X-ray to detect any bladder sludge.

I have had rabbits (plural) have very severe reactions to Panacur. No drug is without it's side effects ....

However, that said, I would be guided by your vet, as they all have different takes on the subject of E.C. :D
 
cara said:
Ha ha ... well in that case one more question please!

Just thinking, thinking, thinking .... I thought the Panacur had a marked effect initially. I gave home a four week course (plus one week as it happens). Is it at all possible he has had EC which has not been entirely eradicated?

Would there be any harm in repeating the course (other than it being a waste of time of course)?
Click to expand...

I would discuss it with your Vet. In some cases it may be necessary to repeat the course of Panacur and to continue it for 6 weeks as opposed to 4. But I'd want more clarity on whether or not the problem is actually EC related before doing that.

Are you being ultra vigilant re minimising the risk of Teddy ingesting urine contaminated hay/food ? If the problem is EC related then the EC spores are she in the urine so a Rabbit can re-infect themselves if the eat any hay/food that may have been in contact with their wee.
 
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