Totally stumped (bit long, sorry!)

I'm hoping you guys might have some good ideas about what's wrong with Abbie. We're reasonably sure it's a build-up of gas, but can't work out what's causing it. It started just over a month ago, and the routine has happened every week now - fine during the week, then ill on Friday night/Sat morning (each time she gets ill we get her straight to the vet who give her an injection (meta-something - can't remember! )). It's almost freaky how it happens every friday/saturday without fail - yet their routine is the same everyday.

She has seemingly classic gas symptoms - not eating, can't get comfortable. The vets that have analysed her could all feel a gas build-up. Also quite a lot of noises which I thought sounded like her passing wind, but now I'm not sure - a sort of dull squeak (can't think how better to describe it!).

The same thing happened this weekend, so this time we agreed that this needed further investigation and the vet kept her in, gave her a general anaesthetic and x-rayed her (and had a good feel around whilst she was under). This has shown absolutely no problems whatsoever. She did say though that there wasn't a lot of gas in there, so maybe we're totally on the wrong track?

We discussed her diet and the vet seemed to think it was fine. We've not changed her pellets (Burgess excel) since we got her in early december. We'd been gradually reducing pellets in favour of carrots and celery (and the odd bit of cucumber, broccoli, basil and coriander), but they'd been on veggies for 4 weeks before this cropped up. They have constant access to readigrass and hay, although Abbie doesn't seem all that interested in either though, she seems to munch on newspaper now and again instead (the vet doesn't think it's this that's causing it).

All I can think of is:

1. We changed their litter to megazorb a week before the problem started, and we did see her nibbling on it a couple of times. Could this have caused it, and she just hasn't been treated for long enough? We got rid of it a week ago, and she's still ill, which suggests it's not this.

2. When she's 100%, she really does stick her nose into anything and everything, and eat anything she can get her paws on . Maybe she's eaten summat bad when we weren't looking? I'm not 100% on this as the garage and house are bunny proof - everything that we can move to head height has been moved!!

So both me and the vet are a bit stumped. Our other bunny is 100% fine (although he looks thoroughly disgusted right now as we've taken his girlfriend away!). Does anyone have any other ideas I could run past the vet when I pick her up tomorrow?

Thanks

Russ

Awwww Russ - Nothing like a bit of a challenge eh!!

I'm sure one of the guru's will be along soon to give you some additional advice but have you thought of going right back to basics - i.e take them off everything other than good quality fresh Hay - if you feel you need to give them pellets during this time restrict it to just a teaspoon. Do you pop some Avipro or similar in their water? - if not this might help also in rebalancing the gut.

Buffs and Cagney have had Statis probs at one time or another but I'm glad to say not on a regular weekend basis - blimey I'd be a nervous wreck - you've coped really well.
In both instances some of the best advice I've had on here is to take them off everything and then once they are stable and there are no reocurrances you can then re-introduce some light herbs etc.

You mention you have separated him from his bonded pal also - is there a reason for this - fighting etc - as this might stress him out as bonds are so close in bunnies.

Hope this gives you some initial thoughts - Bunnies eh! - there's never a dull moment.

We'd been gradually reducing pellets in favour of carrots and celery (and the odd bit of cucumber, broccoli, basil and coriander), but they'd been on veggies for 4 weeks before this cropped up.

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Generally the dark leafy greans are the best ones. Here's a list: http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html

It may be the difficulty in finding the problem is that its several things contributing rather than one obvious thing.

What are her poo's like during the problem? Do they stop, go small, hard, runny?

Has the vet checked a poop sample?

Tam

Years ago one of my rabbits was fine every day and had a gas attack literally every evening! After much consternation and research, I discovered the problem - stress........Sometimes this can cause a real problem in our sensitive little ones, especially when there seems to be a pattern about things and you have excluded all other reasons.

Good luck

Thanks bunnytales/tamsin/mightymax

Avipro - coincidentally just got some delivered this morning - I'd forgotten to ask the vet if I should start using it though so thanks very much for the reminder!

Poos - they don't stop, are a bit 'wetter' (but still hard, not runny) but are a bit smaller. And as Abbie doesn't move around much they get squashed a bit so they look like they're runny but I don't think they are. The vet commented that he could still feel poos being produced. She'd done a few in the carry case, I think the vet wasn't too worried about them. But when she is ill she seems to leave small wet patches around her poos.

Veggies - they've had spring greens without any bother. Our friends bought them some dark green cabbage leaves last week and Abbie started making those noises again as soon as she'd tucked into it, but it passed within a couple of hours. I'd never given them cabbage so I just thought I should steer clear of that. I suppose that could be a sign that she's just intolerant to certain veggies and it's my job to work out what?

Stress - hmm......what sort of things could this be? Our bunnies live in the garage and recently (just before Abbie started getting ill.....) we've had to start bringing the car into the garage overnight following some damage after the gales. It couldn't be summat like that could it?!

You mention you have separated him from his bonded pal also - is there a reason for this - fighting etc - as this might stress him out as bonds are so close in bunnies.

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oops - sorry! Dodgy description by me there - it was just that Giles looked like he was feeling lonely because we'd had to leave Abbie with the vet! They are very close actually, I'm beginning to understand just how close bonded bunnies get.

Bunnies eh! - there's never a dull moment.

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Nope! As hard as it is when they're ill, watching Giles sprint into the kitchen, realise he's running towards the wall, and then realise the only way he can stop is to slide on his bottom on the tiled floor for a metre or so more than makes up for it.... :lol: :lol: Then he goes and does it again and again and again.....

Yup, definitely sounds like a routine change thing to me!

At weekends we do things differently and that wreaks havoc on bunnies' routine feeling...my girls are always out of sorts slightly on Saturdays coz I'm home and things are "different"...

They just get used to certain things and patterns, etc. Do you bring the car in every night, or just on weekends?

Maaike_Butter said:

Do you bring the car in every night, or just on weekends?

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Every night, including the w/e.....we bring it in literally last thing at night, by which time they're back in the hutch. Then first thing in the morning we take it out, and leave the bunnies to have the run of the garage.

I thought about the fumes when we started bringing it in....we drive the car in forwards so no fumes are ever directed into the garage and towards the rabbits. But the more I think about it, the more it feels like this isn't a coincidence.

Could be that the fumes build up over the five days of you driving in and out and then settle down on the weekend, and then the process starts all over again, thus giving this Friday night effect?

As Totti is going through a similar (but not every weekend thank god) problem, I have become the leading expert on bunny poos. After 2 doses of metaclopramide his currants were still rock hard and small and he was given a third injection. Then they became bigger but softer and squishy, not the desired consistency. He's been munching hay all day and has had no veg for days (never had much anyway) and no pellets (much to his probable disgust) and his poos are.looking pretty fine to me and at least its now coming out the other end. So, hard as it is, I would really try for the hay and water routine (I'm also waiting for probiotics to arrive, then he'll start being a pratt and showing me up). Then re-introduce veg bit by bit and monitor to see if any of them are the offenders. Of course I could be totally wrong and it be something to do with the car but its another option.

Just thinking aloud as much as anything. Do any of your neighbours or you do anything really different on a friday or friday night? Seems to be too coincidental for it to be car fumes building up over a period... I wouold have though that the gas would disipate fairly quickly as the car is taken out of the garage regularly.


Ant, Claire and the pack

p.s. Is it Abi from bunny camp?? Claire wnats to know

luvabun said:

So, hard as it is, I would really try for the hay and water routine.

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Thanks - I think you're right - it does feel like we're unlikely to know for sure what's causing this so your suggestion is the only way to find out. My only reservation is that she's not overly fond of the hay and grass she has access to. But she does nibble occasionally which makes me think she would go for it rather than go hungry, given no other choice.

RussAb said:

luvabun said:

So, hard as it is, I would really try for the hay and water routine.

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Thanks - I think you're right - it does feel like we're unlikely to know for sure what's causing this so your suggestion is the only way to find out. My only reservation is that she's not overly fond of the hay and grass she has access to. But she does nibble occasionally which makes me think she would go for it rather than go hungry, given no other choice.

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Mine were fussy hay eaters but I've found they like the Oxbow Timothy (very expensive); hay from Adele (not practical) and the organic hay form the farm (yippee- cheap and plentiful). They would not eat pet shop stuff. Apaprently the West Willows is good as well but mine were not over fussed.

luvabun said:

Mine were fussy hay eaters but I've found they like the Oxbow Timothy (very expensive); hay from Adele (not practical) and the organic hay form the farm (yippee- cheap and plentiful). They would not eat pet shop stuff. Apaprently the West Willows is good as well but mine were not over fussed.

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Cheers - I know very little about good/bad hay. I'll look out for these.

Hiya Russ

How's our Abbi Bunster doing today then Matey :?:

bunnytales said:

Hiya Russ

How's our Abbi Bunster doing today then Matey :?:

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Kind of you to ask Much better - and that goes for Abbie, me and especially Giles who's got his girlfriend back

We got her home about half an hour ago. With it being Sunday and stuff we weren't able to talk to the vet (I think he was on a visit). The nurse said she had recovered amazingly quickly from the anaesthetic yesterday (no surgery, just an x-ray), and this morning Abbie had been full of beans (well, poos actually, judging by the shedload she apparently did this morning!) and her usual extremely nosy self! And had made a total mess of her little kennel (that's my girl :wink: :lol: ).

So she's totally better, which is good, but we're not really any closer to sussing out the problem.

So.....readigrass, hay and water it is until next weekend, and we'll see if the cycle continues.

One thought did occur to me....the vet don't stock the burgess excel food I use, and I didn't take any with me (spot the newbie :roll: :lol: ). I'll check this with them but presumably she's been fed on the pellets they have and given she's had no problems, would it be worthwhile swapping to whatever the pellets are that the vet uses, just in case it is her current pellets?

Yay! thats a clever girl then!!! - thats better news - sounds like your girls on the mend then Russ and the restricted diet sounds good to see if this breaks the circle of tummy probs.

Might be worth a call to the Vets re the pellets but it may also be that they have given a gut stimulator which could account for the abundance of poo - which again is good news that things are moving in the right direction so to speak.

There are loads of posts re pellets on here so might be worth doing a search on Burgess and seeing what comes up - I know lots of folks swopped over to Science Selective which has a good fibre content and there are others too - but might be worth a read to see if you feel worth changing over. You may already know but if you decide to change, take care to change over gradually once little Abbi returns to eating pelletts to give her tum chance to get used to them.

Best of luck and a snuggle for good girl Abbi - Keep us posted. :wink:

bunnytales said:

I know lots of folks swopped over to Science Selective which has a good fibre content and there are others too - but might be worth a read to see if you feel worth changing over.

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Cheers for the help! Funnily enough when we were in a week ago they gave (well, sold!) me a bag of selective science in case it was the pellets. I asked the vet if it was ok to just change their diet (knowing I'd read to do these things gradually) and he said it was. I wasn't as convinced, and plus it would mean Giles going through this too, so I haven't bothered trying them on SS yet.

Is it best to reintroduce their current pellets and then change over gradually at a later date, or take this opportunity to change straight away once we're ready to introduce pellets back? I'm guessing the former....?

I've heard of several people having problems on excel so it certainly wouldn't hurt to swap to something with higher fibre. Supreme science (which has a probiotic included) is my pick, the bunnies seem to love the taste.

If they haven't been eating any pellets then I would gradually introduce the SS rather than gradually reintroducing the burgess then the excel. The problem occures when you do a quick swap so building up from nothing is no worse than building up from something else. Usually I'd swap over a period of about 10days, so work out how much they'll have in the end (appox. 100g between them) then build up gradualy so 10g day 1, 20g day 2 etc. etc.

Tam

Hiya Russ - Sounds like a plan then matey!

Tams has given brill advice here (Tam's a Guru - Carn't you just tell em :wink: ) and its a good opportunity to gradually try the SS once they come of their Hay and Water diet which should give their tums time to clear and settle.

Hope Adele (one of the other many Guru's) wont mind me quoting her - but this is one of the first thing Adele taught me and something I know she adopts quite often when she has new bunns with tummy probs and thats pretty much what your doing with the lovely Abbi which is the just Hay and Water Feed.

Come on you little Abbi Bunster - Lets hope this all helps and gets her back up - binkying around and back enjoying the bunster life :wink: