Pepper at vets again :(

mikek said:

thank you.
not sure what to think. still minimal eating & poops. just when i think it's time to call the vet he nibbles a bit of food.
he seems fairly well 'in himself'.
i don't think he deteriorating at all, just not improving any more over the last 2 or 3 days. i think i will just monitor him closely today - unless anyone has any advice on the situation.

it's meds time now and i have a feeling this is going to be a problem. i've been doing the burrito on lap method but i think i might try the 'sitting on him' method this time. it's just his mouth is so teeny, looking from above it's hard to find the right place to put the syringe into his mouth. might see if i can burrito him with him on the sofa with me crouching down in front of him.

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Sending lots more vibes for Pepper. I always use the 'sitting on rabbit' method if they object with lap. It's easier to insert the syringe at the side of the mouth. There is a gap between the teeth there

Omi said:

Sending lots more vibes for Pepper. I always use the 'sitting on rabbit' method if they object with lap. It's easier to insert the syringe at the side of the mouth. There is a gap between the teeth there

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ok, thanks
i aim for the gap and have had good success with other rabbits but Pepper is small, super feisty & my eyesight isn't what it was!

Sorry mike I don’t have any ideas but clearly there is a trigger. Is there a pattern? Is it similar time each year?
One thing I would say is that you need to trust your gut feeling and whilst pepper isn’t presenting as getting worse, he’s also by the same token, not improving significantly. To me this would suggest something isn’t quite right. It’s been a week and perhaps another call to the vet to see if there’s any direction they can give you. Perhaps increased pain meds? Pepper may just be one of those slow recovery type bunnies but I think it might be an idea to have a vet chat and see if they can give him additional med support.
Sending more vibes for pepper and more hugs for you cause you are doing a fantastic job and it’s not easy trying to get meds into a determinedly resilient bunny.
Craig

If his output is still minimal I would give theVet a call. If he is only on Emeprid as a prokinetic I would suggest adding Cisapride too. They work in different ways on different parts of the GI tract. Is he drinking ? Fluids are really important and may need to be given subcutaneously or IV.

Re why he has these episodes at the same time each year, there are so many possibilities. For example is particularly sensitive to extremely cold weather ?

If its roughly the same time each year?

Could it be something that starts coming up in the garden at this time of year that he munches once and then learns his lesson for that year after he gets sick each time?

Or if they're both moulting at the same time and that triggers things?

I think you said the vet said there was just a large amount of normal food in his gut? Did they say where it was stuck?

Did they do an xray?

I would have thought he would be munching a bit better by now. Is he taking syringe food ok?



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Could it be to due to moulting Mike as its once or twice a year? We've found Archie really struggles with his main moults. He's much much floofier than Pip. I don't think he actually ingests that much, but I think the stress of losing that much fur and growing a new coat upsets his tummy. He's certainly grumpier.

We have found that when he starts to moult heavily he goes off his pellets and eats less hay. We start adding extra plantain to his diet, because its gentle on the tummy and seems to stop him getting gas and bloated.

I certainly know how feisty a nethie can be, good luck with getting the meds in.

If you offer his favourite treat is he excited?

InspectorMorse said:

If his output is still minimal I would give theVet a call. If he is only on Emeprid as a prokinetic I would suggest adding Cisapride too. They work in different ways on different parts of the GI tract. Is he drinking ? Fluids are really important and may need to be given subcutaneously or IV.

Re why he has these episodes at the same time each year, there are so many possibilities. For example is particularly sensitive to extremely cold weather ?

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i have to admit i stopped the Emeprid a couple of days ago. It is just so difficult to gets meds into him and i decided to prioritise the Loxicom & Baytril.
i've just done his loxicom & baytril using the sitting on method which was marginally more successful than yesterdays burrito attempt & did have empremid ready but he was struggling so much even under me & i was lucky not to get a severe bite - he was constantly trying to bite me and struggling like mad but luckily he was inside a towel. i will have an attempt at empremid in a couple of hours.

regarding timing of these episodes, i did think at first that it was always the same time of year as it happened mid-spring (iirc) 2019 & 2020 but then he had another bout august 2020. this year it is a lot earlier in the year than 2020 & 2019.
did think molting & did ask vet this time if it was fur but she said no.
also thought maybe some plant (perhaps like sheep if they eat too much clover) but i don't think this is the case either.
i would really like to find out what is going on as the vets have been 'extremely worried' each time - like high risk of not surviving.
this is the first op he has had, the previous 3 times it was just hospitalisation & intensive nursing for 2 or 3 days. thinking as it's a different vet every time, maybe he just had the op because this vet had a slightly different opinion on outcome without an operation. this time the vet said unlikely to survive without an op but prognosis reasonable with an op.

Mervinius said:

Could it be to due to moulting Mike as its once or twice a year? We've found Archie really struggles with his main moults. He's much much floofier than Pip. I don't think he actually ingests that much, but I think the stress of losing that much fur and growing a new coat upsets his tummy. He's certainly grumpier.

We have found that when he starts to moult heavily he goes off his pellets and eats less hay. We start adding extra plantain to his diet, because its gentle on the tummy and seems to stop him getting gas and bloated.

I certainly know how feisty a nethie can be, good luck with getting the meds in.

If you offer his favourite treat is he excited?

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he's never really had a favourite food.
in normal times with food he eats certain things & doesn't eat other things. his normal diet is approx 85% grass, 10% pellets, 5% veg that is offered. carrot is his 'favourite' veg but he has never got 'excited' over it.

gonna get some hay from somewhere, try & get them eating more of that.
not 100% sure it will help these episodes as this latest bout comes right on the back of him having hay from the secret santa box that Joey Mouse & Boo sent, but it can't hurt getting some.

You're welcome to have a box of our herby hay Timothy Hay to try them on? I know we're not far away and we have loads atm.

Would he eat anything off a spoon/bowl?

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thinking now it might be fur ingestion & the vet just didn't notice it, but i havenever seen any evidence of fur in his poops

CarelessSquid07 said:

You're welcome to have a box of our herby hay Timothy Hay to try them on? I know we're not far away and we have loads atm.

Would he eat anything off a spoon/bowl?

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no, he won't eat anything off a spoon but he has his evening pellets in a bowl.

thank you for the offer of some hay can i take you up on just a small amount? perhaps a small bag full just to give him short term & i'll order something online, perhaps the same as what you have if he eats it ok. of course i will pay for it.

i think the secret santa box contained hay from different suppliers and i had also got a sample from somewhere else (ca't remember the supplier rn). they ignored the box i'd got at first but the secret santa hay got tasted and they obviously preferred some bits more than others at first but then with increasing rapidity got eaten entirely. once that box was finished they did then eat the hay i'd bought.


.... actually, this is one of their favourite foods. i grew a fair bit last year in seed trays & luckily had 2 trays full (although quite sparse tray full) which i have given Pepper - there was about a handfull in each tray. he had some 3 days ago & some yesterday & eaten it all. unfortuanetly it grows VERY slowly this time of year but will sow some more today.

Would you be OK about giving injections ? Emeprid can be given by injection and in my unqualified opinion is more important than the Baytril at this stage. Once the intestines are exposed and touched during surgery getting gut motility going again can be the biggest challenge.

Personally I would definitely seek advice from the Vet today as if his output remains minimal he is at risk of going into full blown stasis again. Maybe the Vet could re- admit him, get him onto IV fluids and IV meds, plus supportive feeds for a couple of days. I would definitely ask about the Cisapride as IME it is a lot more useful than just Emeprid.

InspectorMorse said:

Would you be OK about giving injections ? Emeprid can be given by injection and in my unqualified opinion is more important than the Baytril at this stage. Once the intestines are exposed and touched during surgery getting gut motility going again can be the biggest challenge.

Personally I would definitely seek advice from the Vet today as if his output remains minimal he is at risk of going into full blown stasis again. Maybe the Vet could re- admit him, get him onto IV fluids and IV meds, plus supportive feeds for a couple of days. I would definitely ask about the Cisapride as IME it is a lot more useful than just Emeprid.

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thank you Jane, your advice is greatly appreciated.
will do my very best to give him his Emeprid this morning - it is sat in a syringe ready from earlier. if no success will ask the vet for a check-up & injection as soon as they are able - certainly today.

mikek said:

thank you Jane, your advice is greatly appreciated.
will do my very best to give him his Emeprid this morning - it is sat in a syringe ready from earlier. if no success will ask the vet for a check-up & injection as soon as they are able - certainly today.

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Dip the tip of the syringe in something sweet, both Baytril and Emeprid taste rank ( yes I have.....) so putting something sweet on the end of the syringe can help. I usually use a bit of fruit purée , but in an emergency a tiny bit of jam won’t do any harm as a one off.

Is there any chance that you corner the bun in small area and lift/wrap him on the counter? It would be much easier.

Your bun might just have anatomical "weird" bowel?

I have always found giving an injection so much easier and accurate than giving medication orally but only one of the vet surgeries I have been to have allowed me to do so - after teaching me. The others have looked horrified at the suggestion.

You are very, very lucky with your vet, Jane. I so wish I could find one like that. I build up a rapport with a decent bunny savvy vet and then they leave and their replacement doesn't know one end of a bunny from the other (I may be exaggerating a tad here). It has happened so many times over the years.

I empathise with you, Mike. I sometimes think that the smaller the animal the more difficult they are to medicate. I struggle much more with Mr Salted Caramel than I do with my bunnies. When they are small and wriggly it is almost impossible to hold them still and medicate them when you are on your own.

Thinking of you Mike and sending lots and lots of vibes for a successful resolution for Pepper xxx

Rhianna said:

I have always found giving an injection so much easier and accurate than giving medication orally but only one of the vet surgeries I have been to have allowed me to do so - after teaching me. The others have looked horrified at the suggestion.

You are very, very lucky with your vet, Jane. I so wish I could find one like that. I build up a rapport with a decent bunny savvy vet and then they leave and their replacement doesn't know one end of a bunny from the other (I may be exaggerating a tad here). It has happened so many times over the years.

I empathise with you, Mike. I sometimes think that the smaller the animal the more difficult they are to medicate. I struggle much more with Mr Salted Caramel than I do with my bunnies. When they are small and wriggly it is almost impossible to hold them still and medicate them when you are on your own.

Thinking of you Mike and sending lots and lots of vibes for a successful resolution for Pepper xxx

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This is interesting, both my vets have always been more than happy for me to give injections of all kinds of things at home, same with fluids, I think once they know you can do it happily, they'd rather just give you them most of the time.

Sending a million gives for Pepper, I think pain and gut meds are the most important here, and I'd definitely get the vet to administer them asap if he's being a monster about it. Really hope things improve soon xx

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mikek said:

he's never really had a favourite food.
in normal times with food he eats certain things & doesn't eat other things. his normal diet is approx 85% grass, 10% pellets, 5% veg that is offered. carrot is his 'favourite' veg but he has never got 'excited' over it.

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Archie is not fussed with veg either. But forage is a major hit here and we've found its the only thing that gets him eating again. Especially Ribwort Plantain. You might even have some growing in your garden its a common weed. Dandelion is also an appetite stimulate. (Hay experts are his favourite)

I find Archie will get literally 2 or 3 poop necklaces and the rest of his poops are perfectly normal so easy to miss. He also doesn't get smaller poops like most buns, when he has a gut slow down. His poops just decrease in quantity, but again very gradually so easy to miss.

If you can't get the meds into him, definitely take him to the vet though. It will be much easy for them and they can give him check over.

Sending happy munching and popping vibes.

Sending vibes for Pepper. X

InspectorMorse said:

Dip the tip of the syringe in something sweet, both Baytril and Emeprid taste rank ( yes I have.....) so putting something sweet on the end of the syringe can help. I usually use a bit of fruit purée , but in an emergency a tiny bit of jam won’t do any harm as a one off.

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great idea. will try this