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Meadow grass nuts

D

dollyanna

Alpha Buck
Does anybody feed grass nuts to their rabbits? I get Thunderbrooks meadow nuts for the ponies and gave a few to the rabbits to try, especially as Odin seems to prefer his hay in compressed blocks, though he does also eat fresh grass every day. They weren't interested yesterday but by today he seemed to be enjoying them a lot.
Thought they could be a good option for those who struggle with non-hay eaters, or for those with storage issues and house bunnies as they could be kept in a bin like dog food much more cleanly than hay is. I'm going to try them with hay cobs next time I get some.
I tried them with the herbal treats too but they seem a bit big and hard, Freja had a go but has given up now :lol:
 
I actually had a discussion with somebody about this recently! their rabbit isn't a great hay eater, so they asked about using these pellets. only issue is is that due to the pelleted form they do not encourage grinding of the teeth from my understanding, as its more of a chewing action? I believe they can be a very healthy treat, but I'd worry about them filling up too much on pellets & therefore not eating enough hay/grass :) but with them just being compressed hay, its an excellent source of fibre and would be a healthy treat with minimal concern of weight gain as well.. its just hay haha
 
binkyCodie said:
I actually had a discussion with somebody about this recently! their rabbit isn't a great hay eater, so they asked about using these pellets. only issue is is that due to the pelleted form they do not encourage grinding of the teeth from my understanding, as its more of a chewing action? I believe they can be a very healthy treat, but I'd worry about them filling up too much on pellets & therefore not eating enough hay/grass :) but with them just being compressed hay, its an excellent source of fibre and would be a healthy treat with minimal concern of weight gain as well.. its just hay haha
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I agree with this:thumb:
 
I'm not sure how it would affect tooth grinding, they still have to chew it and it has the same type and amount of long fibre content because it's just grass, unlike complete pellets.
He does seem to like them, I'm not giving free range on them just yet but they get a small handful each day because then at least I know his gut is getting the fibre to supplement the other things he eats. I'd like to use them in their food toys, they'd work well for that.
 
dollyanna said:
I'm not sure how it would affect tooth grinding, they still have to chew it and it has the same type and amount of long fibre content because it's just grass, unlike complete pellets.
He does seem to like them, I'm not giving free range on them just yet but they get a small handful each day because then at least I know his gut is getting the fibre to supplement the other things he eats. I'd like to use them in their food toys, they'd work well for that.
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I meant those teeth at the back ^^

the only way for those to remain in good shape is via eating hay, as hay/grass requires a side to side motion. this consequently helps grind down those back teeth against the hay (and possibly other teeth?) so that they do not become overgrown (those back teeth are always growing!). without a high hay/grass diet, the teeth develop spurs & then require a dental for them to be filed down.

other foods, pellet, veggies, fruit etc instead use a chewing motion, which would be up and down. consequently those back teeth aren't used on these foods very much, and do not contribute to teeth health. hence why hay/grass is so important, as nothing else will help those back teeth.

the issue isn't what is in the pellet (it being pure hay is excellent, it nutritionally it is not any different to eating actual hay), but how its eaten & the effect on dental health :) I haven't used horse hay pellet so I may be mistaken. but as its compressed down into a pellet form, I would be concerned that it wouldn't grind down those back teeth, and would be eaten more like their actual pellet which is up & down. strands of hay/grass are really the only things to grind down those back teeth. I've personally noticed on the compressed hay cookies, my buns seem to eat more of up & down vs side to side as its very tiny pieces of compressed hay, so I also doubt how good it is for their dental health overall haha

horse hay pellets are safe to give, but I would genuinely say as a treat (and a very healthy one at that). but not as a main portion of the diet, or to replace hay/grass. & then even despite it being a healthy treat, you should limit intake; I say this because if they're filling up on hay pellets, but not actual strands of hay, that could impact dental health too. as hay pellet will be the same as filling up on hay..just without the dental care ^^
 
binkyCodie said:
I meant those teeth at the back ^^

the only way for those to remain in good shape is via eating hay, as hay/grass requires a side to side motion. this consequently helps grind down those back teeth against the hay (and possibly other teeth?) so that they do not become overgrown (those back teeth are always growing!). without a high hay/grass diet, the teeth develop spurs & then require a dental for them to be filed down.

other foods, pellet, veggies, fruit etc instead use a chewing motion, which would be up and down. consequently those back teeth aren't used on these foods very much, and do not contribute to teeth health. hence why hay/grass is so important, as nothing else will help those back teeth.

the issue isn't what is in the pellet (it being pure hay is excellent, it nutritionally it is not any different to eating actual hay), but how its eaten & the effect on dental health :) I haven't used horse hay pellet so I may be mistaken. but as its compressed down into a pellet form, I would be concerned that it wouldn't grind down those back teeth, and would be eaten more like their actual pellet which is up & down. strands of hay/grass are really the only things to grind down those back teeth. I've personally noticed on the compressed hay cookies, my buns seem to eat more of up & down vs side to side as its very tiny pieces of compressed hay, so I also doubt how good it is for their dental health overall haha

horse hay pellets are safe to give, but I would genuinely say as a treat (and a very healthy one at that). but not as a main portion of the diet, or to replace hay/grass. & then even despite it being a healthy treat, you should limit intake; I say this because if they're filling up on hay pellets, but not actual strands of hay, that could impact dental health too. as hay pellet will be the same as filling up on hay..just without the dental care ^^
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I agree with this :thumb::thumb:
 
I'm trying to find some research on this, the different ways they eat and what triggers it - especially given that wood and bark etc is often suggested to keep teeth down but that isn't chewed by the back teeth either.Not being very successful.
Watching mine they still have to grind the compressed hay quite a lot, it takes them just as long if not longer to chew it than normal hay. I'll keep watching and see how different foods are chewed.
I don't know if rabbits are the same or different (but would love to read more if you can point me in the right direction at all), but there's a lot of research that shows that equines actually chew more when given short chop fibre as opposed to long chop ie chaff and hay pellets vs standard hay. So much seems to be so incredibly similar between these two species, I wonder if teeth are too. Most modern horses have front teeth that are far too long because they don't eat enough rough/coarse fibres, which then causes issues at the back.
 
dollyanna said:
I'm trying to find some research on this, the different ways they eat and what triggers it - especially given that wood and bark etc is often suggested to keep teeth down but that isn't chewed by the back teeth either.Not being very successful.
Watching mine they still have to grind the compressed hay quite a lot, it takes them just as long if not longer to chew it than normal hay. I'll keep watching and see how different foods are chewed.
I don't know if rabbits are the same or different (but would love to read more if you can point me in the right direction at all), but there's a lot of research that shows that equines actually chew more when given short chop fibre as opposed to long chop ie chaff and hay pellets vs standard hay. So much seems to be so incredibly similar between these two species, I wonder if teeth are too. Most modern horses have front teeth that are far too long because they don't eat enough rough/coarse fibres, which then causes issues at the back.
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https://www.researchgate.net/public..._development_of_dental_disease_in_pet_rabbits

On the other hand.....

https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/108529/1/20142121.pdf


Gotta love Rabbit Veterinary Medicine......
 
dollyanna said:
I'm trying to find some research on this, the different ways they eat and what triggers it - especially given that wood and bark etc is often suggested to keep teeth down but that isn't chewed by the back teeth either.Not being very successful.
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while I can't say for 100% with this, I question if these sources are referring to the incisors, or the molars. wood, bark, would help wear down the incisors when chewed, but this would have little impact on those back teeth I would imagine, as they would be using the incisors to strip the bark into pieces. if they do eat the bark (some do), I would imagine it would be more of an up/down motion vs side to side like hay. I could be wrong however, its just my "theory"

finding direct information can be hard. I (personally) believe a lot of sources refer to the incisors when referring to chew toys (wood toys, willow balls, bark, tree branches etc) for those front incisors rather than the back molars ^^ but many do not specify. but going off of knowledge we currently know about rabbits, it would seem only hay grinds down those back teeth, & nothing else. hence why (usually) if a rabbit does not eat hay well enough, spurs develop. no amount of chew toys will help the back teeth.

but rabbits are not very well studied. pelleted forms of hay *may* be just fine. however I would have concerns (as its difficult to find evidence) about them eating it in place of hay, due to those back teeth ^^
 
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My gut feeling is length of time needed to chew: short-stem stuff like that in pellets and hay cookies can be swallowed much quicker than even inch-long stuff. Like eating spaghetti v vermicelli (but then I chew yoghurt ;P). Wood, bark etc. isn't very good at all, it doesn't contain the grinding silicates in grasses, and is only really suitable as part of a 'chew-balanced' diet IMO.
 
keletkezes said:
My gut feeling is length of time needed to chew: short-stem stuff like that in pellets and hay cookies can be swallowed much quicker than even inch-long stuff. Like eating spaghetti v vermicelli (but then I chew yoghurt ;P). Wood, bark etc. isn't very good at all, it doesn't contain the grinding silicates in grasses, and is only really suitable as part of a 'chew-balanced' diet IMO.
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This would make sense - except that research has shown the opposite in equines, they chew short fibre longer than they chew long fibre. You would think that horses would need to chew less than rabbits, with bigger mouths and throat, so it makes me wonder if the same applies to rabbits.

That second link from InspectorMorse is really interesting, and could answer one question of how do they balance the growth with the diet given different abrasiveness. It would make sense that teeth respond to the stress/wear placed on them, otherwise rabbits have a lifetime of a very careful balancing act which would be tough in lean times. Horses hooves are the same - they grow in response to work, as long as there is a reasonably gradual change.
 
dollyanna said:
This would make sense - except that research has shown the opposite in equines, they chew short fibre longer than they chew long fibre. You would think that horses would need to chew less than rabbits, with bigger mouths and throat, so it makes me wonder if the same applies to rabbits.

That second link from InspectorMorse is really interesting, and could answer one question of how do they balance the growth with the diet given different abrasiveness. It would make sense that teeth respond to the stress/wear placed on them, otherwise rabbits have a lifetime of a very careful balancing act which would be tough in lean times. Horses hooves are the same - they grow in response to work, as long as there is a reasonably gradual change.
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But from the POV of a wild Rabbit that ‘lifetime’ will only be a couple of years. So many problems seen in Pet Rabbits just won’t effect Wild Rabbits because Wildies simply don’t live long enough to acquire them and congenital Dental problems will be halted by natural selection.

This brings me on to the thorny topic of the Domestication of Rabbits .....should it have ever happened ?

My answer is ‘no’
 
InspectorMorse said:
But from the POV of a wild Rabbit that ‘lifetime’ will only be a couple of years. So many problems seen in Pet Rabbits just won’t effect Wild Rabbits because Wildies simply don’t live long enough to acquire them and congenital Dental problems will be halted by natural selection.

This brings me on to the thorny topic of the Domestication of Rabbits .....should it have ever happened ?

My answer is ‘no’
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Yes, and we also need to take into account the facial features of some of the domesticated breeds too, that will have an effect.
The domestication of any animal is an interesting subject, and I'd agree - on the whole I don't really think we have improved anything!! Particularly sticky one for me as my first rabbits are giants, I absolutely adore them, but I am not happy about the health issues involved in breeding them :-/ Odin was a rescue, I'm not sure we'd have ever have got them otherwise.

Thank you for an interesting discussion - I am now attempting to analyse the chewing styles of my rabbits with different foods!! I have noticed that even with things like swede, they bite it off with incisors but then there is still a fair amount of circular chewing motion between bites. I'm going to try and capture slow mo videos of chewing different foods over the next few months, and try and time chewing time for hay vs chop vs pellets too, weight for weight, just to see if I can gather a little more info for my own interest.
 
Just to throw in to the mix as I don't think its been mentioned (sorry if I missed it) but rabbts also wear their own teeth down by grinding the cheek teeth together. Spurs are not an inevitable outcome if a bunny has no access to hay or grass- though I do concede they are much more likely
 
Slightly off-subject, but it always surprises me just how thoroughly bunnies chew their food. Humans will sometimes chew more quickly and even swallow food, which is not properly chewed. Bunnies seem not to, even when they can see more of the food to eat.
 
joey&boo said:
Just to throw in to the mix as I don't think its been mentioned (sorry if I missed it) but rabbts also wear their own teeth down by grinding the cheek teeth together. Spurs are not an inevitable outcome if a bunny has no access to hay or grass- though I do concede they are much more likely
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Yes I'd read this - and seen it a little in action. Makes you wonder what else is in play that leads to so many dental issues in pet rabbits then...
 
Omi said:
Slightly off-subject, but it always surprises me just how thoroughly bunnies chew their food. Humans will sometimes chew more quickly and even swallow food, which is not properly chewed. Bunnies seem not to, even when they can see more of the food to eat.
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Yes! I was watching them eat lettuce yesterday. Even that they would spend several seconds chewing thoroughly before swallowing.
 
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