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Would you give up?

Sammy&Patch

Warren Scout
Earlier in the year I was on here getting advise about bonding Hazel and Shadow, they are a very difficult bond. We have been trying for a long time and Shadow was only getting to stay if they could be bonded (the rescue said they would have him back if it didn't work out). But we have of course fallen in love with him so he can't leave us now! They are getting on very well now (seperately) in the house, they each have a room and the hallway is divided so they each get a bit, with baby pens set up around to divide them, there is about 70cm where they can get to each other through the bars 24/7 (their heads fit right through but no further). I put their food between them and they eat happily together. This took a little while to get them to be ok but they are. They both like lying on these round circular beds so I have put them in this space so they are near each other a lot when napping. I also open one gate at a time which allows one of them to run up and down the stairs if they want and they can then get to each other about 3 metres where they can put their heads through to each other all the way along. This also took a while but they are settled with that now. Shadow often puts his head right through and Hazel will put her head down but neither will lick each other, it's liek a stand off. Then Hazel will sometimes nip him as if she is telling him to groom her, and then put her head down again, he will jump back and then put his head through the same. I don't think either of them will give in. I tried the banana trick and hazel did lick shadows head for ages that one time, he was completely soaked on his head! They both love cuddles and if I stroke them while their heads are together they will sit for ages, crunching away chatting to each other. So now lockdown has eased we decided to try bonding again (now we can go to the vet if we needed!). But it hasn't gone well. We did neutral terrotory, small space. Neither had been in before. They ignored each other to start, went past each other a few times with a bit of a sniff then ignoring. but hazel decided to pee in one corner. The next day they did some circling so I pulled them apart and ended it. The next day we tried outdoors instead in a small space again. They were ok sort of, did some grass munching, hazel did loads of poos and a wee. But then they sniffed each other and went into a bit of a whirlwind. we pulled apart and stroked them a bit then did some smooching before ending. The next day almost straight away they got like this, they kind of jumped over each other, shadow had his tail down, then they ended up in a circling whirlwind again. We did the same, seperated them a bit then tried stroking etc. We gave them some dandelion leaves that they normally will share through the bars but hazel bit at shadow and he jumped back. We stroked again , they did their own thing then let them together a bit again, they got into another wild circle where neither of them would stop. I just don't think either of them is ever going to let the other be the boss and give in, they are both very strong willed and not a good match for bonding, I was suprised with all the progress we had made that they still want to attack/fight each other so badly. They are maybe both trying to get on top of each other or something but it doesn't get that far, they just go round and round and fur flies. I was hoping after all this time they would be calmer together. I am considering stopping trying to get them together and just allow them to live as they are, side by side but so they have contact with each other through the bars and just stroke them together daily to give them that time properly together. When they are being stroked together they are perfectly happy being next to each other, snuggled up. Sometimes if Hazel looks like she will nip shadow through the bars, just saying her name and talkikng to her from a distance calms her and she doesn't nip him. I think it's either demanding he lick her or it's a warning as sometimes he comes on a bit strong through the bars, like pushing his head further and further into her. She doesn't mind all the time, just sometimes. I really wanted it to work but I don't want to unnecessarily keep stressing them if it's unlikely to work out and they seem quite happy how they are.
 
Are you trying to bond in a small neutral area? Behaviour during bonding can be very different to when they are separated by a barrier. Also, it can be better to stick with things if they are going well and not keep separating them, rather than daily bonding sessions where you have to start over again each day.
 
Are you trying to bond in a small neutral area? Behaviour during bonding can be very different to when they are separated by a barrier. Also, it can be better to stick with things if they are going well and not keep separating them, rather than daily bonding sessions where you have to start over again each day.

Hi, yes it's a small hallway that neither of them have been in before and we block it off to about 1 meter x 1 meter. When we did it outdoors it was also a neutral bit of the garden about the same size. We are doing the indoor area when it's raining. Yesterday evening we tried another session and Hazel was being very nippy at Shadow again, they both got a bit aggressive, boxed each other a bit but instead of fighting in a circle, Shadow jumped away and kept backing off and even hiding a bit. That is very unlike him, usually he gives back and they end up in the circle fighting. Luckily when he jumped away from her she didn't carry on after him she left him, so maybe he is going to finally give in and let her be in charge but he certainly wasn't a happy bunny! I will see how it goes again today. The trouble is, it is never going well for more than a minute or 2 unless we are constantly stroking them both, then they sit happily together. But I don't knwo whether that is prolonging things as it isn't letting them sort things out themselves.
 
I agree with Zoobec that the disadvantage of the slow bond method is that every time you put them back together they have to start from scratch in establishing their hierarchy. That's probably why they're at a stalemate.

I don't know if you feel comfortable about doing this, but if I were in your position I would try and keep them together permanently in the neutral area for 24 hours to start off with. If would mean that you would need to be there constantly watching them like a hawk and be ready to intervene if they start circling again. Hopefully they will have enough time to start to sort themselves out and break the impasse. If you start to see an improvement, then keep them together and, once they've settled down, start to slowly expand their space.

If there's no improvement at all after 48 hours then I personally wouldn't carry on trying to bond them.

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I agree with Zoobec that the disadvantage of the slow bond method is that every time you put them back together they have to start from scratch in establishing their hierarchy. That's probably why they're at a stalemate.

I don't know if you feel comfortable about doing this, but if I were in your position I would try and keep them together permanently in the neutral area for 24 hours to start off with. If would mean that you would need to be there constantly watching them like a hawk and be ready to intervene if they start circling again. Hopefully they will have enough time to start to sort themselves out and break the impasse. If you start to see an improvement, then keep them together and, once they've settled down, start to slowly expand their space.

If there's no improvement at all after 48 hours then I personally wouldn't carry on trying to bond them.

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Thanks, I am nervous to try that but I've tried so much I might as well give it a go! I won't have time to be watching them full on this week so I will maybe go for next monday/tuesday. Fingers crossed!
 
I agree with Zoobec that the disadvantage of the slow bond method is that every time you put them back together they have to start from scratch in establishing their hierarchy. That's probably why they're at a stalemate.

I don't know if you feel comfortable about doing this, but if I were in your position I would try and keep them together permanently in the neutral area for 24 hours to start off with. If would mean that you would need to be there constantly watching them like a hawk and be ready to intervene if they start circling again. Hopefully they will have enough time to start to sort themselves out and break the impasse. If you start to see an improvement, then keep them together and, once they've settled down, start to slowly expand their space.

If there's no improvement at all after 48 hours then I personally wouldn't carry on trying to bond them.

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I agree with this :thumb:
 
Thanks, I am nervous to try that but I've tried so much I might as well give it a go! I won't have time to be watching them full on this week so I will maybe go for next monday/tuesday. Fingers crossed!

Fingers crossed for you:thumb:
 
If its any help to give you hope I took 3.5months to bond my two. That was with the constantly together in a small space (dog cage). I had next to no sleep and was with them the entire time.

They've now got a lovely bond although I have had issues in the past and needed to do a small rebonding session.

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Also sending lots of good luck and thinking of you vibes. I think if you give up without trying it this way, you'll always wonder.
 
Thanks for the good luck vibes everyone. I started today about an hour ago. At first was ok, a bit of sniffing each other and then ignoring, a bit wary of each other at times but ok. But shadow jumped out of the litter tray at hazel which started a bit of a fight! Luckily it was quite easy to stop but he then decided to lie in the litter tray and not want to come out or let her in, so I have taken the litter tray out and put litter on a flat tray instead which seems to be better so far!
 
Thanks for the good luck vibes everyone. I started today about an hour ago. At first was ok, a bit of sniffing each other and then ignoring, a bit wary of each other at times but ok. But shadow jumped out of the litter tray at hazel which started a bit of a fight! Luckily it was quite easy to stop but he then decided to lie in the litter tray and not want to come out or let her in, so I have taken the litter tray out and put litter on a flat tray instead which seems to be better so far!

that sounds ok. These do get possessive over litter trays. Its good to be able to adapt as you go. Lots more vibes
 
that sounds ok. These do get possessive over litter trays. Its good to be able to adapt as you go. Lots more vibes

I had this when I bonded Frosty and Fern. Who would have thought a plastic tray could be claimed as territory! Sending lots of vibes:thumb:
 
Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement, I'm just about to get my sleeping bag and try to get some sleep with these bunnies! They have been pretty good, a few times i had to intervene but it didn't take much to stop them. They have been lying next to each other a bit, unfortunately Shadow keeps spoilng it, Hazel through herself over on her side at one point and he decided to sniffat her tummy so she jumped back up. Lots of times when she relaxes he seems to pester her, particularly sniffing her bum, she has been pretty tolerant. Another time i think she was trying to clean his ear but he kept jumping back (probably because she nips at him quite often) and in the end she gave up. But definitley lots of positive signs and I have been pretty relaxed sitting near them doing a jigsaw all day without too much worry. They will be getting fed up in such a small space at the moment as they normally have lots more space but hopefully it will be worth it in the end!
 
Sounds like it’s going well overall. It does take time for them to learn to trust one another. I hope you get some sleep. I found a dustpan handy to slide between them when they scuffled.
 
So the night went well :) I hardly heard them apart from a bit of munching and chewing noises, no fights. When I woke up they were sleeping away from each other but a little later shadow moved next to her. They are just starting to get up and about more, poor Hazel was attempting to clean shadows ear again but he keeps jumping away again. He's obviously nervy because she often nips at his face but she is just trying to clean him now. She seems obsessed to try to clean one of his ears, the one that is floppy, he has one up one down ear. He has a bit of a lionhead going on too so I'm not sure if she is pulling too hard at his longer fur when she tries to clean it. I'm planning on sleeping with them again tonight and hopefully after that I can get to my bed! Am I supposed to keep the same amount of space today too then gradually increase over the next week or so?
 
So the night went well :) I hardly heard them apart from a bit of munching and chewing noises, no fights. When I woke up they were sleeping away from each other but a little later shadow moved next to her. They are just starting to get up and about more, poor Hazel was attempting to clean shadows ear again but he keeps jumping away again. He's obviously nervy because she often nips at his face but she is just trying to clean him now. She seems obsessed to try to clean one of his ears, the one that is floppy, he has one up one down ear. He has a bit of a lionhead going on too so I'm not sure if she is pulling too hard at his longer fur when she tries to clean it. I'm planning on sleeping with them again tonight and hopefully after that I can get to my bed! Am I supposed to keep the same amount of space today too then gradually increase over the next week or so?

I would certainly keep the same space today and then I would assess how they are before saying definitely increase the space after that. It's not worth risking anything with these two by trying to change things too quickly.

It does sound as though it's going very well. I would guess that Hazel is being a bit over-excitable and causing Shadow to become nervous of her intentions. I think they'll both learn. He'll learn that she means well and she'll learn to be a bit more gentle with him.

Sending lots more vibes for you all.
 
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