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Advice on elderly Rabbit - stressed or maybe in pain?!

cc208

New Kit
Hi, I am new here but really wanted some general advice or thoughts from Rabbit Savvy people about my girl. Apologies if this is a long post, there's a fair bit going on with her!

Bit of a back story -

I've had Elsa since she was 8 weeks old, she will be turning 10 this year. At the end of March, her bond partner of nearly 10 years, Loki, passed away. It was old age, likely a heart attack - I was with him and it looked like that. I went through the steps of letting Elsa mourn with the body etc. She seemed very perky for the following week or so and was binkying around like I hadn't seen her do for years, assuming her relief at not having a sick old man with her! After a while though she started to calm down a bit, although until last week she was still waking me up every morning at about 5am by jumping on the bed and binkying, and coming for a long fuss.

Last week, she stopped eating and I could see she was quickly going down hill. I keep renetidine, emeprid syrup and Meloxaid in the fridge so was able to start on them very quickly, as well as straight onto the critical care. As it was the evening, the vet was shut but I was speaking with the emergency vet. She had a bad night and I thought she may go that night, but was still ok by morning and I got her straight to my vet. They gave her fluids and topped me up with the same meds. They checked her ears and teeth - shes always had small spurs on her teeth that come and go, but they haven't done a dental due to her age and the anesthetic. The vet couldn't see past her front teeth as her tongue was in the way (she has a big tongue!).

When we got home, she started to perk up (as a trip to the vet often does) ate a bit and we started having poops. I was told to continue the meds etc. After a few days, I noticed she had become more and more withdrawn and wouldn't come near me - I was the evil lady who was syringing horrid meds into her mouth 7 times a day! She was very quiet and to me seemed very stressed, and was also starting to have diarrhea from the meds. I decided to take a risk and stop the meds as I felt they were causing her real stress. She perked up after 24 hours and was playing again so I really feel the meds were doing more harm than good after they initially did their job and she is now eating and drinking fine, and pooping like a trooper.

Now my actual issue (sorry)!

I am finding it very difficult to read her. She still won't come near me in the day time, storms off and won't let me touch her. I feel the trust has been broken. That must be so lonely for her if her only company turned against her and was giving her meds. In the evenings she is more accepting of me but not like she used to be. I can hear teeth grinding. With how loud this is, I am sure it isn't the good kind of grinding - but I do not know if this is pain (less likely) or stress (more likely) or loneliness / depression from losing Loki (delayed response?). She hasn't flopped properly since he died so I don't think she feels entirely safe. When she sleeps, she usually sits in a ball (not hunched) and at most lies stretched out but not completely flat, and often she jerks awake or looks uneasy if I am moving around (probably thinking I am going to come at her with a syringe). She still has conjunctivitis so I am giving her eye drops once a day which doesn't help the trust as she hates them too, and her nose is a bit wet at the moment (teeth or stress?!).

I guess I just want to hear from people who have been through something similar, advice on easing the stress or just that people get that I am not going mad and something is bothering her! My vet is lovely but not very rabbit savvy and sees her as a flow chart - doesn't register the emotional stress and if she is eating and drinking, then she is fine. I don't have the option of getting her a new partner - I don't think she would accept one at her age anyway. There's not a lot the vet can do at her age. Lovely people - what would you do / think of this? Sorry for the excessive post but there is a lot going on with her!
 
Hi, I am new here but really wanted some general advice or thoughts from Rabbit Savvy people about my girl. Apologies if this is a long post, there's a fair bit going on with her!

Bit of a back story -

I've had Elsa since she was 8 weeks old, she will be turning 10 this year. At the end of March, her bond partner of nearly 10 years, Loki, passed away. It was old age, likely a heart attack - I was with him and it looked like that. I went through the steps of letting Elsa mourn with the body etc. She seemed very perky for the following week or so and was binkying around like I hadn't seen her do for years, assuming her relief at not having a sick old man with her! After a while though she started to calm down a bit, although until last week she was still waking me up every morning at about 5am by jumping on the bed and binkying, and coming for a long fuss.

Last week, she stopped eating and I could see she was quickly going down hill. I keep renetidine, emeprid syrup and Meloxaid in the fridge so was able to start on them very quickly, as well as straight onto the critical care. As it was the evening, the vet was shut but I was speaking with the emergency vet. She had a bad night and I thought she may go that night, but was still ok by morning and I got her straight to my vet. They gave her fluids and topped me up with the same meds. They checked her ears and teeth - shes always had small spurs on her teeth that come and go, but they haven't done a dental due to her age and the anesthetic. The vet couldn't see past her front teeth as her tongue was in the way (she has a big tongue!).

When we got home, she started to perk up (as a trip to the vet often does) ate a bit and we started having poops. I was told to continue the meds etc. After a few days, I noticed she had become more and more withdrawn and wouldn't come near me - I was the evil lady who was syringing horrid meds into her mouth 7 times a day! She was very quiet and to me seemed very stressed, and was also starting to have diarrhea from the meds. I decided to take a risk and stop the meds as I felt they were causing her real stress. She perked up after 24 hours and was playing again so I really feel the meds were doing more harm than good after they initially did their job and she is now eating and drinking fine, and pooping like a trooper.

Now my actual issue (sorry)!

I am finding it very difficult to read her. She still won't come near me in the day time, storms off and won't let me touch her. I feel the trust has been broken. That must be so lonely for her if her only company turned against her and was giving her meds. In the evenings she is more accepting of me but not like she used to be. I can hear teeth grinding. With how loud this is, I am sure it isn't the good kind of grinding - but I do not know if this is pain (less likely) or stress (more likely) or loneliness / depression from losing Loki (delayed response?). She hasn't flopped properly since he died so I don't think she feels entirely safe. When she sleeps, she usually sits in a ball (not hunched) and at most lies stretched out but not completely flat, and often she jerks awake or looks uneasy if I am moving around (probably thinking I am going to come at her with a syringe). She still has conjunctivitis so I am giving her eye drops once a day which doesn't help the trust as she hates them too, and her nose is a bit wet at the moment (teeth or stress?!).

I guess I just want to hear from people who have been through something similar, advice on easing the stress or just that people get that I am not going mad and something is bothering her! My vet is lovely but not very rabbit savvy and sees her as a flow chart - doesn't register the emotional stress and if she is eating and drinking, then she is fine. I don't have the option of getting her a new partner - I don't think she would accept one at her age anyway. There's not a lot the vet can do at her age. Lovely people - what would you do / think of this? Sorry for the excessive post but there is a lot going on with her!

Firstly welcome to the forum and secondly I'm sorry that you have both lost Loki.

Is Elsa now eating and drinking OK and are her poops normal looking?

I must admit that whenever I have experienced stress in any of my bunnies, usually after a vet visit, it has not lasted for more than an hour at most, so I am perhaps a little hesitant to think that Elsa's problems are due to stress. I think also the teeth grinding is usually a sign of pain, plus the wet nose would, as you've suggested, indicate a tooth problem.

I can understand not wanting to give her a GA and a dental. I think perhaps I would give her a short while on some pain relief, e.g. Metacam, to see if that perks her up.
 
Thank you for your quick reply!

She was on the pain relief for a week or so and was worse when on it plus the gut stimulants, she only picked at her food and was struggling with toileting. It was after I decided to stop the meds that she perked up and began eating again.

But she is still very down - I wondered if the stress was the change of environment without Loki, loneliness setting in and her not trusting me at the moment, rather than because of the trip to the vet which she always bounces back from.

But yes I am still considering her teeth, as the vet couldn't see the back ones. She is eating a ridiculous amount at the moment in the evenings when she does not stop asking for it and that is when she decides she likes me for a bit. Not so much eating during the day but this isn't terribly unusual for her. Her poops were irregular shaped / very soft when she was on the meds, but since I took her off the 2 gut stimulants and the pain killers, they are back to normal, if maybe a bit smaller than her usual hefty sized boulders. She's never had any problems with these meds before but also she was on them for much longer this time, so I wasn't surprise by the soft stools / mild diarrhea.
 
Hello

I am sorry to hear of Loki's passing :cry:

Did the Vet suggest running a blood profile to check her kidney and liver function ?

Also, re the conjunctivitis, did the Vet check for any corneal ulceration- IE by using a Fluorescein eye stain ?

As you have mentioned, her molar teeth may be causing some discomfort. But if she is now eating more normally this seems less likely


Arthritic pain is another possibility. This can fluctuate in severity from day to day, or even be worse at certain times of the day.

Is her wee output normal ? Not very dilute or any sign of incontinence ?

Sorry for all the questions !! Final one, is she maintaining her weight ?
 
Thank you and no worries for the questions, they are things I haven't thought of!

Did the Vet suggest running a blood profile to check her kidney and liver function ?
No this wasn't mentioned at all. With the lockdown, the appointment was very much her taking Elsa in from the carpark whilst I waited in the car (horrible) and then her popping out to update me. I think I said she isn't very rabbit savvy (told me rabbits couldn't get cataracts when Loki clearly had them, and then admitted they were cataracts after she checked!), but the nurse definitely is rabbit savvy.

Also, re the conjunctivitis, did the Vet check for any corneal ulceration- IE by using a Fluorescein eye stain ?
I don't believe she did, both eyes are a bit gunky but she has always had that, and Loki used to clean them so I have been doing that for her, and noticed one appeared worst. She has had 2 days of drops and they are already looking clearer.

I have wondered about Arthritis, it's not one I am familiar with in terms of the signs though if you can guide me with what to look out for?

Is her wee output normal ? Not very dilute or any sign of incontinence ?
She's weeing fine. When she first became ill last week, that evening she did not stop drinking and was struggling to pass anything, but since she started eating and drinking normally, it's been back to normal and her usual colour.

Is she maintaining her weight ?
She's a good weight and has actually put on a bit since Loki died, but that doesn't surprise me either as less competition for food and although I should have halved the amount of food after he died, I am probably giving more than that. She eats a lot slower and goes back to it rather than gobbling but it always gets finished.

We just had a little fuss on the floor, but she was tense the whole time and edging away from me then back, eyes were pretty wide open etc. - its like she wants the fuss but doesn't want me near her and is warring with herself! She was always a massive cuddler on the floor so this is the weirdest behaviour and obviously its the upsetting bit for me knowing she hates me! She is still grinding her teeth (sounds like she has a crunchy treat in her mouth that she keeps munching on from time to time) but then she goes and eats a pile of Timothy Hay or attacks her hay cookie. Ive tried her on hard hay sticks and she crunches them without too much difficulty, although she's definitely gone off them a bit since last week. She used to snatch them and run away, finishing them in minutes. Maybe they're too hard for her teeth?
 
Thank you and no worries for the questions, they are things I haven't thought of!

Did the Vet suggest running a blood profile to check her kidney and liver function ?
No this wasn't mentioned at all. With the lockdown, the appointment was very much her taking Elsa in from the carpark whilst I waited in the car (horrible) and then her popping out to update me. I think I said she isn't very rabbit savvy (told me rabbits couldn't get cataracts when Loki clearly had them, and then admitted they were cataracts after she checked!), but the nurse definitely is rabbit savvy.

Also, re the conjunctivitis, did the Vet check for any corneal ulceration- IE by using a Fluorescein eye stain ?
I don't believe she did, both eyes are a bit gunky but she has always had that, and Loki used to clean them so I have been doing that for her, and noticed one appeared worst. She has had 2 days of drops and they are already looking clearer.

I have wondered about Arthritis, it's not one I am familiar with in terms of the signs though if you can guide me with what to look out for?

Is her wee output normal ? Not very dilute or any sign of incontinence ?
She's weeing fine. When she first became ill last week, that evening she did not stop drinking and was struggling to pass anything, but since she started eating and drinking normally, it's been back to normal and her usual colour.

Is she maintaining her weight ?
She's a good weight and has actually put on a bit since Loki died, but that doesn't surprise me either as less competition for food and although I should have halved the amount of food after he died, I am probably giving more than that. She eats a lot slower and goes back to it rather than gobbling but it always gets finished.

We just had a little fuss on the floor, but she was tense the whole time and edging away from me then back, eyes were pretty wide open etc. - its like she wants the fuss but doesn't want me near her and is warring with herself! She was always a massive cuddler on the floor so this is the weirdest behaviour and obviously its the upsetting bit for me knowing she hates me! She is still grinding her teeth (sounds like she has a crunchy treat in her mouth that she keeps munching on from time to time) but then she goes and eats a pile of Timothy Hay or attacks her hay cookie. Ive tried her on hard hay sticks and she crunches them without too much difficulty, although she's definitely gone off them a bit since last week. She used to snatch them and run away, finishing them in minutes. Maybe they're too hard for her teeth?

I obviously cant say for sure, but I suspect one problem is indeed her teeth. Not only the crowns (ie molar spurs) but also elongated tooth roots. This is where the tooth roots overgrow and can press on the nasolacrimal ducts (tear ducts) causing gunky eyes and possibly secondary bacterial infection. Elongated tooth roots can be painful and the Rabbit may go off hard foods/hay

Does she ever have sneezing episodes, with or without nasal discharge ? This can be another pointer to elongated tooth roots.

These links may be useful to take a look at :

Dental problems

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Differential/Rabbit_dentistry.pdf

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/illness/dental-problems/

https://todaysveterinarynurse.com/articles/rabbit-dentistry/


Arthritis


https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/illness/rabbit-arthritis/

http://www.disabledrabbits.com/arthritis.html

http://www.disabledrabbits.com/arthritis.html

https://www.thorlaser.com/pet/?utm_...8zMUhgLIHrCJ5Oj61w3NJ-xf1anlX-QBoCeAoQAvD_BwE

https://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/services/rehabilitation/veterinary-acupuncture/

The Elderly Rabbit

https://www.vetnurseonline.co.uk/cms/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Senior-rabbits-lecturenotes-2.pdf

http://www.disabledrabbits.com/seniors.html
 
Does she ever have sneezing episodes, with or without nasal discharge ?

She actually does occasionally and rubs her nose a lot. She can do about 20 in a row, so that's interesting to know. I always figured she was getting fluff stuck there as shes a lionhead cross and very fluffy. She also occasionally gets very irritated with her ears and suddenly starts shaking her head and scratching in them, jumping around like there's bugs in there but I've checked, and the vet has, and from what we can tell (she's a lop and the fluff makes it hard) they're completely clean!

Everything you have said sounds so helpful (thank you so much) and I will look at those sites. I'm not thrilled at the dental idea because there won't be a lot I can do about it!

I think though, now she's recovered from the stasis and her stomach appears back to normal again, that I will start her back on the pain relief to see if she stops the grinding, as thats only one syringe a day. I only stopped it because she had the diarrhea and low appetite with her little cocktail of drugs, and coming off it all made her bounce back fast. At least that will tell me its pain and not stress, as hopefully she will stop grinding and want a fuss again. If she carries on with the grinding, then I'll know may be the stress of being alone and having the meds thrown at her (or the pain relief isn't strong enough). Not sure what I can do about either but at least I can work it out when I get to it! God my boy was so much easier!
 
Does she ever have sneezing episodes, with or without nasal discharge ?

She actually does occasionally and rubs her nose a lot. She can do about 20 in a row, so that's interesting to know. I always figured she was getting fluff stuck there as shes a lionhead cross and very fluffy. She also occasionally gets very irritated with her ears and suddenly starts shaking her head and scratching in them, jumping around like there's bugs in there but I've checked, and the vet has, and from what we can tell (she's a lop and the fluff makes it hard) they're completely clean!

Everything you have said sounds so helpful (thank you so much) and I will look at those sites. I'm not thrilled at the dental idea because there won't be a lot I can do about it!

I think though, now she's recovered from the stasis and her stomach appears back to normal again, that I will start her back on the pain relief to see if she stops the grinding, as thats only one syringe a day. I only stopped it because she had the diarrhea and low appetite with her little cocktail of drugs, and coming off it all made her bounce back fast. At least that will tell me its pain and not stress, as hopefully she will stop grinding and want a fuss again. If she carries on with the grinding, then I'll know may be the stress of being alone and having the meds thrown at her (or the pain relief isn't strong enough). Not sure what I can do about either but at least I can work it out when I get to it! God my boy was so much easier!

Hopefully some pain relief will get her feeling more comfortable. Re the dose, Rabbits metabolise Meloxicam (the active ingredient in Meloxaid) much more quickly than other species. Less Rabbit Savvy Vets may be nervous of giving high doses, but in order to give adequate pain relief higher doses are often needed. It can also be more effective if the doses are split into 2 12 hourly doses as opposed to one dose every 24 hours.

A bit more info re analgesia

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521861

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/meloxicam-as-analgesic-for-rabbits/

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/medical/pain-management-rabbits/
 
Hi all,

Please could I have some more advice about Elsa?

She went back on the pain meds for a bit and perked up but not fully. The vet has given her Baytril to help with her conjunctivitis in the hope that this is all an infection before we go down the teeth route as that will be it for her.

She’s now off the meloxocam as that was giving her diarrhoea again but is on the baytril and seems brighter and happier. Her eyes have stopped weeping and her nose is less runny. Not much grinding of her teeth. All good news for this week at least, it may be temporary and probably is.

My problem is that for the first time in nearly 10 years she won’t stop weeing on my bed at night. In the day time she used the litter for weed and most poos. At night the poos are always next to the cage with the litter tray and 3 times this week she’s done multiple big wees on the bed. Last nights was almost deliberately next to my head when I nudged her in my sleep (she came up, weed and went away again). And she’s just done another after a big fuss in the middle of the night.

Why is she doing this? Is it to establish who’s in charge now Loki has give? The meds causing it? Because she’s still in pain? Trying to claim my bed? The first time she was on the meloxicom, the 2nd and 3rd she was off the Meloxicom but on baytril so no pattern there.

I can’t keep washing my sheets in the night but I’m really starting to lose it a bit with it being one thing after another with her since losing Loki and don’t know how much more I can take! I don’t want to stop her coming in my room as she’s been sleeping on the bed every night since losing him and wants the company. How do you stop this if it isn’t hormones?

Thank you in advance. I’m so stressed over her right now!
 
Hi all,

Please could I have some more advice about Elsa?

She went back on the pain meds for a bit and perked up but not fully. The vet has given her Baytril to help with her conjunctivitis in the hope that this is all an infection before we go down the teeth route as that will be it for her.

She’s now off the meloxocam as that was giving her diarrhoea again but is on the baytril and seems brighter and happier. Her eyes have stopped weeping and her nose is less runny. Not much grinding of her teeth. All good news for this week at least, it may be temporary and probably is.

My problem is that for the first time in nearly 10 years she won’t stop weeing on my bed at night. In the day time she used the litter for weed and most poos. At night the poos are always next to the cage with the litter tray and 3 times this week she’s done multiple big wees on the bed. Last nights was almost deliberately next to my head when I nudged her in my sleep (she came up, weed and went away again). And she’s just done another after a big fuss in the middle of the night.

Why is she doing this? Is it to establish who’s in charge now Loki has give? The meds causing it? Because she’s still in pain? Trying to claim my bed? The first time she was on the meloxicom, the 2nd and 3rd she was off the Meloxicom but on baytril so no pattern there.

I can’t keep washing my sheets in the night but I’m really starting to lose it a bit with it being one thing after another with her since losing Loki and don’t know how much more I can take! I don’t want to stop her coming in my room as she’s been sleeping on the bed every night since losing him and wants the company. How do you stop this if it isn’t hormones?

Thank you in advance. I’m so stressed over her right now!

It probably is a behavioural issue and the weeing on your bed is her marking her territory. Once this behaviour starts IME the only way to stop it is to stop the Bunny jumping on the bed. I once had to make a DIY cot-side for my bed so a certain Bunny could not jump up on to it.
 
Hi cc208

I hope Elsa is starting to behave better! As someone who constantly takes their rabbit to the vet I know what you mean about habits changing...you end up wondering how and why all day! My Dex is starting to pee everywhere a the moment and it took a while to understand why. Sometimes you just need time to understand why things have changed.

I probably can't add too much but I know you are getting great advice on this forum.



Hope Elsa stops
 
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