Would you PTS?

We may have to make a decision about Smudge soon She is a 9yo spayed rabbit.

In December she was supposed to have a lump removed but the vet didn't want to do it because she was having breathing problems. We thought she had always breathed like this, but it would appear she actually has a problem. Antibiotics didn't change anything, but she was still happy eating, pooping, running around etc.

This last couple weeks we noticed a chance and her breathing appeared worse, she would sit funny as if she couldn't support her back legs, and her mouth would be slightly open. She also looked like she had lost weight. This would be noticeable when resting, but other than that she was eating, running around and pooping as normal. We took her to the vet last week and they thought her breathing was worse and she had also lost a lot of weight. She then had 1 antibiotic injection.

During the week nothing really changed and she has today had a second injection. She has an appointment next week for possibly a third injection but really the vet is thinking we may have to put to sleep if no improvement.

Would you put a bunny to sleep if they were still happy eating and playful, even if they had breathing problems and was losing weight?

Sorry you're in this situation. I personally would be looking for a diagnosis first, has the vet mentioned what they think is causing the breathing problems? X rays may be able to look at Smudge's heart and lungs. My only experience of a rabbit with breathing problems was one who started to lose weight and be picked on by his companion, he was also sneezing. We tried to treat for suspected pasteurella first with different daily antibiotics but a couple of different antibiotics made me difference so he had a chest X ray which showed an enlarged heart and gave us a diagnosis of congestive heart failure following a visit to a specialist. He could then be put on the correct treatment and was kept comfortable. Same with a rat I had recently who through X ray got a diagnosis of heart failure.

They don't know what is wrong, and no tests have been done, they don't seem to think it is worth it as she is so old? Not sure what to think about that now. I have told the vets each time that she is happy, runs around, jumps, eats, poops, etc. but they are just so concerned about her breathing being laboured and the weight loss.

Does x-ray involve going under GA? They won't put her under GA so not sure if she can have an x-ray.

How old is Smudge? For exotics the vets I've used have never used a GA for X rays, especially in cases of breathing problems.

She is 9. We could always ask about x ray next week I suppose. Don't they need the rabbit to be still for an x-ray?

Is she spayed ?

Yes she is.

Bless her. Normally for exotics the vets manage by placing them in a secure 'container' padded with towels so they don't move too much. My dog has had many X rays without sedation/GA too, not sure how they manage that but they do! If she's otherwise well and happy I would consider further diagnostics for her, as it sounds like the injections may not be helping.

smudgiebun said:

Yes she is.

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Sorry, I misread your OP. It is sometimes possible to obtain an Xray from a conscious Rabbit, but the images may not be conclusive and there are associated risks

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Man/LagomorphOverviews/Imaging_Rabbits.htm

Jack's-Jane said:

Sorry, I misread your OP. It is sometimes possible to obtain an Xray from a conscious Rabbit, but the images may not be conclusive and there are associated risks

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Man/LagomorphOverviews/Imaging_Rabbits.htm

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Thanks for that link and it's OK you didn't misread, I edited the post after you asked

I can't imagine Smudge staying still for an x-ray lol.

It might also be cancer, she has a lump on her leg which is growing and I suppose it could have spread?

Really we want to know how do you know if a rabbit is ready to be put to sleep? If she is eating, running around and still interested in things then I don't think she is?

smudgiebun said:

Really we want to know how do you know if a rabbit is ready to be put to sleep? If she is eating, running around and still interested in things then I don't think she is?

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Only you are able to judge on the quality of life that Smudge has. If she appears happy then it isn't the time, if she is struggling to live then you have to make a decision. Your vet can guide you, but it has to be your choice.
Richard

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Motty said:

Only you are able to judge on the quality of life that Smudge has. If she appears happy then it isn't the time, if she is struggling to live then you have to make a decision. Your vet can guide you, but it has to be your choice.
Richard

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

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Yes that's what my husband and I are thinking. She still seems quite happy being alive! Her personality hasn't changed at all.

She has actually looked more relaxed today so that's a positive. She was stretched out while resting which is something she hasn't done in the last few weeks. She had been sitting a bit hunched.

Motty said:

Only you are able to judge on the quality of life that Smudge has. If she appears happy then it isn't the time, if she is struggling to live then you have to make a decision. Your vet can guide you, but it has to be your choice.
Richard

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

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I agree! I hope she stays happy for some time to come.

smudgiebun said:

Really we want to know how do you know if a rabbit is ready to be put to sleep? If she is eating, running around and still interested in things then I don't think she is?

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It really is only a decision that you and a trusted Vet can make. This link gives a very general guide, but IMO each case needs to be judged individually and age alone should not be the only criteria

http://www.disabledrabbits.com/quality-of-life.html

Jack's-Jane said:

It really is only a decision that you and a trusted Vet can make. This link gives a very general guide, but IMO each case needs to be judged individually and age alone should not be the only criteria

http://www.disabledrabbits.com/quality-of-life.html

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Thanks Jane, that's a good page to read. It would seem she still very much enjoys life, eating, hopping around, affection with us and her husbun. Yet when she is resting she doesn't look comfortable She is on metacam 1x a day but I don't notice any changes to be honest.

I just don't know if the breathing issue trumps everything else.

smudgiebun said:

Thanks Jane, that's a good page to read. It would seem she still very much enjoys life, eating, hopping around, affection with us and her husbun. Yet when she is resting she doesn't look comfortable She is on metacam 1x a day but I don't notice any changes to be honest.

I just don't know if the breathing issue trumps everything else.

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Maybe the Vet would be willing to give prescribing a diuretic a try. If Smudge has a build up of fluid on her lungs/around her heart this will affect her respiratory rate/effort. Of course without diagnostics the Vet would be treating based solely on symptoms without knowing the cause. But if the alternative is PTS what is there to lose.................?? If a diuretic is going to help then it should do so relatively quickly. Within hours as opposed to days. Also, a blood test would not require sedation and may shed some light on what is going on. Also, an Ultrasound of the heart could be done without sedation. Congestive Heart failure (CHF) causes an increased respiratory rate/effort and is a common condition in older Rabbits Whilst it cannot be cure there are drugs that can be prescribed to help the heart function better and thus give the effected Rabbit a better quality of life.

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE ON THIS LINK*
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Cardiology/Failure/congestive.htm

The site that gives a lot of information about various health problems is down at the moment, but if you keep trying hopefully it will be back up soon and you should be able to navigate around it to find information that may be helpful for Smudge

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/List_Vols/Lagomorphs/List_Lagomorph_Dis.htm

So Smudge was meant to go to the vet last weekend for a checkup and possible further antibiotic injection if they think she needed it.

Due to trying to limit social contact at the moment I rang and checked if they still wanted to see her, because while she has lost a bit more weight, she is happy in herself, eating, drinking, pooping and playing, etc. So basically the receptionist checked with the vet and he said it's fine to leave it for now and just monitor her at home.

Is there anything I can do to help her gain a bit of weight? It's so sad seeing the number go down on the scale each time we weigh her and she feels bony We are really thinking it must be cancer now as the lump on her leg is still slowly growing

You can give her a few oats if she will eat them and keep her as happy as possible. x

Give her extra pellets, or add some syringe feeds into the daily routine. There are commercial powders you can try (eg Critical Care), but you can use mushed up pellets with a bit of added veg based baby food. I get the little pots of 4 apple / pear puree. Basically, anything that she will eat more of is perfectly acceptable at this point. eg Sunflower seed hearts are quite high in calories, so a teaspoon a day in with her normal food will help. Pellets for growing rabbits (ie Junior) tend to be higher in protein (and therefore calories), so you could try swapping over slowly.