• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

Advice on bonding please

A fairly dry day today so we took the opportunity earlier to take them outside again. this time I had a smallish mesh panel in with us so I could keep it between them if they got close, this worked better than my hand inbetween as I could let them get closer and see if they would attack rather than stopping them possibly unnecessarily. I know I will need to stop the barrier eventually but I figured for now I will try this way. I kept sort of following them around and moving it so they didn't notice too much it was between them. Hazel went for Shadow once (which he took no notice of) but we moved her away and let them carry on again. They spent most of the time ignoring each other eating grass, a few times they sniffed each other through the mesh but didn't attack (they may have done without it there I don't know), Hazel followed Shadow a few times so she may have attacked him if she could but she didn't seem to be being aggressive. Mostly he ignored her and she also spent most of the time munching. They were even munching right next to each other at a couple of points with the barrier inbetween not worried about the other being there. This session was about 35 minutes long so I would say it was pretty successful. I'm thinking try this for a few days (weather permitting!) until they seem ready to try without the mesh. In the house they can still see each other daily through the mesh on the gate that seperates them. It's only at night that they are properly apart. Fingers crossed for more good sessions :)
 
Just a quick update, sunday we did another shortish session outside, went well. Monday we did about 35 minutes but had to come in due to it raining! Today we did nearly an hour! Each time I had the mesh panel between them, moving it as they moved. neither showed any aggression today, they both were busy munching grass or sniffing each other through the mesh, then going off to munch again. Shadow did bite at the mesh and try to move it a couple of times but mostly I kept it so they didn't really notice it was there. Near the end Shadow was getting faster moving and did some binkys, I had to be quick to get the mesh between them as Hazel seemed unnerved with his fast movements. She didn't get aggressive but I think she would have gone for him if the mesh wasn't between. So I am going to continue this way for the next few days and then take it from there :)
 
Today was a bit mixed. I did about 1 hour 10 minutes. I tried to use the mesh divide less and my hand inbetween instead. Mostly it went well, a mix of them ignoring each other munching and a bit of interest now and then to each other. Hazel was more interested in Shadow, I allowed her to sniff the side of Shadow without a barrier but with my hand next to her, she was getting a bit too interested so I pushed her a little bit away, she was quite intent so I moved her again and put the mesh in the way. She went off eating again, Shadow seemed none the wiser that anything was happening. I continued like this, at one point they were munching pretty much nose to nose with my hand ready. Unfortunately on one occasion I was letting Hazel get near Shadow again and she was sniffing near his bum, he didn't seem to notice but decided to do a wee right then! It didn't get her but I'm guessing the sent aggravated her, she tried to get to him, not exactly aggressive but maybe wanting to mount him. I put the mesh panel in the way and she ran round the other way to try to get to him, I moved it and blocked her, she ran back the other way to get to him and I blocked her again. He didn't take much notice and hopped off, I blocked her again and started strkoking her. She settled but in a submissive sort of way. when I stopped she shook her ears and started munching again. I let them do a bit more munching and then ended the session. I was pleased that she didn't get aggressive with me when I was stopping her and wasn't trying to bite or make grunting noises etc. But she wanted to do something maybe dominate him I'm really not sure!
 
The last few days haven't gone great. Unfortunately the area I live in has tons of seagulls and the last few days when I've been outside with hazel and shadow, they have been so noisy. Shadow seems to have got used to the noise and only sometimes stops in fear, mainly he just carries on eating. hazel has been very scared, particularly yesterday, when another lot of birds (geese maybe) were also about flying overhead and adding to the constant sqwarking of the seagulls. She kept crouching down and kind of creeping along. She bit at shadow when I let them near each other, i think as she was scared. Mostly they have been completely fine through the barrier mesh eating near no problem. If I let them sniff each other a bit they are fine, nose to nose etc. But allowing any more freedom they start to get into a scuffle. So they seem to be tolerant of each other but I don't know how to get past this stage. Particularly now my neutral ground is upsetting hazel. Have done 1 hour sessions but cut short at half hour today as hazel was just scared the whole time and only stopped to munch grass a couple of times for a few seconds. In the house she is so brave and doesn't get scared easily but that isn't neutral ground. It is sooooooo frustrating, those annoying seagulls, we have a bt building just across the road with a massive flat roof and that's where the seagulls congregate hense the constant loud noise!
 
That's a shame about the birds. I can imagine it would be a problem though. It's hard to know what to suggest really, unless there's somewhere in the house where neither of them have been for any length of time, particularly Hazel as she is more likely to be territorial.
 
hazel is a little less uptight today, the seagulls aren't around much at the minute. Maybe i need to find what times in the day they are around less. Hazel has her 2 month checkup tomorrow for her cancer check, fingers crossed i haven't noticed any signs of illness. If she is still ok I'm maybe going to look at options of seeing if someone can take them in and bond them. There is a place I know that does it but it's a 4 hour drive away so not practical! i'm not sure how it works as I would imagine they could bond but then still have issues when back home again as it's Hazels territory, she ha pretty much been everywhere in the house!
 
Sending lots of vibes and good wishes for Hazel's check-up tomorrow. A 4 hour drive seems a lot. Perhaps someone on here knows and could recommend someone closer to you?
 
Thanks Omi. Hazel had her xray today and no signs of anything large so fingers crossed! She will be back in 2 months for another check. When we got back from thre vets I did another outdoor session with them, this went very well. At first Hazel was still stressed from the vet but she soon started munching. Not many birds around so she was pretty relaxed. Anyway when I was stroking Shadow, Hazel came up so I lifted the mesh away and stroked her too, yippee they had a smooch for about 10 minutes, chattering to each other. I stroked their heads constantly. Then one of them moved away and they both then munched again. I did over 2 hours in this session and managed to do 3 smooches, 2 were 10 minutes the other was about 5. Hazel was very relaxed and I didn't need to be firm with her but Shadow kept trying to push his head into her side or under her side a few times. Not like he was asking for strokes/licks, it was like he was up to something but I don't know what! Anyway a positive day today, fingers crossed for the same tomorrow :)
 
Unfortunately things really aren't going well so I don't know whether to give up. I managed to do some more smooching with them but a few days ago, I allowed them next to each other briefly and they just went round and round each other fighting, fur flying. I couldn't stop them, eventually I managed to. I separated them with the mesh but stayed outside for longer to allow it to end on a nicer note. They were both unhappy and mirrored each other up and down the divide for a bit then went off and did some munching. The next time they both approached the barrier, Hazel put her head sideways towards him as I stroked her, like she wanted to smooch with him again. He was not interested but didn't do anything. I did manage one time to lift the barrier about 1/2 an inch and they both had their heads down while I stoked them nose to nose. Back indoors they were fine through their mesh between their spaces. But the next day as soon as I got them outside, they went up to the barrier, Hazel sniffing as they both usually do, but he lunged for her (couldn't get her because of the mesh), I stroked them for a second. About 10 seconds later hazel went sniffing again and he put his tail up and lunged again, kicking his front feet at her. I stroked his head firmly and he relaxed. She went off munching so he then did the same. A bit later they were both sniffing each other so I stroked them both, lifted the barrier and we had another smooch for about 10 minutes. Unfortunately someone came to the door (the garden is enclosed but it is our access in and out the house), so we had to stop. Shadow ran round me so fast I didn't have time to stop him and they got to each other, they sniffed each others side and I decided not to stop them but then they went crazy round each other again so I separated them. After that they were both still acting aggressively/defensively. Again back inside they seem fine between their rooms. I got some advice from someone who does bonding to try putting them in a small neutral space and just let them be together, only to intervene if they are like a tornado. I was a bit concerned as Shadow does seem to have started to be aggressive since their first fight. But I tried it, water sprayer in hand! We put them both in and they started sniffing each others sides for about 5 seconds but then they started a wild round each other, and in a ball kind of a fight. I sprayed and sprayed them but no effect, we waited it out as instructed but it was too wild and Shadow was pinning hazel onto her back and had hold of her stomach. My partner picked him up and he still had hold of her, I was so scared she was going to get her stomach torn. Luckily he must have had hold of the weird massive clump of fur that is on her underneath where she was speyed, she is bald all around it! So she had no wounds there, they both had the odd small wound but nothing major, phew! We stroked one bunny each and calmed them down, we made the area bigger again, put them together with the barrier inbetween and I spent some more time with them (in the rain!). They did calm down and clean themselves and do some more munching. When I took them back in they seemed ok-ish. I didn't swap their rooms then as I thought they were stressed enough already. A few people have mentioned the putting them in a cage in the car option but I am so reluctant to do this, I am so worried that if I put them in, with the aggression that has been showing, they might not be stressed enough to end up cuddling and they might end up fighting like mad again and I wouldn't be able to stop them if they were in a cage. I wanted to give up but today I tried again back to just letting them be outside next to each other. Shadow was aggressive at the mesh to hazel. But then he kept pushing his head right to the mesh so his nose was poking through a bit, when she touched his nose he jumped back and did an attack move with his feet but them did the same again. I stroked them both either side and it seemed like they wanted to be near each other, Hazel in a more relaxed way, shadow in a very firm, pushy way, you can't push him away easily when he is like that, he is determined and his intentions aren't clear. When we came back in I swapped them over rooms. Shadow now has hazels room and the hallway and she has his room. He is loving it, both their rooms are good sizes but the hallway is big too so he has been running like crazy up and down, winding hazel up! She isn't too happy, at their gate she has been more intent, keep going back to it but I think she is better than I thought she would be about it. When they are both at the gate she is sniffing and mirroring him a little bit but not biting at it or scrabbling at it like she did when we first got him. I have asked a few local places if they have anyone who can come and help or me take them to their place but no one knows anyone with experience. I did speak to a lady earlier who used to do it in this area but she is getting old now and said she hasn't done it in years and didn't think she would be able to do any more than I am. She said it didn't sound good with the aggression and maybe it wasn't going to be a good match. If I could see further down the line that this was going to work, then I would 100% carry on no matter what. Hazel really seems like she would love to be cuddling up to him and she definielty enjoys the smooches with him. But he still has something to work out but I can't let them get past it when it's getting so aggressive that could cause serious injury. I am trying the swapping over and going to continue outside but with the barrier and see if it calms shadow down at all. I don't want to continue for too much longer though as Hazel is getting so stressed with all these different things. Shadow seems to take things in his stride but I don't want to accidently turn him into an aggressive bunny or something!
 
Unfortunately things really aren't going well so I don't know whether to give up. I managed to do some more smooching with them but a few days ago, I allowed them next to each other briefly and they just went round and round each other fighting, fur flying. I couldn't stop them, eventually I managed to. I separated them with the mesh but stayed outside for longer to allow it to end on a nicer note. They were both unhappy and mirrored each other up and down the divide for a bit then went off and did some munching. The next time they both approached the barrier, Hazel put her head sideways towards him as I stroked her, like she wanted to smooch with him again. He was not interested but didn't do anything. I did manage one time to lift the barrier about 1/2 an inch and they both had their heads down while I stoked them nose to nose. Back indoors they were fine through their mesh between their spaces. But the next day as soon as I got them outside, they went up to the barrier, Hazel sniffing as they both usually do, but he lunged for her (couldn't get her because of the mesh), I stroked them for a second. About 10 seconds later hazel went sniffing again and he put his tail up and lunged again, kicking his front feet at her. I stroked his head firmly and he relaxed. She went off munching so he then did the same. A bit later they were both sniffing each other so I stroked them both, lifted the barrier and we had another smooch for about 10 minutes. Unfortunately someone came to the door (the garden is enclosed but it is our access in and out the house), so we had to stop. Shadow ran round me so fast I didn't have time to stop him and they got to each other, they sniffed each others side and I decided not to stop them but then they went crazy round each other again so I separated them. After that they were both still acting aggressively/defensively. Again back inside they seem fine between their rooms. I got some advice from someone who does bonding to try putting them in a small neutral space and just let them be together, only to intervene if they are like a tornado. I was a bit concerned as Shadow does seem to have started to be aggressive since their first fight. But I tried it, water sprayer in hand! We put them both in and they started sniffing each others sides for about 5 seconds but then they started a wild round each other, and in a ball kind of a fight. I sprayed and sprayed them but no effect, we waited it out as instructed but it was too wild and Shadow was pinning hazel onto her back and had hold of her stomach. My partner picked him up and he still had hold of her, I was so scared she was going to get her stomach torn. Luckily he must have had hold of the weird massive clump of fur that is on her underneath where she was speyed, she is bald all around it! So she had no wounds there, they both had the odd small wound but nothing major, phew! We stroked one bunny each and calmed them down, we made the area bigger again, put them together with the barrier inbetween and I spent some more time with them (in the rain!). They did calm down and clean themselves and do some more munching. When I took them back in they seemed ok-ish. I didn't swap their rooms then as I thought they were stressed enough already. A few people have mentioned the putting them in a cage in the car option but I am so reluctant to do this, I am so worried that if I put them in, with the aggression that has been showing, they might not be stressed enough to end up cuddling and they might end up fighting like mad again and I wouldn't be able to stop them if they were in a cage. I wanted to give up but today I tried again back to just letting them be outside next to each other. Shadow was aggressive at the mesh to hazel. But then he kept pushing his head right to the mesh so his nose was poking through a bit, when she touched his nose he jumped back and did an attack move with his feet but them did the same again. I stroked them both either side and it seemed like they wanted to be near each other, Hazel in a more relaxed way, shadow in a very firm, pushy way, you can't push him away easily when he is like that, he is determined and his intentions aren't clear. When we came back in I swapped them over rooms. Shadow now has hazels room and the hallway and she has his room. He is loving it, both their rooms are good sizes but the hallway is big too so he has been running like crazy up and down, winding hazel up! She isn't too happy, at their gate she has been more intent, keep going back to it but I think she is better than I thought she would be about it. When they are both at the gate she is sniffing and mirroring him a little bit but not biting at it or scrabbling at it like she did when we first got him. I have asked a few local places if they have anyone who can come and help or me take them to their place but no one knows anyone with experience. I did speak to a lady earlier who used to do it in this area but she is getting old now and said she hasn't done it in years and didn't think she would be able to do any more than I am. She said it didn't sound good with the aggression and maybe it wasn't going to be a good match. If I could see further down the line that this was going to work, then I would 100% carry on no matter what. Hazel really seems like she would love to be cuddling up to him and she definielty enjoys the smooches with him. But he still has something to work out but I can't let them get past it when it's getting so aggressive that could cause serious injury. I am trying the swapping over and going to continue outside but with the barrier and see if it calms shadow down at all. I don't want to continue for too much longer though as Hazel is getting so stressed with all these different things. Shadow seems to take things in his stride but I don't want to accidently turn him into an aggressive bunny or something!

I think with all bonds which are not going well, it's difficult to know how to proceed from here. As you say the impact on the bunnies should also be taken into consideration. I think your options would seem to be to give up, to have them living side by side for quite a while without actual physical interaction with a view to retrying much later or to try to find a bonder close enough to help. It is a very difficult decision :(
 
I think with all bonds which are not going well, it's difficult to know how to proceed from here. As you say the impact on the bunnies should also be taken into consideration. I think your options would seem to be to give up, to have them living side by side for quite a while without actual physical interaction with a view to retrying much later or to try to find a bonder close enough to help. It is a very difficult decision :(

I am sorry things are not going so well and I agree with Omi. Maybe put the bonding on hold for the time being and try again when the warmer weather comes in. Your chances of them bonding are imo still high so no need to give up hope. Rabbits have to learn to trust one another and this doesn't come easily or quickly with some of them
 
Thanks Omi & Tonibun, as I started swapping their rooms yesterday, I decided I will continue that for about another week, also continue to take them outside (as long as Hazel doesn't get too stressed with the birds) but not try to actually do any bonding. If there are signs of improvement I will continue to try with them. I am contacting my vets tomorrow to see if they know of anyone who could help. If I have no luck finding anyone to help and they both seem unhappy, I am thinking I will have to let Shadow go. The rescue agreed when we got him that it was on a trial basis and they would rehome him if it didn't work out. My plan was if this happened, I can offer to keep Shadow until they find a suitable home, that way he wouldn't have to go back to a smaller cage again. And also while we are waiting you never know, we could have a break through. And if he does find a new home, hopefully he would get on with another bunny instead. The problem with trying to keep them both is firstly that Hazel has been used to having her room as well as the run of the large hallway (and she always wants more space!). Shadow's room is meant to be temporary for him and is a little bit smaller than Hazels, in the end they were both to be in Hazels room and the hallway. When shadow was in the hallway yesterday he was sooooo happy. Hazel was not too happy in his room. She was her usual happy self this afternoon when she was back in her room (after stamping her feet a couple of times first!). If I stop swapping them, that won't be fair on Shadow, he will get very frustrated as he loved the hallway. If I keep swapping them long term, that will make hazel very unhappy and I can tell she is unsettled at the moment. Shadow seems to be taking most of it in his stride. I could keep them in their own rooms and alternate them using the hallway (both rooms lead onto the hallway so I can close hazels gate to shut her in and open shadows to let him out). But I had this situation longterm with my previous 2 bunnies who wouldn't bond and it wasn't ideal as they both would tend to sit at their gate watching the other one being in the hallway. That's why I had said to the rescue about if it didn't work out I didn't want that same situation for either of them.
Fingers crossed for some progress over the week. I think Hazel is probably the bigger concern as she seems to be stressed over it all, but also she is the one now that seems to want to have the company. It would be easier if she was still the one being aggressive as then the decision would be simpler to make. Why do bunnies have to be so complicated!
 
Rabbits are complicated but so are humans at times. As I said before, they probably need more time to feel safe with one another. I think your patience will pay off as there are many rabbits which have taken up to 6 months to bond!
 
I completely understand your reasoning and think you are doing the right thing. I have been in the situation of having to return bunnies who didn't bond with my bunny, so I know how rotten that feels.

Hopefully given a bit more time they will trust each other and live happily together, but if they don't well you know that you've tried and done the best for both of them.
 
Thankyou Tonibun & Omi for your continued support :) I emailed my vets late last night and got a response this morning, the lady who responded didn't know of anyone (other than a local person I had already contacted who couldn't help) but she is passing my email round to the staff and students. My vet is part of a small local chain so I m hopeful someone will know someone! Plus she mentioned the students may know someone at their college. Fingers crossed! I had a bit of negative behaviour through the mesh outside today from Hazel but mostly they were fine, I also managed to do some stroking and they had a bit of a smooch, they chattered to each other too, I hope they were saying nice things to each other!
 
Back
Top