Update on Lillian and urinary issues - 25th Oct

A quick update for you all about Lillian and her urinary concerns.
Lillian went back today to the vet to have some urine taken direct from her bladder. She's had quite a few visits recently and I'm really feeling for her. But she's quite a strong bunny deep down.
The vet struggled most of the day to get any urine from her bladder until about 2pm when she managed to get hold of some. This will now be analysed and results should be back in the next 24/48 hours. So we'll know if there is any infection or not. As much as I was hesitant to put Lillian through yet another day in the hospital and more testing and examination, I also feel that we do need some sort of clarity. I feel a sense of paranoia because I feel as if I'm over reacting, but at the same time, I have a responsibility for Lillians welfare - which I take very seriously despite my inability to recognise when she is unwell.
However, I'm hoping that this procedure will give definitive results on what if anything we are delaing with. Deep down, I hope the results come back nagative and if they do, whilst that means we've put Lillian through this for nothing, we haven't. I'd rather the tests came back negative.
The vet - the exotic specialist, says LIllian is overweight at 3.5kg - which has been her weight for most of the time we've had her, with the excpetion of when we first got her and she was malnourished and had been deliberately starved and denied food in her former care. So we need to get her weight down - which I've been trying to do by reducing the pellet intake. Trouble is, Henry also needs feeding and Lillian is always first to the food bowl. The pellets seem to be the cuplrit so I'll just have to reduce even more and I've already got special pellets for overweight rabbits.
The vet said there could be a number of reasons for Lillian being wet. One is that there is this flap of skin apparently that somes down when she pees and because of her overweight, this might be impacting on this?
Another possibility is scar tissue from her stone removal in June.
An ultrasound was taken today as well as the procedure to remove urine but we haven't got the results of that yet.
Lillian appears to be fine tonight. She had some garden time this afternoon and she's sitting under the dining room table now patiently waiting for supper!
I will update this thread once we have the test results back. Lillian appears to be peeing ok, plenty of evidence of that in the toilet area. And she is dry underneath (if a little sore from the small needle that was inserted).
Thank you all again for all your kind support and wishes for Lillian.
Craig x

Oh brave girl Lillian xxx I really hope everything comes back negative Craig, you are doing a great job with her, and with Henry too. Hope you don't have too long for results xxx

You are right to have this testing. Even if it is negative, it gives you peace of mind and rules out several reasons for her not being 100%.
My two bunny girls also like to eat. While limiting pellets can help, this is difficult if there are multiples sharing the same food.
I once had a girl who gained weight by eating hay so some must be genetic.
After observing her was your vet able to tell if she is wet because she lacks control, because she cannot clean herself, because she is not positioning herself before peeing, or neurological?

Sending you both some positive vibes for good news.

Craig 1965 said:

with the excpetion of when we first got her and she was malnourished and had been deliberately starved and denied food in her former care.

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This makes me so sad, how could anyone even consider doing such a thing
Lillian is so very lucky to have you looking after her now. I hope you get results to say that she is okay, but you've done the right thing getting her tested because it will give you peace of mind either way.

Sending lots of vibes for Lillian. I hope the tests all come back with negative results.

Sending more vibes for Lilian,brave girl.x

Poor Lillian. She's really having a tough time. Trying to reduce a bun's weight when you have more than one bun is very difficult. I have struggled with this in the past and ended up with a slightly underweight companion which made me feel dreadful. Lillian seems to get more exercise than many bunnies too so increasing that wouldn't be easy.

Topping up the vibes xxx

For what its worth i think putting her through further diagnostics was a sensible & kind decision. It is always better safe than sorry & 'negative' results are useful too. its not like you randomly decided she has a UTI with no history & no symptoms.

I had an over weight bun who FHB did surgery as she had an issue sounding similar to Lillians - but with different consequences. Myrtle was a bit whiffy & prone to infection. It wasn't thought hers would resolve on its own through weight loss alone. My friends all took the pee & she was a proper princess bunny & they thought it hilarious she was having a "designer Va....." . It was down on my bill as "labial skin fold reduction' or something similar. Not the same as Hillian as Myrtles sounds worse & she had no issues with continence

Loads of vibes. I hope the results offer peace of mind xx

joey&boo said:

For what its worth i think putting her through further diagnostics was a sensible & kind decision. It is always better safe than sorry & 'negative' results are useful too. its not like you randomly decided she has a UTI with no history & no symptoms.

I had an over weight bun who FHB did surgery as she had an issue sounding similar to Lillians - but with different consequences. Myrtle was a bit whiffy & prone to infection. It wasn't thought hers would resolve on its own through weight loss alone. My friends all took the pee & she was a proper princess bunny & they thought it hilarious she was having a "designer Va....." . It was down on my bill as "labial skin fold reduction' or something similar. Not the same as Hillian as Myrtles sounds worse & she had no issues with continence

Loads of vibes. I hope the results offer peace of mind xx

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This is very interesting - about excess labial skin fold. My Pepper is prone to infections and whilst we’re now in a good period due to low-calcium veg + bottled water, OH and I both think her labia seems to be part of the issue.

I’m going to google this x

Beau Belle said:

This is very interesting - about excess labial skin fold. My Pepper is prone to infections and whilst we’re now in a good period due to low-calcium veg + bottled water, OH and I both think her labia seems to be part of the issue.

I’m going to google this x

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I had a Bunny with this problem and my Vet had to do a bit of 'cosmetic surgery' to remove the excess skin folds xx

Brave Lillian, I hope the test results come back negative x

Hoping for good news.

U/D for you all.
The vet has just this minute rung regarding Lillians test results. There's good news and bad news.....
The good news - and the one you were all hoping for, was the the results came back negative for bacterium (and I also think they suggested pregnancy - although she was spayed 2 years ago so not sure why that one was mentioned). This news pleases me, but also suggests I was over-reacting and being pannicky over Lillians peeing. I suppose it could be rightly suggested that with Lillians recent hospitalisation with UTI and bladder stones, I was perhaps being over sensitive on the matter. But since I felt as though I'd let Lillian down by not identifying these things earlier, I've gone the other way and acted perhaps in some haste. But at least the results are negative - meaning Lillian is free from infection. Of course, she is peeing loads - as evidence suggests when I clean the bunnies out.
Now, the bad news is that the vet wishes to speak with me/us when they are back next week. This signals to me that it's lecture time (again) about Lillians weight.
I understand the concerns that the vet may have - and to that end I'm responsible. However, Lillian was skin & bones when we rescued her and I have no doubt that Lillians desire to get to food first stems from this background. It is deep rooted and psychological and it's hard to undo that. Since stopping the small amount of Russell rabbit food we were giving Lillian & Henry, consumption of greens has increased. I've switched to using excell overweight nuggets - which get treated with utter contempt by Lillian. She really isn't a fan - but at some point during the night someone eats the small handful that I put out.
But I also have to put Henry into the equation and he doesn't need to go on a diet - so I try to give him a small handful of russell rabbit food when the floof monster is about.
So I'm going to probably get a hard time when the vet rings me next week.
Anyway, the good positive news is that Lillian has no infection present and is fine. She's chilling out in the kitchen/diner with Henry as we speak
Thank you all again for your vibes and thoughts for Lillian.
Craig x

Craig 1965 said:

U/D for you all.
The vet has just this minute rung regarding Lillians test results. There's good news and bad news.....
The good news - and the one you were all hoping for, was the the results came back negative for bacterium (and I also think they suggested pregnancy - although she was spayed 2 years ago so not sure why that one was mentioned). This news pleases me, but also suggests I was over-reacting and being pannicky over Lillians peeing. I suppose it could be rightly suggested that with Lillians recent hospitalisation with UTI and bladder stones, I was perhaps being over sensitive on the matter. But since I felt as though I'd let Lillian down by not identifying these things earlier, I've gone the other way and acted perhaps in some haste. But at least the results are negative - meaning Lillian is free from infection. Of course, she is peeing loads - as evidence suggests when I clean the bunnies out.
Now, the bad news is that the vet wishes to speak with me/us when they are back next week. This signals to me that it's lecture time (again) about Lillians weight.
I understand the concerns that the vet may have - and to that end I'm responsible. However, Lillian was skin & bones when we rescued her and I have no doubt that Lillians desire to get to food first stems from this background. It is deep rooted and psychological and it's hard to undo that. Since stopping the small amount of Russell rabbit food we were giving Lillian & Henry, consumption of greens has increased. I've switched to using excell overweight nuggets - which get treated with utter contempt by Lillian. She really isn't a fan - but at some point during the night someone eats the small handful that I put out.
But I also have to put Henry into the equation and he doesn't need to go on a diet - so I try to give him a small handful of russell rabbit food when the floof monster is about.
So I'm going to probably get a hard time when the vet rings me next week.
Anyway, the good positive news is that Lillian has no infection present and is fine. She's chilling out in the kitchen/diner with Henry as we speak
Thank you all again for your vibes and thoughts for Lillian.
Craig x

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I am glad to hear that Lillian does not have a UTI. I hope you can devise a feeding plan that incorporates her need to lose weight and Henry's need to maintain his.

Is there a specific reason why you feed the RR muesli ? You may find some information on alternative, less calorific concentrated foods here :

http://www.therabbithouse.com/diet/rabbit-food-comparison.asp

That's great news.:thumb:

JJ - as ever your input is valued and very gratefully received. I wish you would go on telly and do a rabbit specific series - you would be so wonderful on that.
That information is incredibly useful and points me in the right direction. To be fair, I've alays gone with RR - I guess branding is the reason and all my buns have enjoyed it. But it's probably also the worst as far as fat content. I'm presently on the excel light nuggets - but that obviously is not as yummy so there's not the rush to shove their noses in it as it is with the RR. However, like most things, what's usually the yummiest is also probably not the best - and to be fair, I did catch Lillian sticking her nose into the excel earlier so I know she is eating it. I also work at a company that distributes all those products so I can order or get the healthy options ones. We also make various other products that are on the list you sent.
Thank you agian JJ - the voice of wisdom and sense as always.

Craig 1965 said:

JJ - as ever your input is valued and very gratefully received. I wish you would go on telly and do a rabbit specific series - you would be so wonderful on that.
That information is incredibly useful and points me in the right direction. To be fair, I've alays gone with RR - I guess branding is the reason and all my buns have enjoyed it. But it's probably also the worst as far as fat content. I'm presently on the excel light nuggets - but that obviously is not as yummy so there's not the rush to shove their noses in it as it is with the RR. However, like most things, what's usually the yummiest is also probably not the best - and to be fair, I did catch Lillian sticking her nose into the excel earlier so I know she is eating it. I also work at a company that distributes all those products so I can order or get the healthy options ones. We also make various other products that are on the list you sent.
Thank you agian JJ - the voice of wisdom and sense as always.

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Ideally adult Pet Rabbits can have a totally pellet/muesli free diet. As long as they are good hay eaters then a variety of hays, forages (fresh and dry) and veg provide all the nutrients they need.

These links may also be helpful :

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ar...heets/recommended-diet-for-adult-rabbits/view

http://www.therabbithouse.com/diet/

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-diet/

Craig, wonderful news about Lillian, I am really happy for you.

I am watching this with interest as Susan is portly! (and I get told off by the vets) and poor Dilly is underweight.

I too have A jack Sprat & his fatty wife scenario here. Whilst not easy it is at least something you can manage at home without lots of interventions & expense (I'm assuming the fat talk won't involve advising a gastric band :shock. It is also easier to make a chubby bun lose weight (cos you control what they have) whereas a skinny bunny can be presented with all manner of tasty fodder but can't control if they eat. Could you take Lillian of all pellets & feed veg, hay & forage only. That will meet all her nutritional needs then hand feed Henry nuggets & any high calorie foods

I'll get Mystic Mouse to check in with her over the comfort eating thing

Great news its not an infection

So glad it's not an infection

Honestly feel for your situation, Clementine gets hay, veg, and her two urinary treats per day and she's so fat.. Atticus has same diet, and is the perfect weight. Apricot and Penelope just hay and veg and Apricot is now underweight and Penelope has gained but isn't overweight.. Their diets are all very controlled and similar, yet they still all react differently [emoji51]

Maybe removing the pellets would help? My vet yesterday said rabbits don't need them if they get veg and hay tbh.

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