Spare vibes for Lillian please

Could I please ask for some spare vibes for Lillian - again please?
I'm quite fearful that she has got a reaoccurance of her bladder stone ailment that she had 3-4 months ago.
Her fur is wet around her genitalia area - which is a major symptom of urinary problems. There is also some evidence to suggest she is not peeing as much and her appetite appears to have fallen off. As yet, I am unable to identify of she is incontenant - there is no evidence that she is peeing in other areas other than shere she should. When I cleaned her underside a short while ago, I put flamzene on the area to attempt to combat any possible urine scald and as I held whilst brushing her on her towel, she peed and what concerns me was that it appeared dark, and stained. She is presenting symptoms that appear to suggest bladder issues again, but I am at a loss to understand if or why a bladder stone could have re-occured in such a relatively short perid of time - it was June when she had her operation to remove the stone she had then.
She seems to be not as interested in food as she usually is, although she has munched on some fresh parsley this afternoon. I had brought her (and Henry) some really leafy celery from a food market in York yesterday, along with an incredibly leaft celeriac (which I have not seen before) and some fresh parsley. I had hoped they would enjoy the tasty greens.
The rabbit sitter advised us yesterday that everything seemed fine with the buns, so this morning when the food seemed untouched, I began to get concerned. This all points to me being further neglectful in my duties of care towards Lillian and Henry and I am questioning my future ability to look after Lillian and Henry.
Our vet is closed on a sunday afternoon and whilst I could ring the vet hospital and get an emergency call out, I am going to take Lillian to the vets first thing in the morning without an appointment and hope getting to the vets as soon as they open, someone will find a slot to see Lillian straight away.
If anyone has any other prognosis based on the symptoms I have described, other than bladder stones, then I am open to your superior knowledge and experience. Bladder sludge is one thought in my mind but not sure if the symptoms I have described are the same for sludge. Does anyone know if bladder stones form so quickly after being removed?
I am just sitting sobbing my eyes out - today is also the 2nd anniversary of Goergina going to the bridge, so my heart is full of sadness for that. And now Lillian having urinary issues again so soon after her last episide is just more than I feel mentally able to cope with right now. But this isn't about me - it is about Lillian and her health is my focus.
If anyone knows of any other ailments other than bladder stone, that could be the cause of these symptoms, then please let me know your thoughts. Obviously I will update the thread tomorrow following the consultation and I am hoping that it will be at least a diagnosis and some degree of treatment. I hope an operation is not an immediate option - as Lillian was extremely poorly after her last op in June, but if that is the way forward then we will obviously agree to that as soon as the vet is able to.
If you do have some spare vibes for Lillian please, she would be very grateful for them - as they made a huge difference to her recovery last time from all the kind good wishes from you all.
CRaig x

Oh Craig, my best wishes to both you & Lillian.
Please though, whatever you do don't doubt your ability to care for buns . There is no-one I know who cares more & you are always right on top of any issues very fast. Buns just happen to be buns.
xxx

Sending loads of vibes for Lillian. I wouldn't be concerned that her urine is dark, as this is very likely due to what plants she has been eating. I hope the vet can establish what the problem is.

Omi said:

Sending loads of vibes for Lillian. I wouldn't be concerned that her urine is dark, as this is very likely due to what plants she has been eating. I hope the vet can establish what the problem is.

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Omi - now, you see, in between bouts of sobbing uncontrolably, I read this particular thing on some interweb site - porphyrinuria I think is what it's called. It's due to the chlorophyl in plants turning the urine dark. I briefly accepted that this may be a remote possibility - or maybe it was because 'I wanted to believe it', as opposed to the alternative issue of some deeper bladder issue. My gut instinct is telling me that Lillian is not right - and since I don't hold a vetinarian degree, than I must seek the guidance of a vet in order to determine what (if anything) is the problem with Lillian.
I do agree with you about porphyrinuria - and Lillian does eat predominantly greens - dark leafy ones.
In my defence, after the bladder stone problem in June, I removed about 90% of the dried food intake - although I also have to cater for Henry and he doesn't have any urinary problems. Lillian looks for breakfast and supper every day because of the lack of dried food - but this was essential to reduce the calcium intake from dried food. I have also changed their water so they only have bottled spring water. I feel I am making a positive effort to reduce calcium intake - which is why I am at a complete loss to this.
Thank you Omi (and Mike) for your vibes. I am very grateful to you both.

Omi said:

Sending loads of vibes for Lillian. I wouldn't be concerned that her urine is dark, as this is very likely due to what plants she has been eating. I hope the vet can establish what the problem is.

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I completely agree about the dark pee! It can massively vary depending on what they've eaten plant wise


I'm no expert but Clementine obviously had terrible sludge issues, which fingers crossed we seem to be on top of now, she has an xray every month to check etc. So maybe Lillian could have one to see what's going on inside hers? Your vet will know, but it might not be a stone, could be sludge or a uti...or something less major.

I don't think this could've been avoided or is your fault at all btw, you're an awesome bunny carer and Lillian and Henry are so lucky to have you

I will say though if she's not eating, I'd get her to a vets ASAP, because you don't want stasis on top of the urinary issues and if she is very uncomfortable because of urinary issues it could be causing her to not want to eat due to pain. Just my opinion though, I know you'll do your best for her xx

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Sending lots of vibes for her. I agree, if she’s not eating I would have her seen ASAP.

Is she pooing and do they look normal?

I'm really sorry Lillian is giving you cause for concern again. I hope the vet is able to get to the bottom of it. I can't remember if you said so previously but has she had any scans? If not, I think a CT scan would give a good indication of exactly what's going on.

With regards to her diet, is she able to tolerate fresh grass ok? When Fudgie was diagnosed with kidney disease, Jane and J&B very kindly posted some links from FHB and she said fresh grass was one of the best things to give bunnies with kidney and bladder issues as the ratio of calcium and phosphorus are just right and the extra moisture in the grass helps to dilute existing calcium in their system.

Please don't think this in any way detracts from your ability to take care of your buns. There are many people on this forum, yourself included, who are excellent care givers but still have buns with chronic health issues. Often these things happen as a result of pure rotten bad luck. I remember the specialist looking after Fudgie said that some bunnies have a genetic predisposition to certain conditions and so there is absolutely nothing we did that could have caused them. All we can do is keep a careful eye and react when we see a flare up, and that's exactly what you're doing for Lillian.

In the meantime, I'm sending lots of vibes for Lillian and I'm hoping she picks up a bit soon.

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Omi said:

Is she pooing and do they look normal?

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Hard to say - and I know that sounds strange, but both Lillian and Henry use the same dedicated area for their toilet. When I cleaned them out this morning, output looked down on what it usually is, but on the flip side, at weekends, they usually have alot of garden time because we are here. OUr rabbit sitter was here yesterday so they had quite a bt of time out, and our rabbit sitter reports no issues - eating seemed ok.
So Im afraid the honest answer to your question is I just don't know for sure.
Sorry.

Scrappy's Little Helper said:

I'm really sorry Lillian is giving you cause for concern again. I hope the vet is able to get to the bottom of it. I can't remember if you said so previously but has she had any scans? If not, I think a CT scan would give a good indication of exactly what's going on.

With regards to her diet, is she able to tolerate fresh grass ok? When Fudgie was diagnosed with kidney disease, Jane and J&B very kindly posted some links from FHB and she said fresh grass was one of the best things to give bunnies with kidney and bladder issues as the ratio of calcium and phosphorus are just right and the extra moisture in the grass helps to dilute existing calcium in their system.

Please don't think this in any way detracts from your ability to take care of your buns. There are many people on this forum, yourself included, who are excellent care givers but still have buns with chronic health issues. Often these things happen as a result of pure rotten bad luck. I remember the specialist looking after Fudgie said that some bunnies have a genetic predisposition to certain conditions and so there is absolutely nothing we did that could have caused them. All we can do is keep a careful eye and react when we see a flare up, and that's exactly what you're doing for Lillian.

In the meantime, I'm sending lots of vibes for Lillian and I'm hoping she picks up a bit soon.

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Fresh grass is very high on Lillians like list. We are lucky in that we have a moderate garden with decent lawns. I haven't cut the grass for a few weeks and Lillian loves chowing down on the grass. She's a great lawnmowe - and shows Henry how to do it. This also adds to my puzzement about the urinary issues because we've had 3-4 months since she had the bladder stone and during that time, she and Henry have had loads of garden time with days filled predominantly with scoffing grass.
Thank you for your vibes SLH - we are so grateful for them.
Craig x

Graciee said:

I completely agree about the dark pee! It can massively vary depending on what they've eaten plant wise


I'm no expert but Clementine obviously had terrible sludge issues, which fingers crossed we seem to be on top of now, she has an xray every month to check etc. So maybe Lillian could have one to see what's going on inside hers? Your vet will know, but it might not be a stone, could be sludge or a uti...or something less major.

I don't think this could've been avoided or is your fault at all btw, you're an awesome bunny carer and Lillian and Henry are so lucky to have you

I will say though if she's not eating, I'd get her to a vets ASAP, because you don't want stasis on top of the urinary issues and if she is very uncomfortable because of urinary issues it could be causing her to not want to eat due to pain. Just my opinion though, I know you'll do your best for her xx

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I was hoping for your input on this Graciee - because of the problems you have had with Clementine and her sludge. This was one thought I had, although I can't see any tangible evidence by way of the sandy coloured urine etc. But, and it is a big but, I am hoping very much that if there is a diagnosis of a problem, that sludge is the most likely because if my readings are correct, there is not the invasive procedure for dealing with that, as there was with the bladder stone. The vet may suggest an ex-ray which would definitively say whether there is a stone there or not.
Thank you for your vibes.
Craig x

This is out of my experience so I can't offer advice, just loads of vibes for you Lillian x

Sending vibes for Lilian and a hug for you x

Craig 1965 said:

I was hoping for your input on this Graciee - because of the problems you have had with Clementine and her sludge. This was one thought I had, although I can't see any tangible evidence by way of the sandy coloured urine etc. But, and it is a big but, I am hoping very much that if there is a diagnosis of a problem, that sludge is the most likely because if my readings are correct, there is not the invasive procedure for dealing with that, as there was with the bladder stone. The vet may suggest an ex-ray which would definitively say whether there is a stone there or not.
Thank you for your vibes.
Craig x

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Yea with Clementine it mainly turned out to be she didn't like certain waters so she wasn't drinking at all.. [emoji849] So now we make sure she gets a really wet diet and she has water she prefers. She also has dandelion root daily which is a natural diuretic, oxbow urinary support tabs (Idk if these help or not, my vet said they won't hurt and to carry on with them, so she has two a day) and she has the urinary support fibre sticks aswell now.

Also she is quite lazy, she still is, but it's better [emoji38]

Sludge isn't particularly nice.. As they have to flush their bladder (if it's bad) which wasn't good, Clementine had it twice and I couldn't put her through it again.

Clementine had bright red urine when she had sludge and the sludge that came out looked like gritty mud tbh.. So I think it can vary.

Maybe try and get a urine sample to take to the vets to see if it's a uti or something.

Is she eating at all? It's so difficult when there's two together I know, I had this issue yesterday with Apricot, but when I couldn't get her to eat I decided to take her because she was clearly uncomfortable at least.

Sending hugs and vibes for you a Lillian, I really hope it's nothing serious xxx

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Just to quickly update - it's 7:30 and Lillian has just eaten half a cabbage leaf so at least she is eating something. Not quite the full on stuffing her face approach she usually has, but hopefully at this stage, avoiding any signs of stasis.

Sorry to hear that Lillian isn’t herself, Craig.

From my experience of being an owner of a rabbit with urinary issues, it could just be something as simple as a urine infection, as that presents the same symptoms in Snowy - wet underneath, off food, etc. In fact she’s currently on a 3 week course of antibiotics following the same symptoms as Lillian.

Try not to worry yourself too much, hard I know but it could have an easily treatable cause. And as always you are giving her the best care possible x


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nap91 said:

Sorry to hear that Lillian isn’t herself, Craig.

From my experience of being an owner of a rabbit with urinary issues, it could just be something as simple as a urine infection, as that presents the same symptoms in Snowy - wet underneath, off food, etc. In fact she’s currently on a 3 week course of antibiotics following the same symptoms as Lillian.

Try not to worry yourself too much, hard I know but it could have an easily treatable cause. And as always you are giving her the best care possible x


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Thank you Nap01 - when I'm feeling as if everything is closing around me, you sweep in with some postive and very plausible diagnosis. I must admit I had not considered this - I'm sort of too quick to look on the more negative side of prognosis than the positive.
You have lifted my spirits a little so I'm going to treat myself to a little bit of chocolate.
Thank you Nap91 - and to everyone for your vibes.
Craig x

So sorry to hear about Lillian Craig. Really hope it turns out to be a UTI which can be treated with antibiotics. Treacle had this earlier in the year, and had similar symptoms. Once treatment started she soon picked up and got back to her normal self. Good luck tomorrow at the vets, vibes for your girl, and a big hug for you too xxx

Pets mum said:

So sorry to hear about Lillian Craig. Really hope it turns out to be a UTI which can be treated with antibiotics. Treacle had this earlier in the year, and had similar symptoms. Once treatment started she soon picked up and got back to her normal self. Good luck tomorrow at the vets, vibes for your girl, and a big hug for you too xxx

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Thank you Pets mum - thank you for reassurance and reinforcing Nap91's diagnosis.
Thank you for your vibes
CRaig xx

Slight update - 8:30pm. Lillian still extremely wet underneath but the flamzene seems to be preventing any scalding - as the skin is healthy and pink.
Just given her some metacam to help with any discomfort and also given her a couple of small syringes of water - not really masses, but fluids. She is lightly picking at food but no real interest - which is not Lillian.
Craig