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my male bun got nervous on Gentle Bonding

Happy Hopping

Wise Old Thumper
I was doing stress bonding for 3 sessions. i.e., I put both buns (male + female) on my bath tub. It's quite smooth, they both get nervous, but I did put a piece of plastic board between them most of the time

Then just today, I read about Gentle Bonding on both buns. So I put a big towel in the kitchen, as the kitchen is a neutral territory. I then put a big plate w/ carrot + leaves + 4 slice of banana coins.

Take Andi to the area, she starts eating the treats. Take Fudgie to the same area, and he got quite nervous. He takes a few bites on the carrot leaves, but he just want to get out of there. I have to hold him from leaving. The other one is very naturally adopting to the kitchen area. She eats her 2 banana coin, and want to jump over to the other side of the plate to eat the other 2 coins.

In the end, I took Fudgie back upstair. And he's eating the same carrot leaves that was just now in the kitchen area. I don't know what to try next. Any suggestion?

the only good news is, neither one try to jump on the other, Andi eats the treats, and Fudgie eats a bit of the treats if I hold it just in front of him
 
I wonder if there was something about the kitchen that was making him nervous? Do you have any other neutral areas you can try them in?
 
it's actual that 54 page guide that tells me to use the kitchen, which is an indoor neutral area. I can do the bath tub, but that's stress bonding.

The only other netutral area that he never been to, would be the backyard.
 
It may be worth trying the kitchen again, but put Fudgie in first. It sounds like it was the presence of Andi that made him nervous. Nothing bad actually happened there, and if neither rabbit has been there on their own, it is still neutral. They need time to get used to each other properly. Rabbits don't read books on bonding, unfortunately, so there isn't a precise method. Some chasing and scuffles are normal as they get to know each other. They need to have somewhere they can get away from each other if they need to, and you need to be prepared to separate them if there is more action than a bit of fur pulling.
 
that's an interesting idea. Tomorrow night, I'll put Fudgie there by himself for a few min., see how he reacts, and let him eat the treats first. thanks for the tips
 
so I make some progress tonight. My male bun was stressed just by himself in the kitchen. But after 1/2 hr. or so, he calms down and the 2 buns stays at the kitchen for a while. So what I did is "False Grooming"

All I need to know is: Does "False Grooming" works? from that guide I read, what I did is I groom 1 bun w/ my hand, then I use that same hand to groom the other bun, and vice versa. And I keep doing this back and forth to trick each bun thinking that the other one is grooming him. Can each one of them really smell the scent from my hand and think it's from the other bun grooming him/her?
 
I'd agree with putting fudge in first and having another go.
It's important to note that some nervousness is perfectly normal - he's going in to a brand new situation with a rabbit he doesn't know and, as far as he's concerned, could hurt him. He needs to stay with her long enough to learn that it's going to be alright. It doesn't matter if she eats his half of the food or mounts him or anything, as long as neither one is actually hurting the other.
I'm in the process of bonding my pair at the moment and my girl started off incredibly nervous, putting as much distance between the two of them as possible. As unpleasant as it was to watch, we made the area smaller to force them together. Over time she's gone from sitting frozen to the spot terrified, to hopping around completely unconcerned by him - it just takes time for a more nervous rabbit to gain confidence but that won't happen without forcing them in to an uncomfortable situation.

For what it's worth, I'm only doing mine in sessions because the buck is still a bit hormonal and I don't feel confident leaving them together. If both your rabbits were spayed/neutered more than about 8 weeks ago then I'd try bonding all in one go. If you have two days off together then start early on the first day and don't leave them until you have to go to work again.

ETA: I haven't ever tried false grooming but I've heard good things about putting a little pureed banana on each rabbit's forehead to encourage them to actually groom each other. Generally though I think if the bonding is going smoothly (ie, no fighting) then it's best to leave them to do things in their own time with a true understanding of what's happening.
 
they did try to come really close to each other at a somewhat fast speed, so I stop it. As I don't know what would happen if they try to fight or not. So my plan for now is for them to smell and get to know ea. other for at least 7 sessions, then take them outside and if they get along
 
Trying lots of different things in different settings may just be unsettling both rabbits and making bonding impossible. They do need to be able to sort it out between them, and that means they have to be together at some point and on their own terms. Sometimes you just have to sit and watch while they do their thing. Just be there to intervene if they start to draw blood. Some chasing, running away, mounting and fur pulling is quite normal. It takes time to sort out any relationship, and rabbits are no different.
 
I agree. IN the past many years, since 2007, that's how I bond them. Let them chase each other w/ some fur pulling all over the backyard. This bonding, I have decided to reduce fur pulling or fighting. To that end, I want them to smell each other and get to know ea. other. Both buns are tame

In the last bonding w/ my male bun to his senior girlfriend last year, it only takes 3 sessions to bond, she just passed away the other month, so I adopt this new bun. So for now, if they can smell each other and spend some time together in small space at least for 1 week, then let them chase each other in the backyard should make things easier. What do you think?
 
I agree with shimmer. Some unpleasantness is normal and you can't always stop it. Trying to stop it can just make everything take longer.

With each of my bonds I've had the rabbits live next to each other for a few weeks so they're pretty familiar with each other. The first bond all three just cuddled up and were fine straight away. The second I had big fights and bullying for a few hours even in a really small space. The bond I'm doing at the moment seemed really friendly through the run panels but when put together the dynamic changed a lot and the female got really nervous.

My takeaway is that being familiar with each other ahead of time can help make the rabbits a little less nervous when they get together because they're not being plonked in with a total stranger, but ultimately it won't change the dynamic between the rabbits. If they need to fight it out they will.
 
I wish I have the setup you do, that they can live next to each other.

anyhoo, this is an update: I put them in the kitchen w/ treats on plate every night for the past few nights. The female seems quite relax, I can tell from her posture that she lay down and let me "false groom" her. The male is stiff, he's bosy and did nip the female once per night in the past 2 night

And when I groom him, he won't lay down, so they did have time to smell each other for the past 4 to 5 nights. The male is still stressed from being in the kitchen, at least for the first 1/2 hr. So I don't know if this is still consider as gentle bonding or stress bonding. But a setting in the kitchen w/ treats on dish seems much prefer than bath tub stress bonding

Now I do have a quick question: am I correct that confine them in a kitchen area is much easier to manage than let them chase each other in the back yard? because if they fight, I can stop it much easier in a kitchen?

if so, what's next on these 2? just keep doing this for the next few weeks? the bonding time is about 20 min. w/ the last 2 times, my male bun nip the other one on the cheek, so I stop it right away
 
Personally I'd keep them together for several hours at a time rather than short periods. With that second bond of mine I mentioned, my male was really aggressive every time he got near the two girls, it was only after about four or five hours of asserting his dominance that he started to relax.

How are you intervening when he nips her? Has it drawn blood?

I'd definitely stick with the kitchen. Initially I let mine out together in the living room but the female had too much space to run away and avoid him. Once we restricted the area they were forced to interact more and the relationship progressed much quicker.
 
but how can leave them in the kitchen? as soon as I am NOT holding on my male bun, he hops forward try to nip the other bun. There is no blood though. So in small area chasing, she can get seriously injured.
 
As long as there's no blood a bit of nipping is normal bonding behaviour and you may just have to leave them to scrap it out a bit. As I say, with that second bond of mine the buck was very aggressive but once he felt he'd completely asserted himself as the boss he calmed right down and they were a happy trio for the rest of his days.
I'd be on standby with a badminton racket or colander with a handle, something that you can put in front of his face if you feel you have to get in the way, but don't split them unless he's actually going to cause harm.

You could look at putting them both in a small box in the car and taking them for a drive (with someone who can sit and watch them and intervene if necessary). I've heard of people have good luck with that technique as the rabbits are both bothered more about the situation than they are about each other.
 
As BattleKat said - you need to leave them to sort things out between themselves. They can't bond if they never actually meet or you are always holding one of them - it may make a successful bond less likely as you are introducing additional stress factors every time they are together.

Maybe have a towel or blanket ready to throw over them if there is an actual fight. Fur pulling, chasing and nipping is normal initially and should pass in the first couple of days or so.
 
can they smell the other's scent? if so, in what distance? can they do it in a few feet?

Tonight was the ??th attempted bonding, and there is 1 nip each bun do to the other. It's very hard to stop, yelling at them didn't help. They were actually together quite calm for nearly 1 hr., and then they nip each other
 
I honestly don't think being able to smell each other would make much of a difference at this point but you could try switching their used litter trays up to give them each a chance to have a really good sniff of the other.

The hour of calm sounds really positive even if they did nip each other after that - just stick with it and don't separate them unless you absolutely have to.
 
I found that adding a pile of grass or greens whenever trouble started was a good distraction.
 
that's what I did. There is a plate of my garden grow carrot w/ leaves at the top in the kitchen area. I feel like I'm in a stalemate scenario. So in the evening I start w/ 2 buns in the kitchen. The female bun will start to eat the banana and the carrot. I'll groom both buns. But I can sense that the male bun wants to jump onto the female bun. The female bun is very tame, lying on the floor, let me groom her. The male bun is not willing to sit at the lay down positiion when I groom him.

Eventually once he tries to nip the other bun, I stop them. But this is a stalemate scenario.

In the past 20+ yr., I let bondings take place in the backyard, so there is a lot of chasing, but some fight w/ fur and eventually they bond. I can go back to that. But those fight are hard to stop as it happens very fast.
 
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